the fuzzler Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Having struggled to get the bodies off too many loco's, having put the 153 away for fear of breaking something, and looking at the Kestrel dcc ditting guide and thinking "here we go again", isnt it time to start pressing manaufactueres for an easy to remove body system ? Even just a few screws would make things easier. As DCC is taking off, more and more people need access to the mechanism. Even the DC brigade should take the bodies off now and then for a check and a lube. We've got the high quality mechanisms we asked for, we've got a start with DCC fitted/Ready, and we've got the extra detail. How about a move for an easy to remove body, where we don't run the risk of bit breaking ? Screws would be preferable to the tight and risky interference/clip fit that we seem to have with most diesels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted October 22, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2009 Having struggled to get the bodies off too many loco's, having put the 153 away for fear of breaking something, and looking at the Kestrel dcc ditting guide and thinking "here we go again", isnt it time to start pressing manaufactueres for an easy to remove body system ? Even just a few screws would make things easier. As DCC is taking off, more and more people need access to the mechanism. Even the DC brigade should take the bodies off now and then for a check and a lube. We've got the high quality mechanisms we asked for, we've got a start with DCC fitted/Ready, and we've got the extra detail. How about a move for an easy to remove body, where we don't run the risk of bit breaking ? Screws would be preferable to the tight and risky interference/clip fit that we seem to have with most diesels. Part of the problem seems to be that it dosnt matter how Hornby et al do the body fixings, someone is going to complain. Completely agree with you that the screw fitted approach is definitely a much better way of doing things (for a start I have a fair few older dmus (particually 158s) on which the clips holding the sides to the chassis have degraded over time resulting in the sides bowing out, Heljan stuff is often the same. This is not a problem if using screws in the corners!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 You mean going back to the way that Trix, Hornby Dublo and Triang used to secure the bodies in the 1960s. Brass screw direct into a bush in the roof, or into a captive brass nut for Triang, and a steel screw direct into a tapped bush in the diecast metal body for HD and Trix. Yup, got plenty of those. The manufacturers stopped as it was more expensive to do it that way because it required additional components and extra assembly time. It might only be a penny or two more costly, per model but in a year's production it all mounts up. I agree that taking models apart is a skill these days. Perhaps what is needed is much clearer instructions on how to get the bodies off. They could even put videos on their home web sites showing how it's done. That would cost them less and a picture speaks a thousand words, provided it's a sensible picture. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Nest time there is an improvements poll be sure to put 'ease of body removal / ease of access to decoder socket and suitably sized void to take decoder' into the mix; along with full circuit diagram of any board(s). For decoder socket and void access on diesel and electric types, I favour either a clip in panel following prototype panel joints or natural break lines in the prototype, or a void in the underside of the fuel tank/underframe equipment boxes which most bogie types possess. Given the existing chassis layouts of centre motor drives I imagine a removeable roof panel would be simplest to implement. As for the body mounting of diesel and electric plastic shells, four screws through holes in a cast frame engaging in strongly mounted threaded inserts in the body work is the way to go. No need to augment with clips. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
47707 Holyrood Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I like the Bachmann 37's. Remove 6 screws and then the body literally just lifts/slides off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Depot Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Yes but the Bachmann 37 is not the best, the four screws almost under the sprung buffers are not ideal and always run the risk of a buffer getting knocked/breaking off.. Anyway its not just about taking the models apart, putting them back together again is just as much fun as anyone who has a Hornby Cl56 will know when trying to get the lights to work afterwards! cheers Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted October 22, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2009 Yes but the Bachmann 37 is not the best, the four screws almost under the sprung buffers are not ideal and always run the risk of a buffer getting knocked/breaking off.. Anyway its not just about taking the models apart, putting them back together again is just as much fun as anyone who has a Hornby Cl56 will know when trying to get the lights to work afterwards! cheers Keith The 153 is something of a pain in that regard as well, with one light unit attached to the body and the other to the chassis (so you have to carefully align the holes in the body with the lights without the other unit falling out. real pain that model! (and the amount of times I've had to take the body on and off so far is quite a few, with at least one more to go!