Stoke Courtenay

[checkrail]

Winslow Hall emerging from Stoke Courtenay tunnel.

 

 

(You can see the curved plywood backscene here, meeting up with the angle of the rafters and sprung in behind the purlins.  Gave me a bit more loft space for the layout without having to have the track level too low.)

 

John C.

[checkrail]

The 6 wheel low siphon has been a favourite of mine since seeing one in RM on Ken Payne's Tyling Branch back in the late 50s.  I built one from a K's kit just over 50 years ago.  It was made from white metal and weighed a ton.  I had no idea that in their latter days K's had produced a plastic version, so acquiring the one below via eBay was a pleasant surprise.

 

It was nicely made up, but in need of a repaint.  It also rocked a little (don't we all) fore & aft on its centre axle.  I fixed this by opening out the centre axle boxes a little, but overdid it a bit leading to some bumpy running over the single slip.  A piece of springy wire melted into the plastic floor and bearing down on the centre axle soon fettled this.  Looks nice heading down the branch with the 45xx and B set.  Another subject for 'tail traffic' operations.

 

 

 

I also remember one featuring in RM's coverage of the influential EM gauge 'Portreath' layout in the 60s.

 

John C.

 

 

[81C]

Hi John that a nice Siphon I found 2 of them on a s/h stall at a show for £6 & a third for £7.50 on fleebay they look the part behind a Star

with clerestory or toplight coaches attached, I back date the layout sometimes with older types of loco's & stock for a bit of variety.

[TrevorP1]

John. I can't think how I've missed Stoke Courtenay up until now!

 

Really inspiring; based on one of my favourite parts of the country and an excellent use of space. It is going to be many months before I can start on my project (house to sell and garden building to erect!) but I know where to come for a fix! Great stuff.

 

Trevor.

[M.I.B]

Hi John that a nice Siphon I found 2 of them on a s/h stall at a show for £6 & a third for £7.50 on fleebay they look the part behind a Star

with clerestory or toplight coaches attached, I back date the layout sometimes with older types of loco's & stock for a bit of variety.

 

I pushed the life of one of my "Fs" a few years further by branding it as ENPARTS.   SLINN lists those which were so used.

 

I have two - the plastic one and the seriously heavy white-metal version.  One got remounted onto a modified Hornby 6 wheel LMS milk van chassis.  Runs much better.

 

Like you I have kept one for occasional trips back in time with some old beautifully painted Triang clerestories.

[checkrail]

John. I can't think how I've missed Stoke Courtenay up until now!

 

Really inspiring; based on one of my favourite parts of the country and an excellent use of space. It is going to be many months before I can start on my project (house to sell and garden building to erect!) but I know where to come for a fix! Great stuff.

 

Trevor.

 

Thanks for kind comment Trevor.  'Garden building' sounds promising! 

 

John.

[checkrail]

Today's pics are of the Earlsbridge branch train, just arrived at Stoke Courtenay ......

 

 

 

.... and then after the 5557 has run round the B-set (but before the loco lamp has been repositioned!)

 

 

 

John C.

 

 

.

 

[checkrail]

A couple of views of 8709.

 

 

 

And here's a current project, a Slater's toplight kit, in its very early stages.

 

 

And before anyone asks, no - I didn't pay £300 for one, as someone did yesterday evening on eBay!  (And another one went for £250.)  I paid about a fifth of that 4 or 5 years ago and stuck it away in a drawer - had a layout to build at that time!

 

I understand all the arguments as to why toplights might be problematical for the mainstream RTR suppliers (as was said for years about bullhead track), but the crazy prices these kits fetch say something, don't they?  It's beginning to remind me of the old line, "You're the 50th person I've told today - there's no demand for it".

 

(But RTR wishes aside, I've been intrigued by the recent rumours that Slater's might be about to take their 4mm scale kits back in-house.)

 

John C.

[St Enodoc]

And here's a current project, a Slater's toplight kit, in its very early stages.

