how long did Glasgow Queen Street keep station pilot duties

[GordonC]

I remember seeing the occasional class 26 in the station, did they just tend to bring coaching stock up and down to and from the carriage sidings at cowlairs at the start and end of services or was there work for them during the day too?

 

I presume the work dried up as coaching stock was replaced by sprinters in early 1990s.

 

was it about the same time that the carriage sidings at cowlairs closed too

[Mad McCann]

26s were indeed used on pilot work up to 1990; I certainly saw a few on that job myself. They would bring stock in and take it out at various points in the day and sometimes you might find a 20 acting as pilot. This wasn't all that regular though it did occur. Often, they would work their passage back to ED by giving the departing service a shove through the tunnel

[griffgriff]

Someone is going to have to help me with the detail but there was an interesting series of articles in 'Traction' several (10 plus) years ago written by a second man contemporary to the 1980s IIRC. I remember him recounting pilot duties around this neck of the woods and it was always a good read.

 

Griff

[mjkerr]

Yes, pretty much ended when Cowlairs closed 

26s were indeed used on pilot work up to 1990; I certainly saw a few on that job myself. They would bring stock in and take it out at various points in the day and sometimes you might find a 20 acting as pilot. This wasn't all that regular though it did occur. Often, they would work their passage back to ED by giving the departing service a shove through the tunnel

In all my visits to Glasgow Queen Street in the 1980s and 1990s I never saw the incoming detached loco push the outgoing service, except the north/south Inverness service where both locos were attached for reversing at Eastfield 

Non-ETH locos (such as Class 20, 26 37) were rare, but became more common due to poor loco reliability / availability once Eastfield took on (too much) almost all the Scottish passenger work 
The disadvantage of such a loco, would quite often have to leave the station area but would obtain the next empty set 
Whereas an ETH loco could be left in Platform 1 for its next duty 
However, many incoming locos also had to leave the station area for refuelling

[Bomag]

The last pilot at GQS I saw was 37011 in either the summer of 1985 or spring-ish 1987 before the shunt. In all cases I saw a pilot it never pushed the train while not being coupled to it - given the number of accidents with assisting locos dropping back and then rear ending the train I would not be surprised if it was prohibited through the tunnel.

[darrel]

There used to be one of the push pull arrivals from Aberdeen arrived about 1300hrs coupled inside the train engine was a sleeper coach the train loco would detach and a class 26 would couple on at take the coach to Cowlairs the train loco would then reattach. This was 1989 and 1990

[Matt]

Someone is going to have to help me with the detail but there was an interesting series of articles in 'Traction' several (10 plus) years ago written by a second man contemporary to the 1980s IIRC. I remember him recounting pilot duties around this neck of the woods and it was always a good read.

 

Griff

 

Yes there was a great series of articles about this - seem to recall it was about an Englishman redeployed to Eastfield in the 80s. I have copies of them somewhere in my pile.  If anyone needs I can probably look out and get the issue numbers.

M

[mjkerr]

There used to be one of the push pull arrivals from Aberdeen arrived about 1300hrs coupled inside the train engine was a sleeper coach the train loco would detach and a class 26 would couple on at take the coach to Cowlairs the train loco would then reattach. This was 1989 and 1990

Often simplified and the 47/7 would simply stay reattached to the sleeper, and take it to Cowlairs 

The 47/7 would then either visit Eastfield for exam or return 

However a few times the 47/7 would have to be swapped out with minutes to spare 

 

Equally, once the cascade of 47/7 locos had started many of the Aberdeen services were swapping over to 47/4 

This would require a pilot loco and then a replacement loco, but would quite often use the loco left by the early morning Glasgow - Inverness

[Strathyre]

I was based at Eastfield 1979-81 and during that time the loco which brought the train in banked the departing train without being coupled on. It dropped off the train shortly after leaving the north portal. The only time the banking loco was coupled on was when the train was being diverted via Springburn. The train would run in to the loop at Eastfield and the banking engine would then become the train engine.

 

If the loco involved was one of the pilots (engaged in moving stock in and out of Queen St for the whole shift and almost always a 27) it would normally bank the train out unless it was needed to carry out a shunt in the station.

 

Hope this helps

 

Paul

[GordonC]

was there a pattern to which arriving services would require the coaching stock to be serviced at Cowlairs rather than go straight out on a departing service?

 

I'd be interested in knowing the back issue numbers of traction for the eastfield articles if they're not too difficult to find

[Matt]

was there a pattern to which arriving services would require the coaching stock to be serviced at Cowlairs rather than go straight out on a departing service?

