Southern's Timetable Reduction

[jonathan452]

FYI - Disruption on Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern rail services examined - http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/transport-committee/news-parliament-2015/rail-passenger-experience-evidence-16-172/

 

20 July 2016

The Transport Committee hears evidence from the Department for Transport's (DfT) new rail minister, Paul Maynard MP, and DfT officials in its final evidence session on improving the rail passenger experience.

 

• Watch Parliament TV: Improving the rail passenger experience
• Inquiry: Improving the rail passenger experience
• Transport Committee

Witnesses

Wednesday 20 July 2016, Committee Room 8, Palace of Westminster

At 4.05pm

• Paul Maynard MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport, Department for Transport
• Peter Wilkinson, Managing Director, Passenger Services, Department for Transport
• Bernadette Kelly CB, Director General, Rail Group, Department for Transport

Purpose of the session

The session covers the DfT's role in the current situation on the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchise, particularly the severe disruption being experienced by Southern Railway's passengers.

The session also considers broader issues, such as:

• disabled people's access to the railway
• plans for "smart" ticketing and part-time season tickets
• ideas for more passenger-focused performance measures

Further information

• About Parliament: Select committees
• Visiting Parliament: Watch committees

 

[jonathan452]

Don't you mean Forest Hole, it's been renamed

[jonathan452]

Amended Thameslink service between Bedford and Brighton

 

Incident created

25/07/2016 21:47

Route affected

Thameslink between Bedford and Brighton

 

Train operator affected

Thameslink; 

Description

Trains are now running normally between Bedford and Brighton following an unexpected driver absence last night.

 

Not getting any better.

 

And with the third rail problems at Gatwick today quite a few Gatwick Express services are being cancelled (additional to those already axed in the emergency timetable) with passengers being redirected on-to the Thameslink services.

 

Therefore lets hope they (Thameslink) don't have an 'unexpected' driver absense tonight as well.

[roundhouse]

Last night there were numerous cancellations and delays on Southern aswell.

 

We were in town later than normal. The Southern we caught was a 5 car unit but one coach locked out of use. It was also busier than normal due to the Uckfield service being delayed.

[jonathan452]

Recap to yesterday's delays (see picture and video)-:

 

Gatwick Airport station fire causes travel chaos for Southern and Thameslink commuters - http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/gatwick-airport-station-fire-causes-travel-chaos-for-holidaymakers-a3304451.html

 

And now wait for it!

 

Southern rail: Chaos affecting commuters set to get even worse as unions threaten major new strike - http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-rail-chaos-affecting-commuters-set-to-get-even-worse-as-unions-threaten-major-new-strike-a3305296.html

 

Commuters may be hit with fresh strike hell - http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/14644513.Commuters_may_be_hit_with_fresh_strike_hell/

[Gwiwer]

Effects are being felt on local bus services.  Brighton & Hove Buses have reported on more than one occasion that their coastal route 12 (Brighton - Seaford - Eastbourne) is running with all trips full and standing leaving people behind.  These are double-deck buses running at least every 10 minutes through most of the day. Whilst they are rightly popular anyway they are effectively replacing the Brighton - Newhaven - Seaford rail service.  Southern has contracted for a Lewes - Seaford bus service but Brighton is the main destination.  Rather than travel indirectly with a change of mode and the risk of the connecting train being full or cancelled people are taking to the more frequent and less expensive buses. I can't say I blame them.

 

Reports from family members suggest the every-10-minutes Stagecoach 700 bus between Brighton - Worthing - Littlehampton (and with every third trip extended to Arundel) is also carrying far more passengers than before the disruption despite Stagecoach fares being higher than some rail fares and much more than the capped B&H prices on the 12 road.

 

There have been vociferous complaints about folk being unable to board bus after bus for over two hours at times.

 

The situation seems to be deteriorating overall with multiple disputes now in play and staff seeking to leave the employ of GTR for greener pastures only adding fuel to the fires.

[roundhouse]

Just been reading and discussing the threat of more GTR / union strikes here at work as a few of us use Southern.

 

Not looking good and we are now having to reduce the number of planned rail trips around the country. Our Scottish trip is not now happening due ot the risk of getting caught in strikes up there.