 

toplight kit min.jpg

 

And before anyone asks, no - I didn't pay £300 for one, as someone did yesterday evening on eBay!  (And another one went for £250.)  I paid about a fifth of that 4 or 5 years ago and stuck it away in a drawer - had a layout to build at that time!

 

I understand all the arguments as to why toplights might be problematical for the mainstream RTR suppliers (as was said for years about bullhead track), but the crazy prices these kits fetch say something, don't they?  It's beginning to remind me of the old line, "You're the 50th person I've told today - there's no demand for it".

 

(But RTR wishes aside, I've been intrigued by the recent rumours that Slater's might be about to take their 4mm scale kits back in-house.)

 

John C.

Couldn't agree more John:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/94350-mid-cornwall-lines-1950s-western-region-in-00/page-59&do=findComment&comment=3152117

[The Stationmaster]

A couple of views of 8709.

 

575min.jpg

 

576min.jpg

 

And here's a current project, a Slater's toplight kit, in its very early stages.

 

toplight kit min.jpg

 

And before anyone asks, no - I didn't pay £300 for one, as someone did yesterday evening on eBay!  (And another one went for £250.)  I paid about a fifth of that 4 or 5 years ago and stuck it away in a drawer - had a layout to build at that time!

 

I understand all the arguments as to why toplights might be problematical for the mainstream RTR suppliers (as was said for years about bullhead track), but the crazy prices these kits fetch say something, don't they?  It's beginning to remind me of the old line, "You're the 50th person I've told today - there's no demand for it".

 

(But RTR wishes aside, I've been intrigued by the recent rumours that Slater's might be about to take their 4mm scale kits back in-house.)

 

John C.

 

The first $64,000 question for anyone doing a mass market.r-t-r version of a Toplight is 'which one guv, one which length of underframe?',  the second question is an even more awkward one and boils down to 'at what point in the vehicle's life?', and the third question for r-t0r manufacturers is 'how many different liveries did it carry?'. which also has to sit alongside the second question.  Regrettably such was the life story of the various toplight vehicles taht it quickly becomes very frightening for anybody thinking about them as a commercial proposition because very few pairs of people seem to want the same one at the same point in is overall life  judging by a past poll on RMweb.

 

Albeit a rather specialised conversion here are a couple of links to pics of the one which lasted longest in regular use, firstly as seen in its early years after conversion -

 

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/misc/misc_equip243.htm

 

and here it is in its final state

 

http://www.departmentals.com/photo/DW139

 

In between it ran in BR coaching stock maroon livery looking to be fairly much in original condition body wise but later, and before its final rebuild, most of the toplights had gradually been plated over .  Obviously an extreme example but if it tempted a manufacturer which version would he do - ancient or modern?  The same applies to the everyday vehicles which also had bodywork panelled over/re-panelled as the years passed by.  Definitely a frightening prospect for manufacturers and a very big reason why they haven't looked at serious development of a range of toplight vehicles in r-t-r form to date.

[Clearwater]

Edit - answered my own q!

Edited May 5, 2018 by Clearwater

[checkrail]

The first $64,000 question for anyone doing a mass market.r-t-r version of a Toplight is 'which one guv, one which length of underframe?',  the second question is an even more awkward one and boils down to 'at what point in the vehicle's life?', and the third question for r-t0r manufacturers is 'how many different liveries did it carry?'. which also has to sit alongside the second question.  Regrettably such was the life story of the various toplight vehicles taht it quickly becomes very frightening for anybody thinking about them as a commercial proposition because very few pairs of people seem to want the same one at the same point in is overall life  judging by a past poll on RMweb.

 

You make some cogent points on this, as you have done previously, and I used to think your arguments were pretty unassailable.  But here are a couple of thoughts:

 

1.  I mentioned bullhead track. For many years we were told that ready-to-lay bullhead track and points would never happen. (I was told it directly by Peco when I returned to this game in 2012.) Should it have 2- or 3-bolt chairs? Should it follow GWR or Midland, NE etc. practice?  Should it be to finescale standards, requiring 14.8mm b-to-b wheels? Or standard 00, or 00-sf?  Should it have Peco geometry or replicate real practice? Wasn't Old Man Pritchard himself supposed to have said, "We're not going to make track for these people.  They don't know what they want"?  And now?