 

I'd be interested in knowing the back issue numbers of traction for the eastfield articles if they're not too difficult to find

 

I know where they are exactly... getting to them isn't as easy but its a job that needs doing anyway... i'll have a go later.

[Matt]

OK so my claim to knowing ​exactly​ where they were may not have been true but I did find them which in itself is no small achievement given current state of the railway room..

 

The series of articles was by a Paul Smith and he covered his railway days over many articles and across more than region. I only ever copied the articles on Scottish Region which started in Part 8 when he took the appointment as a secondman at Glasgow Eastfield:  references as follows:

Part 8, December 2002 Traction, p16

Part 9, Jan 03, p14

Part 10, Mar 03, p22

Part 11, Apr 03, p18

Part 12, May 03, p14

Part 13, Jun 03, p10?

Part 14, Jul 03, p14

Part 15, Aug 03, p22

Part 16, Sept 03, p30

Part 17, Oct 03, p16

Part 18, Nov 03, p16

Part 19, Dec 03, p16

at which point he headed back to Western Region to be a guard...

 

Its years since I've read them but I seem to recall some of the articles covering GQS movements amongst many others - I recall them being a very interesting and amusing read!  In fact having now found them I will devour them again.  In a few days I might be able to be more specific on the question you originally asked, or as a min can advise which articles cover GQS movements.

M

[mjkerr]

was there a pattern to which arriving services would require the coaching stock to be serviced at Cowlairs rather than go straight out on a departing service?

There weren't that many and varied by year 

 

As an example 

In the morning there was a Perth service which would run ECS to Cowlairs, and later run to Edinburgh to then perform an Inverness service 

An afternoon service would run from Edinburgh ECS to Cowlairs, and then perform the early evening service to Edinburgh and in turn the last service to Inverness 

The following year that was simplified with no cross over to/from Edinburgh (the Inverness service filled by the Euston service via Edinburgh) 

 

The main exception would be if the spare Oban / Fort William set was required 

Otherwise typically the set would just simply perform the next diagrammed service 

[Griffin Road]

The last pilot at GQS I saw was 37011 in either the summer of 1985 or spring-ish 1987 before the shunt. In all cases I saw a pilot it never pushed the train while not being coupled to it - given the number of accidents with assisting locos dropping back and then rear ending the train I would not be surprised if it was prohibited through the tunnel.

I'm with you on this Bomag . 11 was a regular ' shunter ' at QS . I travelled a lot during 84-87 and cannot remember a loco pushing out uncoupled as discussed .

 

Mike b

[young37215]

I'm with you on this Bomag . 11 was a regular ' shunter ' at QS . I travelled a lot during 84-87 and cannot remember a loco pushing out uncoupled as discussed .

 

Mike b

In the late 70's and early 80's, banking by the loco that brought the stock into the platform was commonplace at QS. I scored many new engines this way and used to sit in the middle of the train so as to get the stereo sound effect through the tunnel. The 40's on the Inverness and Aberdeen services were particularly noisy!

 

Precisely when banking ceased is not clear, my old move books suggest that it was the early 80's rather than mid 80's.

[GordonC]

OK so my claim to knowing ​exactly​ where they were may not have been true but I did find them which in itself is no small achievement given current state of the railway room..

 

The series of articles was by a Paul Smith and he covered his railway days over many articles and across more than region. I only ever copied the articles on Scottish Region which started in Part 8 when he took the appointment as a secondman at Glasgow Eastfield:  references as follows:

Part 8, December 2002 Traction, p16

Part 9, Jan 03, p14

Part 10, Mar 03, p22

Part 11, Apr 03, p18

Part 12, May 03, p14

Part 13, Jun 03, p10?

Part 14, Jul 03, p14

Part 15, Aug 03, p22

Part 16, Sept 03, p30

Part 17, Oct 03, p16

Part 18, Nov 03, p16

Part 19, Dec 03, p16

at which point he headed back to Western Region to be a guard...

 

Its years since I've read them but I seem to recall some of the articles covering GQS movements amongst many others - I recall them being a very interesting and amusing read!  In fact having now found them I will devour them again.  In a few days I might be able to be more specific on the question you originally asked, or as a min can advise which articles cover GQS movements.

M

 

Wow!!! thats fantastic!! You must have some organising system in place there for your magazines ... I wouldn't have been able to find any articles from the last 6 months as quickly as that in my pile!!!

