Dapol Fruit D derailment issues

[ktundu99]

Apologies of this is a repeat, but I don't think it is...

 

I've just received an order from Dapol, among it a Fruit D van. While it's a beautiful model (by my standards at least), it derails on just about any curve. I spent some time trying to work out why, and it appears that the flanges on the wheels are *miniscule* - if I push the middle of the side of the van while it's sat on the rails, half the time it won't tip over at all, it'll just slip off the rails. To make matters worse, the axleboxes seem to be further apart than they should be so the van doesn't always ride level and one wheel rides up rather easily allowing it to continue in a straight line rather than following a curve. I've tried substituting other wheelsets with larger flanges and this alleviates the problem somewhat but doesn't solve it completely. My questions are these:

 

Has anyone else had similar problems with this van, and how have you solved it?

 

I think something with a wheelbase this long should really have some kind of compensation, but I have no idea how to go about adding it to such a vehicle, does anyone have any experience in this area?

 

Cheers in advance

 

Sam

[Dad]

I too have a Dapol Fruit D.  It suffers from the very same issue you mention.  Very easily derailed almost at random on my layout when other wagons, trucks and coaches run perfectly.

 

It's the only Dapol item I have, and it's put me off ever buying anything else from their range.

 

It now sits on a disused siding with the couplings removed, looking like a dumped, un-needed item of rolling stock - which it is.  

[gwrrob]

I have several of these bought from the first batch and they run nicely on my curves.Have you checked the back to backs on the wheels.Voice your concern in an email to Dapol.

 

[andyman7]

The body moulding is the old Hornby Dublo 'super detail' one later made by Wrenn. Wrenn examples made after 1972 run on pintpoint axles. Although the Wrenn/HD underframe is not as detailed, it is made of metal and it does run properly. Unlike some other Wrenn models the Fruit D can still be bought at modest cost through the usual internet trading channels.

[81C]

Dapol wheels should not be a problem as long as you check the BTB but some of their chassis on long wheel base wagons are a bit over size between the bearing cups there is an easy fix throw them in the bin as I did and treat your self to some Parkside kits, SIMPLES !!!. 

[davknigh]

It might be worth checking to see if all four wheels are in the same plane by placing the wagon on a truly flat surface (or as near as you can get).  If the wheels are not all making contact that will probably be the source of your problem. I know some Dapol wagons have their underframe secured by a single screw. If this is over tight or the bottom of the wagon is not flat this might also be the cause of your derailment.

 

HTH

 

David

[Mallard60022]

Don't be put off other Dapol stuff. For example, their Grampus wagons and bits of Grampus Wagons can be made into useful items. They can be cheap and cheerful but possibly some are a bit off such as being incorrect in detail?

Phil

[Dunsignalling]

I act as unofficial C&W inspector on a large layout, i.e. nobody else wants to do it. Goods stock totals 150+ vehicles, the track is Code 100 Peco and we began to notice disproportionally more derailments of Dapol wagons than other makes when a significant batch of new ones was added a couple of years ago. 

 

Anything that derailed got the b-t-b's checked (most were correct) and a little sticker was applied branding it as a potential trouble-maker.  

 

Those that continued to misbehave were sin-binned and I picked half a dozen at random and replaced the wheels with Bachmann ones (the current sort with metal axles). All have behaved perfectly ever since and the process has been repeated as necessary. Transferring wheels taken from "rogue" wagons to ones that hadn't previously given trouble didn't always transfer the problem but all had been mixed up so it is likely that it only took one wheelset to cause the problem and I occasionally picked two "good" pairs.

 

Not all Dapol wheels are troublesome by any means, but I have replaced enough to conclude that, for no obvious reason, a significant number do play up. 

 

John

[31A]

It isn't the old Dublo / Wrenn body at all; the roof is a separate part whereas the Dublo body moulding is all one piece; the steps under the doors are different, and the ends are also better detailed.  I've got a Dapol one (and a Wrenn, and a Dublo for that matter!), and it runs fine on my Peco Code 75 permanent way.  I'd suggest as others have that you check the back to back measurement, unless Dapol have changed their wheels since I bought mine - I bought mine soon after they were first released.