 

2.  Don't nearly all the reasons you list apply equally to kits of toplights?  You'd have a bit of a job converting a Slater's kit into some of the examples to which you give links!  And given that the kits are usually bought by those with the modelling skills to adapt them to some degree, wouldn't those people be equally ready and willing to adapt RTR versions? And wouldn't loads of us lesser-skilled mortals ("the average enthusiast" to resurrect a phrase) just thank heaven for a reasonable representation of a toplight regardless of period-specific detail, as we do about, e.g. top feeds on pre-war panniers, B-sets with too many guard's windows etc.?  Oh yes, many people would moan ad infinitum about what was wrong with them, but they'd probably buy 'em!

 

John C.

[The Stationmaster]

You make some cogent points on this, as you have done previously, and I used to think your arguments were pretty unassailable.  But here are a couple of thoughts:

 

1.  I mentioned bullhead track. For many years we were told that ready-to-lay bullhead track and points would never happen. (I was told it directly by Peco when I returned to this game in 2012.) Should it have 2- or 3-bolt chairs? Should it follow GWR or Midland, NE etc. practice?  Should it be to finescale standards, requiring 14.8mm b-to-b wheels? Or standard 00, or 00-sf?  Should it have Peco geometry or replicate real practice? Wasn't Old Man Pritchard himself supposed to have said, "We're not going to make track for these people.  They don't know what they want"?  And now?

 

2.  Don't nearly all the reasons you list apply equally to kits of toplights?  You'd have a bit of a job converting a Slater's kit into some of the examples to which you give links!  And given that the kits are usually bought by those with the modelling skills to adapt them to some degree, wouldn't those people be equally ready and willing to adapt RTR versions? And wouldn't loads of us lesser-skilled mortals ("the average enthusiast" to resurrect a phrase) just thank heaven for a reasonable representation of a toplight regardless of period-specific detail, as we do about, e.g. top feeds on pre-war panniers, B-sets with too many guard's windows etc.?  Oh yes, many people would moan ad infinitum about what was wrong with them, but they'd probably buy 'em!

 

John C.

 

The comments do indeed apply to kits but then we are looking at a different market from r-t-r although the costs aren't necessarily going to be massively cheaper when considered in proportion.  A kit maker will no doubt, as Slaters did, go for a particular period and be happy to cover a relatively short timespan and people will buy the product if it offers what they want or can be readily changed (maybe no more than small details and livery variation for much of the inter-war period) to turn it into what they do want .  But it will still be a restricted market with production measured in the low to middle hundreds rather than the thousands being sought by the r-t-r folk to cover their development and production costs where they will hopefully cover wider periods because it enlarges their potential market.

 

There is of course a very simple answer and that is to literally put one's money where your mouth is.  Nowadays commissioning isn't too difficult and there are plenty of Chinese factories looking for work including some with good reputations.  Producing an assembled painted model is one thing but would any of them, or a factory in India, consider producing a kit of parts leaving assembly and finishing to the UK end user?   Would crowd funding (more along the lines of the way revolution have done things rather than any other way) be a suitable way of developing a small range of either kits or even r-t-r vehicles.   A survey has already been done on here and while it showed a wide divergence of preferences could some common ground be developed out of the results it produced along the lines you suggest in your final sentences? 

 

A while back an RMweb member sought out interest among those he considered potential customers for a commission of an Aberdare - out of period for me but close enough to be of interest and spot on for area of operation so I happily joined the list but it turned out to be impossible to find enough people who wanted one at the sort of costs being talked about and the idea died.  If someone is keen enough to do the same sort of canvassing for Toplights then that is probably the best starting point to see if it really is a practicable proposition to develop into a commission or direct deal with a factory.  Time to reopen Neal's survey thread?