[Griffin Road]

In the late 70's and early 80's, banking by the loco that brought the stock into the platform was commonplace at QS. I scored many new engines this way and used to sit in the middle of the train so as to get the stereo sound effect through the tunnel. The 40's on the Inverness and Aberdeen services were particularly noisy!

 

Precisely when banking ceased is not clear, my old move books suggest that it was the early 80's rather than mid 80's.

Hi ,

 

Maybe that's how I missed it then . Shame - must have been good fun .

 

Mike b

[Matt]

Wow!!! thats fantastic!! You must have some organising system in place there for your magazines ... I wouldn't have been able to find any articles from the last 6 months as quickly as that in my pile!!!

 

not exactly - had they been in the magazines I would never have found them... these were photocopies from magazines that are in one neat pile and are the only photocopies in the pile of magazines so only required looking for paper pile amongst magazine pile...

 

since posting this I have had chance to re-read the articles and they are a little earlier than I thought - seems around 1976-8 but a very good read nonetheless - some good stories about working with some real characters and some of the varied duties undertaken.

 

M

[Strathyre]

Hi ,

 

Maybe that's how I missed it then . Shame - must have been good fun .

 

Mike b

 

It was (from a footplate point of view - well, I liked it anyway!) but so long as the driver at the front knew his business - i.e. leave their throttle alone/very low power until the tunnel mouth where the incline started. It was a regular occurrence, when the train engine was crewed by Perth or Dundee crews for them to open up and scream off with the train as soon as they got the off from the guard - with the banker trying to play catchup.

 

Thankfully most drivers obeyed standing instructions that decreed that, should the banker lose physical contact with the train then the banking engine must be brought to an immediate halt then proceed to the next stop signal when the train was safely on its way - only once in two years did I have someone try to catch the back end of the train after losing it (in the tunnel at that!) and cured my constipation forever. I still shudder at the memory...

 

Paul

[pH]

Were any of the diesels used as bankers fitted with slip couplings, or did they all bank trains uncoupled? N15s and V1/V3s used as bankers had slip couplings on the front end. I have a very vague memory of an EE Type 1 (Class 20) fitted with one, but can't remember any details, not even if it was an Eastfield one.

[Matt]

in the articles I referred to earlier the author refers to times "chasing" behind leaving trains to catch up, mostly in Class 27s which would suggest they weren't coupled in any way.  He refers to his training from older drivers that need to keep close eye on train leaving and be quick to open the throttle and chase with aim of buffering back up to rear coach before halfway along platform length - any further and he was told to hang back and not attempt to bank.  These articles refer to late 70s.

M

[keefer]

Rare pic of a banking loco dropping off the back of a train:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/deadmans_handle/6638570557/in/photolist-b9PVLc-b7CpK4-7DkbaU-b88gPF

 

I'll look out the rules'n'regs from the ScR sectional appendix

[keefer]

have looked out the 1977 ScR Sectional Appendix.

 

p.159/160: Table J - Locomotives assisting in rear of trains - Rule Book Section H, Clause 3.20​:

 

 

The following page states that between QS and Cowlairs: F, P and ECS trains can be assisted, with condition U & subject to special instructions on p.242

Between Cowlairs and QS, ECS traiins with condition A

 

 

​p.242/243 (Local instructions between  Cowlairs & Queen Street (High Level):​

 

 

 

EDIT: forgot to say, the cl.27 push-pull trains were treated as a complete train and had their own instructions: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/57319-class-27-push-pulls-1970s/page-5&do=findComment&comment=2264593

 

EDIT again: to combine posts etc.

[keefer]

Were any of the diesels used as bankers fitted with slip couplings, or did they all bank trains uncoupled? N15s and V1/V3s used as bankers had slip couplings on the front end. I have a very vague memory of an EE Type 1 (Class 20) fitted with one, but can't remember any details, not even if it was an Eastfield one.

 

 

a pic of slip couplings in 1950 -  http://dewi.ca/trains/glasgow/trains.html

 

I've never heard of that (with diesels) before - presumably not too difficult to do as the instructions state that they were to be coupled but with no brake connections

[pH]

a pic of slip couplings in 1950 -  http://dewi.ca/trains/glasgow/trains.html

 

I've never heard of that (with diesels) before - presumably not too difficult to do as the instructions state that they were to be coupled but with no brake connections

 

Since I asked the question, I've tried without success to find a picture. It was about the time the last steam bankers (V1/V3s) were withdrawn, so 1962/3. From what I remember, it was an EE Type 1, with the rope for the slip coupling from the cab along the right (looking forward) side of the hood. I presume it was an Eastfield engine, for use out of Queen Street, but I'm not even sure about that.