 

A work collegue is moving ot Jersey. Apparently the peak hour traffic is that great that it can take half hour to travel across the island. I might see if they have any more jobs going

[jonathan452]

Today

15:17 London Victoria to Eastbourne/Littlehampton

This train has been cancelled because of a shortage of train crew

[phil-b259]

 

The situation seems to be deteriorating overall with multiple disputes now in play and staff seeking to leave the employ of GTR for greener pastures only adding fuel to the fires.

 

Indeed and its such a shame to see it happen. Up until a couple of years ago Southern was a well run franchise with good levels of passenger satisfaction and equally reasonable industrial relations. To see that turned into the current mess, for what is increasingly sounding like vested interests wanting a punch up over the fundamentals of railway operation in a bid to cut costs / maintain their industrial muscle is very sad and frustrating - for all those working on the railway in Sussex.

 

Ultimately a reliable and well run railway relies on an awful lot of good will behind the scenes - something notably absent from Southern. As such its entirely understandable the under attack staff (from all sides) of GTR want out.

 

It makes you wonder what will happen in the Autumn when the Politicians get back from their Holidays - as ultimately they are the only ones that can either bring an end to it by giving in to the Unions or make things even worse by continuing the present agenda.

[roundhouse]

I certainly used to think Southern was one of the best but now it's by far the worst IMHO. There's a lot of good people working for them but there are very few that will say anything good these days.

 

Others that wer poor seem to have upped their game such as FGW aka GWR.

[SwissRailPassion]

It's all going very badly. The DfT is behind the mess and has driven Govia into confrontation. The blame game is being played and the paying customers are piggy in the middle.

Peter Wilkinson was shamed at the select committee. He said he will "break" the drivers and guards but instead he is ruining passengers lives every day. Why on earth could this have not been settled by constructive negotiation?

[phil-b259]

Why on earth could this have not been settled by constructive negotiation?

Politics.

 

Conservative administrations don't negotiate with unions, to do so is a sign of weakness in their eyes. Yes they 'consult' and may make changes as a result but that's not the same thing as a genuine negotiation because that inevitably means said administration has to make substantive concessions rather than merely tinkering round the edges..

 

In this case the DfT are adamant, DOO and ticket office closures must happen and the Unions must not stand in the way of that.

[roundhouse]

Then add in the very poor PR exercise by Southern / Govia blaming the guards (and drivers) for sickness.

 

Now that we have a reduced service there are still cancellations due to staff shortage (Thameslink its drivers) and a lot of train failures etc. Our SOuthern 12 car train has been short formed twice this week so far (as have others services)  - what would have happened if there hadnt been a dispute and the full service was still in place.  I guess still a load of cancellations due ot a lack of serviceable stock.

[phil-b259]

Then add in the very poor PR exercise by Southern / Govia blaming the guards (and drivers) for sickness.

 

 

Which of course ties in with the Government spin that this is all due to those dastardly trade Union members.....

[The Stationmaster]

Politics.

 

Conservative administrations don't negotiate with unions, to do so is a sign of weakness in their eyes. Yes they 'consult' and may make changes as a result but that's not the same thing as a genuine negotiation because that inevitably means said administration has to make substantive concessions rather than merely tinkering round the edges..

 

In this case the DfT are adamant, DOO and ticket office closures must happen and the Unions must not stand in the way of that.

 

Not really true in my experience.  Politicians generally are frightened of confrontation with (strong) trade unions and often go a long way to avoid it.  In this case I think what has probably gone on in the background is fairly clear - firstly there is an idiotic report from 'academics' about the level of earnings in the rail industry which in many respects looked through the wrong end of the telescope and was not brilliant in identifying why overall industry costs - in total - were rising.  This was then taken in the wrong (or quite likely from their viewpoint the right) way and they swung 'opinion' onto frontline costs - Wilkinson appears to have been a prime candidate in this - grossly overpaid himself he was hardly likely to have a go at costs in the upper levels of the industry.