[sjrixon]

Good tip on the low roof siphon. I picked up a couple on ebay, one metal one plastic, I was also surprised that there were two designs. The plastic one is a non-runner as it also pivots on the centre axle. They used top hat bearings so I've got quite a lot of fettering to do. 

[checkrail]

The comments do indeed apply to kits but then we are looking at a different market from r-t-r although the costs aren't necessarily going to be massively cheaper when considered in proportion.  A kit maker will no doubt, as Slaters did, go for a particular period and be happy to cover a relatively short timespan and people will buy the product if it offers what they want or can be readily changed (maybe no more than small details and livery variation for much of the inter-war period) to turn it into what they do want .  But it will still be a restricted market with production measured in the low to middle hundreds rather than the thousands being sought by the r-t-r folk to cover their development and production costs where they will hopefully cover wider periods because it enlarges their potential market.

 

There is of course a very simple answer and that is to literally put one's money where your mouth is.  Nowadays commissioning isn't too difficult and there are plenty of Chinese factories looking for work including some with good reputations.  Producing an assembled painted model is one thing but would any of them, or a factory in India, consider producing a kit of parts leaving assembly and finishing to the UK end user?   Would crowd funding (more along the lines of the way revolution have done things rather than any other way) be a suitable way of developing a small range of either kits or even r-t-r vehicles.   A survey has already been done on here and while it showed a wide divergence of preferences could some common ground be developed out of the results it produced along the lines you suggest in your final sentences? 

 

A while back an RMweb member sought out interest among those he considered potential customers for a commission of an Aberdare - out of period for me but close enough to be of interest and spot on for area of operation so I happily joined the list but it turned out to be impossible to find enough people who wanted one at the sort of costs being talked about and the idea died.  If someone is keen enough to do the same sort of canvassing for Toplights then that is probably the best starting point to see if it really is a practicable proposition to develop into a commission or direct deal with a factory.  Time to reopen Neal's survey thread?

 

Thanks for this input Mike.  Some food for thought there.

 

Personally I'll probably be happy if the Slater's 4mm kit revival happens as per recent rumours.  (I say 'probably' because I don't yet know what kind of pig's ear I might make of the one currently on the workbench!)

 

Regards,

John.

[checkrail]

A couple of views of 8750 class 3603 of Exeter shed passing through Stoke C. with a goods train.  (Nary a toplight in sight!)

 

 

 

John.

[checkrail]

Been out on the hill a lot with the good weather, so not much modelling time recently, but still making progress slowly with a Slaters toplight kit, with another to start.  Here are a couple of shots of the van 3rd on test, in works photographic grey . Er, sorry - I mean Halfords primer.

 

I decided the Slaters bogies were far too fiddly for me.  (My ideal kit has one part.)  So I used some 9 foot ones from an old PC kit, adding the plastic footboards from the Slaters kit.  Hardest part was getting the outer end steps on.  In the end superglue reinforced with Araldite did the trick, but they'll always need careful handling.

 

Of course, the biggest challenge is going to be in the painting - especially all those flipping bolections!

 

 

 

I see that since my last post on the topic one of these kits went on eBay for £335!  This seemed to bring more kits out of cupboards and onto the market in hope of a nice windfall, but prices soon fell back to normal-ish as punters wised up to the promise of a Slaters 4mm renaissance.

 

John C.

[St Enodoc]

Been out on the hill a lot with the good weather, so not much modelling time recently, but still making progress slowly with a Slaters toplight kit, with another to start.  Here are a couple of shots of the van 3rd on test, in works photographic grey . Er, sorry - I mean Halfords primer.

 

I decided the Slaters bogies were far too fiddly for me.  (My ideal kit has one part.)  So I used some 9 foot ones from an old PC kit, adding the plastic footboards from the Slaters kit.  Hardest part was getting the outer end steps on.  In the end superglue reinforced with Araldite did the trick, but they'll always need careful handling.