[TheSignalEngineer]

My Dapol Fruit D runs perfectly well on Peco Code 75 but I have found some inconsistent back to backs on Dapol wheels, as I have on Bachmann and Hornby. The other thing I noticed on one set, can't remember which manufacturer, was that one wheel didn't fit centrally on the axle so ran with a pronounced wobble which meant that most of the time only three wheels were in contact with the track. 

Also the end of the axle has a different profile between the manufacturers so when re-wheeling old plastic wheels I have found it a matter of trial and error. Some wagons run better on Dapol wheelsets while others need Hornby, some axleboxes need reprofiling and I've had Bachmann wagons which just wouldn't run smoothly or stay on the track with Bachmann replacement wheels but were perfectly happy when changed for Dapol.

[jwealleans]

I built a Toad D from a Dapol kit a few years ago for the club exhibition layout. When I took it along to the first show, it wouldn't go round the (Code 100) circuit and stay on the rails. That was with the supplied Dapol wheelset fitted. I removed them and replaced with Chinese Hornby wheels and it has run without fault ever since.

 

I bin Dapol wheels on sight since. If you compared the profile to the Hornby ones there was a pronounced curved shoulder between wheel face and flange on the Dapol wheel, which I think helped them ride over trackwork.

 

Of course they may have altered the profile since, or I may have had a bad set. I haven't chosen to investigate further.

[Jenny Emily]

My Dapol fruit D misbehaves. I tried weighting it with lots of scrap lead, but it showed no improvement. It sits in a siding, but I will try replacing its wheels and see if that helps.

[ktundu99]

I built a Toad D from a Dapol kit a few years ago for the club exhibition layout. When I took it along to the first show, it wouldn't go round the (Code 100) circuit and stay on the rails. That was with the supplied Dapol wheelset fitted. I removed them and replaced with Chinese Hornby wheels and it has run without fault ever since.

 

I bin Dapol wheels on sight since. If you compared the profile to the Hornby ones there was a pronounced curved shoulder between wheel face and flange on the Dapol wheel, which I think helped them ride over trackwork.

 

Of course they may have altered the profile since, or I may have had a bad set. I haven't chosen to investigate further.

 

I've since gone over my entire collection of Dapol stock (some 30ish vehicles) and many of the more recently purchased vehicles (since about 2011) seem to have far less well-defined flanges, though some are perfectly ok - I wonder if they've had a duff batch recently...

[gismorail]

I can relate to your problem although not with the fruit van but with some of the Dapol normal wagons which I too have had derailment problems. I have normally found that it is due to a very slight twist within the chassis which in many cases is caused by a badly fitted weight which on inspection has become bent which in turn has been as a result of the 'over sized' retaining screw being badly fitted. I have found that the best way to cue the problem is to remove the weight and add my own in the form of lead shot glued within the van body, this also gets over the other problem that Dapol wagons that on the whole they are far to light in the first place. 

[andyman7]

It isn't the old Dublo / Wrenn body at all; the roof is a separate part whereas the Dublo body moulding is all one piece; the steps under the doors are different, and the ends are also better detailed.  I've got a Dapol one (and a Wrenn, and a Dublo for that matter!), and it runs fine on my Peco Code 75 permanent way.  I'd suggest as others have that you check the back to back measurement, unless Dapol have changed their wheels since I bought mine - I bought mine soon after they were first released.

Thanks for the correction, I didn't know the Dapol one was different. I still like the the Wrenn/HD one though 

[phil-b259]

i have had issues before with Dapols 6 wheeled milk tanks derailing and found that swapping the outermost wheel sets cured the issue. When examined closely there was definitely something different about the wheel profile compared to the Bachmann and Hornby equivalents.

 

As such replacing the wheels on the fruit D may well solve people's problems

[Il Grifone]

Some time ago ago I bought some loose wheelsets (at a Grifone friendly price). They were sold as Bachmann and Hornby, but were definitely not the latter. Investigation showed them not to be Bachmann either and I suspect they are in fact Dapol. I found that around 50% of them had a pronounced wobble. This is obviously not conducive to smooth running, especially with a long wheelbase vehicle like a FRUIT D. I found the cause to be the plastic insulating bush and the cure was to cut this off flush with the wheel itself, using a sharp knife (Swann-Morten) and great attention to the fingers. On reassembling and setting the back to back they ran true and gave no further trouble.