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul-H Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 The best or should that be the worsed I have done is one of the new Bachmann Standard 4MT tender locos 2,6,0 The body is only held on by 2 screws one each end and they did not fit the breaks so nothing was in the way of the screws so should have been a nice simple job. Trouble was they had 4 or 5 plastic pipes going from the body to the chassis and they had been glued in place, how are you supposed to seperate the chassis from the body when they clue the interconecting pipework in place. Fortunatly Bachmann glue is not the best so I was able to tease the joint untill they came away, not every one is going to be that lucky. What a stupid idea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Depot Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Fortunatly Bachmann glue is not the best so I was able to tease the joint untill they came away, not every one is going to be that lucky. What a stupid idea. Wish that was the case when they stick the cab windows in! Tried removing the windows out of a cl37 but almost broke them so ended up giving up..... Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted October 26, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2009 When I started putting decoders into my locomotives I thought the biggest problem would be where to put the decoder or dealing with split chassis. However I agree that the removal of the body or tender top has usually proved difficult. Many of my US locomotives come with excellent diagrams showing where the screws are but even then it can be very difficult. On a Bachmann K4 the screw was so tight I had to drill it out (damaging the dcc ready wiring in the process). On a Bachmann Ma&Pa 4-6-0 I removed every screw on the loco and I still couldn't get the body off(I have since been told that the best way to get the body off that loco is don't bother trying!). One with screws and clips (Doodlebug) confused me initially but fortunately the fact that excess glazing glue was known to cause the body to stick was well documented thanks to a Google search. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Charon Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Well, I'm admitting defeat, and sending my (Farish) 108 off to be chipped (along with my Terrier), purely because the body(bodies) is(are) proving... difficult to get off, and I'm wary of breaking it(them). On the other hand, the (Farish) class 37 and Warship were just wonderfully easy. As for Dapol, the Q1 was reasonably easy, and the 9F wasn't too bad. The B17, on the other hand, is awkward because of the position of the (easily breakable) handrails... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochinvar Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 With the current range of highly-detailed steam outline models,it's well-nigh impossible to remove a body for chip-fitting without inflicting some sort of colateral damage. For tender locos,the answer might lie in fitting the decoder in the tender,as now used in some Hornby products. DR Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 With the current range of highly-detailed steam outline models,it's well-nigh impossible to remove a body for chip-fitting without inflicting some sort of colateral damage. For tender locos,the answer might lie in fitting the decoder in the tender,as now used in some Hornby products. DR Given the size of modern decoders I don't understand why more vendors don't put them somewhere sensible, like say in the inner centre of the fuel tank and directly accessible. Ok its sort of excusable in N as space is at a premium, but there isn't much excuse in larger scales. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adge-peanuts Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Thats a sound idea. Would make life so much easier too!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragtag Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Can only agree that some improvement is needed. Having wrestled with my 153 for a good half hour or so, I finally got the body off with only one small piece snapped from the underframe (and easily repaired). Feeling smug in my victory, I plugged in the chip, snapped the body back on and sent it off round the track for a test. It was only as the tail lights disappeared into the fiddle yard that I realised with creeping horror I'd forgotten to fit the passengers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted November 8, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 8, 2009 I like the Bachmann 37's. Remove 6 screws and then the body literally just lifts/slides off. As long as you remember to remove the MU connectors first..... The latest rash of limited ed's (REx DRS37/5, Modrail NR37 and WCRC37) all have the MU connector fitted at the factory. Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoover50008 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Agree bodies are a pain, Now with 21 pin decoders available these could easily be fitted into a diesel loco fuel tank to avoid removing the body, alternatively supply all locos DCC fitted. No problem for the DC brigade as the decoders will work on DC. E Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Agree bodies are a pain, Now with 21 pin decoders available these could easily be fitted into a diesel loco fuel tank to avoid removing the body, alternatively supply all locos DCC fitted. No problem for the DC brigade as the decoders will work on DC. E As Peco found out - that's a bad assumption. DCC decoders work providing - Your DC controller puts out smooth not pulsed DC - You have no electric track cleaners - You have no HF lighting units Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6029 King Stephen Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 With one recent exception, I haven't found it difficult to remove Hornby and Bachmann steam loco bodies to install a decoder and then re-assemble them. The exception was the new style Britannia. Taking it out of the box for the first time, I was amazed at all the fined detail. I then looked at the instructions to see how to take it apart and everything went according to plan. I installed my decoder, tested it and then started to re-assemble it. There is a lug on the rear of the chassis that is supposed to fit into the loco body and the front of the chassis then simply lowers into position. Could I get it to fit back in as easily as it came out? Could I hell. After much wrestling with the chassis