 

Of course, the biggest challenge is going to be in the painting - especially all those flipping bolections!

 

Toplight on test 1.jpg

 

Toplight on test 2.jpg

 

I see that since my last post on the topic one of these kits went on eBay for £335!  This seemed to bring more kits out of cupboards and onto the market in hope of a nice windfall, but prices soon fell back to normal-ish as punters wised up to the promise of a Slaters 4mm renaissance.

 

John C.

I agree regarding the Slaters bogies. I've got a selection of old K's and Mailcoach American bogies to fit when I build mine.

 

You're right about the silly prices too.

[81C]

I've got mine running round on 7' Hornby ones I've a cast american bogie set waiting to go one of the all 3rds 2 more sets to find

and as the corridor connections start playing up I'm putting Comet one's on 2 done so far, the only problem I've had is spray

painting them they are a so and so to mask off round the mouldings I found blue exterior masking tape works well (from Wickes)

but they do look good dotted around in different trains good luck with yours.

[Barry Ten]

As I've mentioned elsewhere, the other thing about the Slaters bogies, besides being overly complex and fiddly, is that (to my mind) they don't work reliably. I could never get either the American or the GWR pattern ones to track reliably, even in OO, so I ended up replacing/heavily bodging them.

[checkrail]

As I've mentioned elsewhere, the other thing about the Slaters bogies, besides being overly complex and fiddly, is that (to my mind) they don't work reliably. I could never get either the American or the GWR pattern ones to track reliably, even in OO, so I ended up replacing/heavily bodging them.

 

Yes. In fact Barry, memory of your having said this before was one of the deciding factors in giving them a swerve.

[checkrail]

I've got mine running round on 7' Hornby ones I've a cast american bogie set waiting to go one of the all 3rds 2 more sets to find

and as the corridor connections start playing up I'm putting Comet one's on 2 done so far, the only problem I've had is spray

painting them they are a so and so to mask off round the mouldings I found blue exterior masking tape works well (from Wickes)

but they do look good dotted around in different trains good luck with yours.

 

Thanks 81C.  Interesting what you say re the gangways playing up.  Tell me more!  I thought I might bung the PC ones on for now, and try to assemble the Slaters ones at my leisure, if I managed to follow the rather complex instructions.  Iain Rice waxed lyrical about how good they were in his Railway Modelling; the realistic way.

 

To spray with primer I shoved some soft cardboard into the corridors & compartments, where the glazing will later go.

[The Great Bear]

Yes. In fact Barry, memory of your having said this before was one of the deciding factors in giving them a swerve.

 

I've been using these from Stafford Road Model Works:

https://www.shapeways.com/product/7AZB2W42K/gwr-american-8-bogie-with-boss?optionId=63528891

or

https://www.shapeways.com/product/EJDHNJC2X/gwr-fish-belly-9-bogie-with-boss?optionId=63572384

with my "home" made toplights.

 

(I'll try to remember to take photos of the finished product next time I go to the man cave.)

 

Idiot proof one piece, though unlike whitemetal ones doesn't give the weight low down and better riding - though nothing stopping one adding some lead strips to these I suppose if that mattered.

[81C]

Hi John 7 0ut of 8 corridor connectors have been fine one has been a pig jambing and snagging other coaches I've push it in a bit and put a spot of glue on it

I couldn't get a replacement also cosidering the time spent making them the last 2 had Comet one's put straight on as these were bought in bits and pieces as

and when Dunn had them on the stand I got fed up with the chap he was full of carp and kept moaning about his machine 2 years out of service by then anyway I

found what I needed else where again Hornby bogies went straight on, it might help with the end board put on one end not connected to another coach and a bit of 

black plasticard on the other.

Bob

[The Great Bear]

Photos of Stafford Road models bogies as promised:

8' American

 

9' Fishbelly

 

Both are just as were printed in the Black Strong and Flexible (now Black Natural Versatile Plastic), I see they are now available in what's called White Processed Versatile Plastic which I assumed means they have been polished. That and spray painted may look better than these.