 

In the specific case of the FRUIT D, after ensuring that the vehicle sits flat on a sheet of glass, I would check that the axles run freely with minimal play in the axleboxes. Any tendency to slop about will cause the axles to not be parallel to each other. This can be solved by changing axles with something a little longer (the length varies between makes) or equalising the underframe with internal bearings - MJT do these  http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/  or they can be made from strip metal. Mine give no trouble, but they do run on Dublo underframes (modification is necessary to fit the Dapol body). These are incorrect for a FRUIT D, having been designed for Dublo's tinplate OPEN C and MINK D and are marked for replacement (Parkside?).  

 

Apologies for the use of GWR codes for BR wagons (but see below    ).

Edited April 17, 2016 by Il Grifone

[Dunsignalling]

Some time ago ago I bought some loose wheelsets (at a Grifone friendly price). They were sold as Bachmann and Hornby, but were definitely not the latter. Investigation showed them not to be Bachmann either and I suspect they are in fact Dapol. I found that around 50% of them had a pronounced wobble. This is obviously not conducive to smooth running, especially with a long wheelbase vehicle like a FRUIT D. I found the cause to be the plastic insulating bush and the cure was to cut this off flush with the wheel itself, using a sharp knife (Swann-Morten) and great attention to the fingers. On reassembling and setting the back to back they ran true and gave no further trouble.

 

In the specific case of the FRUIT D, after ensuring that the vehicle sits flat on a sheet of glass, I would check that the axles run freely with minimal play in the axleboxes. Any tendency to slop about will cause the axles to not be parallel to each other. This can be solved by changing axles with something a little longer (the length varies between makes) or equalising the underframe with internal bearings - MJT do these  http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/  or they can be made from strip metal. Mine give no trouble, but they do run on Dublo underframes (modification is necessary to fit the Dapol body). These are incorrect for a FRUIT D, having been designed for Dublo's tinplate OPEN C and MINK D and are marked for replacement (Parkside?).  

 

Apologies for the use of GWR codes for BR wagons (but see below    ).

The wheels you bought may or may not have been made by Dapol but none of the ones I binned had shown any trace of wobble or eccentricity. All the wagons (including the PasFruit D) ran freely when rolled up and down a length of plain track. The only problem was the tendency of a significant proportion of them to derail on points.

 

All the Dapol underframes I have come across have been plastic and have normal conical bearing holes as used by Bachmann and modern Hornby. Dapol have never (to my knowledge) used the old Hornby Dublo pattern bent metal supports with plain axles or the plastic replacements that were (I think) originated by Wrenn to accept pinpoints. 

 

I think an earlier contributor Phil in Post #16 may have correctly identified the issue as being the relative angles of the flange and wheel-tread which, upon closer inspection certainly differ from other makes. 

 

The fact that not all models were so affected suggests that the wheels were made on more than one machine or that they have been retooled at some time.

 

John

 

PS: The b-t-b's were the first thing I checked but the problem affected some vehicles on which they were correct.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[TheSignalEngineer]

i have had issues before with Dapols 6 wheeled milk tanks derailing and found that swapping the outermost wheel sets cured the issue. When examined closely there was definitely something different about the wheel profile compared to the Bachmann and Hornby equivalents.

 

As such replacing the wheels on the fruit D may well solve people's problems

I also had trouble with a milk tank. I bought two from the same delivery, one ran perfectly but the other derailed frequently. I checked the wheelsets and found the back-to-backs significantly different. When all were matched up the rouge one ran OK.

Edited April 17, 2016 by TheSignalEngineer

[Il Grifone]

The wheels you bought may or may not have been made by Dapol but none of the ones I binned had shown any trace of wobble or eccentricity. All the wagons (including the PasFruit D) ran freely when rolled up and down a length of plain track. The only problem was the tendency of a significant proportion of them to derail on points.

 

All the Dapol underframes I have come across have been plastic and have normal conical bearing holes as used by Bachmann and modern Hornby. Dapol have never (to my knowledge) used the old Hornby Dublo pattern bent metal supports with plain axles or the plastic replacements that were (I think) originated by Wrenn to accept pinpoints. 