 

So DaftT, no doubt 'inspired' by this idiot, then began to 'prove' to the politicos how costs could be reduced and got things going by writing things into franchise renewals.  The trouble is they probably in reality have no more understanding of how things work than the politicos do and the franchise is let to a company which very clearly has even less understanding than DafT have of how to go about things than.

 

Net result - the present mess.  Simplest answer - get rid of the idiot Wilkinson, clearly some sort of motormouth who hasn't got a clue about anything to do with railways; get shot of Govia for sheer incompetence and either re-let or put the franchise under direct management pending re-let.  Do not give it to TFL - they also have limited understanding of how real railways work and lack the experience to run something like this whatever they might be muttering in the background.  At the same time there should be a competent rail industry review (although I'm not at all sure who in the industry would be 'competent' in this instance) to review the DOO (P) conditions and requirements - and when that review is complete to leave it to franchsees and other operators to implement them where it is possible to do so.  In some cases in my view there would have to be independent risk assessments however overall the reality is that properly applied DOO(P) works successfully, has done so in Britain for over a quarter of a century, and imports little or no additional risk potential and in many instances actually reduces risk potential.

[Coryton]

so.  In some cases in my view there would have to be independent risk assessments however overall the reality is that properly applied DOO(P) works successfully, has done so in Britain for over a quarter of a century, and imports little or no additional risk potential and in many instances actually reduces risk potential.

 

But isn't very attractive if you're somebody who needs assistance to get on or off a train.

 

Last week I had a look at a map on a Southern station showing accessibility of stations.

 

There are already a large number marked as being unmanned with driver only trains calling, so if you can't plan your life 24 hours ahead of time, forget it.

 

So I think my initial view that current Southern DOO(P) operations are largely limited to manned stations and newly converted services are more likely to retain a second member of staff because they call at many more unmanned stations doesn't seem to be true.

 

Does anyone know if the current franchise requires a second member of crew to be rostered on newly converted DOO lines? Not that this means anything for the next franchise...

[roundhouse]

The Southern management keep saying that no-ones getting made redundant and that the ex conductors with still be there as train hosts. Me - very skeptical of this otherwise why would it be such a big issue ot change the guards role (apart from that the new Thameslink trains do not have a position for the guards ot operate the doors) to save on costs. I reckon that they will end up with no train hosts once those people leave, retire , get reprimanded and fired or similar.

 

The upcoming dispute with booking office staff is another where they say no one is going to be made redundant as they will then be in the public part of the station helping out with ticket machines on the platform etc. so these people could also help passengers on and off trains and will be working later than currently.. However see my comments in the first paragraph!

[The Stationmaster]

The Southern management keep saying that no-ones getting made redundant and that the ex conductors with still be there as train hosts. Me - very skeptical of this otherwise why would it be such a big issue ot change the guards role (apart from that the new Thameslink trains do not have a position for the guards ot operate the doors) to save on costs. I reckon that they will end up with no train hosts once those people leave, retire , get reprimanded and fired or similar.

 

The upcoming dispute with booking office staff is another where they say no one is going to be made redundant as they will then be in the public part of the station helping out with ticket machines on the platform etc. so these people could also help passengers on and off trains and will be working later than currently.. However see my comments in the first paragraph!

 

I think all this is part of the problem - although we are only seeing the public face of it (maybe on purpose of course as it all sounds reasonable and that's for our benefit).  Booking office hours area  relatively simple thing to manage as workload is easy to assess and adjusting hours of coverage is long established practice.  But using fancy new terms such as 'train host'  and 'passenger hosts' or whatever they're called will immediately ring alarm bells when you have a management whose motives are not trusted by their staff and a union which is looking for a fight.

 

Alas it comes back - I think - to a management at senior level which isn't up to the job and which is not rolling the pitch before the game opens.

[ejstubbs]

firstly there is an idiotic report from 'academics' about the level of earnings in the rail industry which in many respects looked through the wrong end of the telescope and was not brilliant in identifying why overall industry costs - in total - were rising.  This was then taken in the wrong (or quite likely from their viewpoint the right) way and they swung 'opinion' onto frontline costs

 

By "idiotic report from 'academics'" are you referring to McNulty?

 

Having read the report, I have to say that the methodology described therein seems deeply suspect if they really wanted to understand railway operations.