it still seemed very high at the back and would not fit inside the buffer area at the front of the loco. The fixed rear bogie doesn't help either because it makes it very difficult to align the lug with the rear of the loco body and the chassis never seemed to go back far enough into the body to clear the front buffer area. After an hour or so I managed to get it done but at the cost of the delicate 90 degree detailing that connected the motion to the body. These were either bent beyond repair or had broken off the part that locates in the body. The loco performed really well and the level of detail on this model surpasses anything before it and its absence of the damaged items is not too noticeable, although the parts that used to be detachable are now permanently glued to the body. If I was to get another one, I think I would plump for the DCC Fitted version despite the higher cost. Hopefully, Hornby will start to transfer the decoder socket from the loco to the tender for all its tender locos, especially those that are already fitted with a lead between loco and tender. Regards, Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40192 Posted December 4, 2009 Share Posted December 4, 2009 An interesting topic....... Some bodies are more difficult than others, but I do at least 6 per month, while detailing locos for myself and others, and I have to say, practice makes perfect. Different types have different problems, but most can be overcome. Sure I have had my fair share of snapped cab steps, and broken pipes etc, but not for a long time now. If its a model you've never stripped before, take your time, and if too difficult, down tools, have a brew, and try again later. Try it......... it works!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neal Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 I agree with most comments, the 4 CEP body is on clips with two very close to the ends of the body moulding. These are very difficult to release. My worst nightmare was removing the body from Hornby class 50 Edward Elgar. The moving louvre blades fixed to body fit into a recess on the chassis casting, and unless the body is pulled upwards perfectly squarely, there is a chance the louvre mechanism may be damaged. Three hours later, having found and re-mounted about 20 blades into the louvre mechanism, my loco was reassembled after decoder fitting - not fun! Bachmann Cl 25 and 45 are easy, similarly Bachmann Jubilee and Standard 5 are also straightforward. I would encourage the location of DCC sockets in tenders, as this is normally an easier install, and frees up loco space for weight or greater detail - e.g. smokebox detail for locos with opening smokebox doors!!?? N Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohninAustria Posted December 5, 2009 Share Posted December 5, 2009 Given the size of modern decoders I don't understand why more vendors don't put them somewhere sensible, like say in the inner centre of the fuel tank and directly accessible. This sounds like a good idea, but the fuel tank is often the best place for a speaker, so you need to ask the manufacturers to design the loco with sound and DCC in mind. There should be ample space for a decoder using the new NMRA PluX standards for dimensions of the decoder and socket size (see last page in NMRA document). There should also be a reasonable space for a bass reflex speaker. As we move forward, I would expect all the decoder manufacturers to produce decoders to the latest NMRA PluX standard, which do specify actual physical size. This will make it easy for the loco manufacturers to provide the right space for the decoder. Perhaps we also need a standard for speaker as well? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold mudmagnet Posted December 5, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 5, 2009 I would agree that the screw option is the simplest from our point of view. I have converted a few Bachmann locos (class 25, 47, 108) and the Hornby 50. I find the 50 the hardest to remove the body - the clips are awkward to 'unclip' and then require a bit of 'gentle force' to pull away from the chassis. A reasonable grip is required onto the chassis and have in the process loosened the boxes under the chassis (no major problem as these can be glues back, but still a pain). The Bachmann come apart far more easily and clearly a better solution. The only difficulty with the class 108 was being able to get the screws back in when re-assembled as the screws are under the bogies and therefore foudn easiest to remove the bogie, fit the screw and then re-fit the bogie. I like the idea about the decoder being under the chassis, but this does not help if you want to fit a sound decoder and speaker. If the manufacturers went down this route, would they make removing the body more difficult? At the end the day, the manufacturers are interested in keeping the manufacturing time as quick as possible and thus keeping the costs as low as possible. Clipping a body into position on the production line is quick and easy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoover50008 Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 What a delight, spent Christmas afternoon fighting with the body on a Bachmann 66 great fun trying to get at the screws under the bogie frame. When I finally got them out did the clips under the cab want to release -no. Still only broke off one set of steps and a lubricator . Should have watched the Queens speech instead. Agree someting needs to be done. Merry Christmas. E Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dickens Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Must have some bad luck waiting me. Have just taken the body off a Bachmann red shed, taken off the blanking plate, put in a 21-pin Silver+ Lenz decoder and replaced the body. All done without a hitch. 4 screws loosened and the body came off like a dream. Train runs like a dream. As I said, I must have some bad luck waiting for me! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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