 

I think an earlier contributor Phil in Post #16 may have correctly identified the issue as being the relative angles of the flange and wheel-tread which, upon closer inspection certainly differ from other makes. 

 

The fact that not all models were so affected suggests that the wheels were made on more than one machine or that they have been retooled at some time.

 

John

 

PS: The b-t-b's were the first thing I checked but the problem affected some vehicles on which they were correct.

 

That's very interesting. I would agree that all Dapol products have a plastic underframe. My two were acquired as unpainted bodies to replace damaged Dublo and Wrenn examples and fitted onto the old underframes. Neither has the plastic Wrenn pinpoint inserts. Problems with the angle between tread and flange could possibly be the problem, causing the wheel to ride up the rail, though It's not something I've had, even with Dublo sintered iron wheels, which have an atrocious profile - the tread is flat with the flange at 90 degrees to it and negligible curvature between the two - this should be a recipe for derailment, but still manages to stay on the track.

 

Could it be that the flanges are either too thick or too thin, as this will affect the back to back setting?

[Dad]

I too have a Dapol Fruit D.  It suffers from the very same issue you mention.  Very easily derailed almost at random on my layout when other wagons, trucks and coaches run perfectly.

 

It's the only Dapol item I have, and it's put me off ever buying anything else from their range.

 

It now sits on a disused siding with the couplings removed, looking like a dumped, un-needed item of rolling stock - which it is.  

As an update to my post above, I bought a pack of Bachmann spoked wagon wheels from Footplate in Kidderminster, and replaced the wheels on the Dapol Fruit D.

 

As a result, the wagon runs perfectly and is now a very sweet runner.

 

So there's definitely a problem with Dapol wagon wheels! 

[RobMG]

Just been reading this with interest. I have quite few Dapol 6 wheel milk tanks, all with original Dapol wheels. Just been checking to see why they a bit rough through points. I use Peco code 75 long points so the curves are not tight.

The back to backs were out on the worst ones. Re setting those is big improvement, but the worst problem is that some tend to rock on the centre axle, Removing the centre wheels cures this totally.  

I now intend to find a way of overcoming this without chucking the wheels away , or blaming the wheel profile.  It may be I will mount them slightly differently, but I will cure it.

Anyone who bins Dapol wheels on sight, please don't.  Parcel them up and post them to me, I will make them work.

 

Rob

Edited January 23, 2020 by RobMG
Because I made a spelling mistake

[brossard]

Fascinating discussion.  B2B is the first thing to check when a wagon derails.  I thought the twisted chassis theory interesting.  Fixing screws too tight can be a cause for derailment.

 

I would add that you could try springing the wheels by installing Bill Bedford's W iron kit: 

 

https://eileensemporium.com/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=category&task=listing&cid=4136&name=4mm-w-irons&Itemid=189

 

From what I read probably not required but a nice touch.

 

John

 

[davknigh]

I have a couple of Dapol wagons that I’ve managed to convince to run on P4 wheels with no springing or compensation but not without a struggle. The gunpowder van suffers from a massive screw used to hold the under frame in place that is usually over tightened which distorts the frame. Levelling the frame and adding a touch of weight up to 50g did the trick. The same applies  to the six wheel tank which also had a distorted frame. The main problem here is the centre wheel bearings which are too tight. Slacking the centre screw helped but it was necessary to open the gap further by using a “truck tuner” https://www.micromark.com/HO-Truck-Tuner_2 to give a little extra wiggle room. Weight was also added. The gunpowder van goes anywhere, the six wheel tank is still a bit fussy on anything less than the equivalent of a #6 turnout but that’s with P4 flanges. 
 

Cheers,

 

David

[The Johnster]

I rewheeled my Dap Fruit D with Baccy wheels, which failed to cure it of being an inveterate uncoupler, or of the habit of it’s coupling bars over- or under-riding those of coupled vehicles, the result being derailment of those vehicles, and/or buffer locking. 
 

As I came to the conclusion that the thing was incurable, realised that the planking is wrong, and culled all vehicles with moulded handbrake levers and mushroom buffers from the layout, it was given the opportunity of an exciting new career in landfill.  I intend replacing ut with a Parkside, unless somebody beats me to the punch with a credible RTR!