[jonathan452]

Todays fun and games - so far.....................

 

13:40 Bedford to Brighton (East Sussex)

Thameslink

Service updates

• This train has been cancelled because of a shortage of train crew

14:30

London Victoria to Brighton (East Sussex)

Gatwick Express

Service updates

• This train has been cancelled because of a shortage of train crew

14:58 Brighton (East Sussex) to London Victoria

Southern 

Service updates

• This train has been cancelled because of a fault on this train

15:48 Brighton (East Sussex) to London Victoria

Gatwick Express 

Service updates

• This train has been cancelled because of a shortage of train crew

13:29 Three Bridges to Bedford

Thameslink 

Service updates

• This train has been cancelled because of more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time.

14:54 Bedford to Three Bridges

Thameslink 

Service updates

• This train has been cancelled because of a shortage of train drivers

15:54 Bedford to Sevenoaks

Thameslink 

Service updates

• This train has been cancelled because of a shortage of train drivers

16:05 West Hampstead Thameslink to Orpington

Thameslink 

Service updates

• This train has been cancelled because of a shortage of train drivers

EDIT

 

16:20 London Victoria to Brighton (East Sussex)

Southern

Service updates

• This train has been cancelled because of a fault on this train

FURTHER EDIT

 

16:59 London Victoria to Gatwick Airport

Gatwick Express 

Service updates

• This train has been cancelled because of a shortage of train crew

18:17 London Victoria to Littlehampton

Southern 

Service updates

• This train has been cancelled because of a fault on this train

16:32 Brighton (East Sussex) to Ashford International

Southern 

Service updates

• This train has been cancelled because of a shortage of train conductors

16:35 Brighton (East Sussex) to Bedford

Thameslink 

Service updates

• This train has been cancelled because of a fault on this train

17:28 Brighton (East Sussex) to London Victoria

Southern 

Service updates

• This train has been cancelled because of a fault on this train

16:52 Elephant & Castle to Bedford

Thameslink 

Service updates

• This train has been cancelled because of more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time

17:34 Orpington to Luton

Thameslink 

Service updates

• This train has been cancelled because of a shortage of train drivers

[roundhouse]

Looks like a normal day even after the temporary timetable reductions in service!

[Coryton]

Todays fun and games - so far.....................

 

If they are having problems with driver shortages even after the timetable reduction, it's hard to believe that too many guards going off sick was the cause of all the trouble before.

 

Likewise running out of trains to run the reduced timetable doesn't look very good.

 

Is that one the fault of the unions?

[The Stationmaster]

By "idiotic report from 'academics'" are you referring to McNulty?

 

Having read the report, I have to say that the methodology described therein seems deeply suspect if they really wanted to understand railway operations.

 

This one (which apparently fed some bullets to Mr McNulty)

 

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/2709/rvfm-aecom-people-march2011.pdf

[The Stationmaster]

If they are having problems with driver shortages even after the timetable reduction, it's hard to believe that too many guards going off sick was the cause of all the trouble before.

 

Likewise running out of trains to run the reduced timetable doesn't look very good.

 

Is that one the fault of the unions?

But it does need to be read with care as in one instance the same working appears as two separate trains - thus two trains are cancelled as a consequence of one faulty set etc.  On an intensive, relatively short distance, service the real figure is the number of diagrams lost or part lost because of a particular failings.  That is of course not what the public would need to know as they relate to particular trains but the management should be relating to the real shortages/problems which kick off the succession of diagrams lost.

[ejstubbs]

This one (which apparently fed some bullets to Mr McNulty)

 

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/2709/rvfm-aecom-people-march2011.pdf

 

Thanks, I hadn't seen that one before.  Looks like someone, somewhere might usefully have paid a bit more attention to the second recommendation in the "Key Messages" section:

 

b. Continued effective engagement with the Trade Unions to consider solutions for improved productivity. The experience of the last 15 years has been that trade unions have been effective at negotiating outcomes for their members from the somewhat short-term interest of franchisees.

 

AFAICT from reading the McNulty report, it's not clear that the Trades Unions were involved in any of the Stakeholder Workshops that were carried out for that exercise.