Southern's Timetable Reduction

[phil-b259]

From the RMT

 

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said;

 

“It was clear right from the start of these talks that there was no serious intent from Govia Thameslink to engage in genuine negotiations and that their script was being written from behind the scenes by their government paymasters. You would have thought they would have taken our arm off when we offered to suspend the action in return for a series of guarantees that simply mirror the proposals from Scotrail just a couple of a few days ago.

 

“I have been involved in countless negotiations and have never witnessed a farce like this. The person running this circus wasn’t even in the room and we now know from well placed industry sources that it was Peter Wilkinson – the man who boasted that we was itching for a punch up with the unions. He told Govia to stonewall, reject and wreck the talks process. As they are paid directly by the Government on this contract that is exactly what they have done. It is disgraceful.

 

“Our action in defence of rail safety and the safety critical role of the guard now goes ahead next week and passengers caught in the middle of this wrecked process will be rightly furious that the talks that could have resolved this issue were sabotaged by Mr Wilkinson and his team from the off.

 

“Passengers will be well aware that Mr Wilkinson commutes from Vienna and is paid £280,000 a year as a government hit man. Our members refuse to cave in to his bullying and intimidation and will be standing firm. He made it clear in his infamous Croydon speech that he intends to starve our members back to work. It’s that aggressive and provocative attitude that has blocked all attempts to resolve the Southern dispute.

 

“Compared to the progress we have been able to make on Scotrail it is clear as day that GTR is being set up as a testing ground for a national union-busting experiment. That nonsense should be stopped right now and we should be allowed to get back to normal industrial relations, free from outside interference.”

[The Stationmaster]

The unfortunate thing about the RMT statement is that it is very easy to believe there is more than a grain of truth in it - which says a lot about Govia's attitude (or is it fear of DafT?) and what has come about as a result of Wilkinson's intemperate and childish words in just one speech made in public.  I am a firm believer in DOO(P) operation which has a long and safe history in Britain but not allowing managers to manage - if what the RMT claims is correct - strikes me as the height (or is it the pits) of stupidity.  The RMT have very cleverly tried to turn the grossly overpaid, and intemperate, Mr Wilkinson into some sort of pariah and he played right into their hands as he doesn't seem to have considered the people  (i.e the passengers) who have been well and truly caught in the middle of this dispute.  

 

And perhaps he ought to realise that the adoption and use of DOO(P) is an operational safety matter that has to be considered and assessed in that context by those who are expert in such matters (which does not include the RMT), and not on the whim of an overpaid amateur, whatever his job title.

[roundhouse]

Yep this disput has gone to a silly extreme with both side not at all interested in the pasengers. I really lost it Wednesday night after two days of severe delays both evenings to the point I wanted to deck someone but I am not alone at all and Southern are putting put stupid announcements with no care or compassion to passengers. There are lot of incidents these days where police are being called to such incidents of people who are normally quite calm now getting totally fed up of all these games being played. Bosses don't give a damn unless they commute on the same route as their employees which just makes things even worse.

 

We just do our best to avoid using GTR at weekends as the service is just as bad as in the week, so much so that GWR certainly look very good these days and I never thought that I would say that. Next weekend we are off to Exeter and points further west. I still have to find a way into work as I am not allowed to work from home even if it takes all morning to get in. at least Friday evening I can go to Paddington but my other half is working from home so she will go on GWR direct to Reading but that means that she has to buy an extra ticket and it messes up buying tickets with reserved seats to Exeter if we want to sit together from Reading.

[phil-b259]

Oh and just to clarify the Scotrail proposals the RMT talk about are described thus:-

 

In a circular to members issued today, RMT General Secretary Mick Cash sets out the details of the company offer;
“ScotRail has confirmed that we are considering a way forward whereby Conductors will be retained on EMUs in the Network area.

It is proposed that any ScotRail EMU services that operate on those routes that are being electrified, now or in the future, and services that operate on the north Berwick-Edinburgh-Carstairs-Glasgow routes (i.e. excluding any EMU services currently operating under existing DOO arrangements) will be: -

1.    Guaranteed a Conductor on every new electrified train.
2.    Guaranteed that the Conductor will retain their full competency (rules, track safety, evacuation).

In addition ScotRail confirm that trains operating these services will not run without a competent Conductor on board.

This proposal, including the above guarantees, is subject to ScotRail and the RMT entering into discussion about and agreeing a method of train dispatch for these services. Once this proposal and the method of dispatch are agreed it will be adopted for the Abellio ScotRail franchise and will apply beyond.”

RMT will be making no further comment on the offer until our members and representatives have had time to respond through the union’s democratic structures. The current programme of industrial action remains on.

[John M Upton]

I've resigned from the Union and will be reporting for work as booked next week.  I am not going to pander to these childish games, both sides need to quite frankly grow up.

[royaloak]

I've resigned from the Union and will be reporting for work as booked next week.  I am not going to pander to these childish games, both sides need to quite frankly grow up.

Enjoy your year or two of employment until these OBS roles are done away with, just as they have on every other DOO scheme in England.

I hope you only have a year or two on your mortgage.

[Coryton]

Yep this disput has gone to a silly extreme with both side not at all interested in the pasengers. I really lost it Wednesday night after two days of severe delays both evenings to the point I wanted to deck someone but I am not alone at all and Southern are putting put stupid announcements with no care or compassion to passengers. There are lot of incidents these days where police are being called to such incidents of people who are normally quite calm now getting totally fed up of all these games being played. Bosses don't give a damn unless they commute on the same route as their employees which just makes things even worse.

 

I got caught up in disruption on Thursday when a train heading out of Banham to Bognor managed to tear up the third rail.

 

Having a guard on the train stuck outside Barnham with no power was quite helpful when a passenger started to have a panic attack. If a train is stuck without power I don't know if the driver of a DOO train is supposed to leave the cab and make sure everybody is OK, or to deal with things like locking the internal doors open before the batteries run out. 

 

Once in Barnham it was utter chaos. One platform was out of use because of the train that had tangled with the third rail. Trains were arriving from Horsham and the east and either going out of service or going back the way they came. The departure screens were giving the wrong information but nobody seemed able to make announcements to tell us to ignore them, let alone turn them off. Despite no shortage of platform staff, there was no information on when or if a train would head west, or why it was that nothing was going west despite there being no problems with the track or signalling.

 

When a westbound train finally came in, passengers at one end of the platform were told it was going to Portsmouth, and at the other end that it was going to Southampton. I'm sure at times like this, with trains arriving late and drivers getting to the end of their shifts it's not easy to work out who to put on what train and where to send it, and I know that replacement buses take time to arrange. But the platform staff seemed as much in the dark as the passengers were, and it's rather disappointing if this is the best that can be done.

[Foulounoux]

Havant to Heathrow easy enough. Train to Woking + RailAir Coach. Gatwick-Havant was grim when we did it last with a change at Three Bridges.

Direct service for me and extra cost of first class was so small that work were happy to accept me choosing it

 

M25 mayhem Friday meant even the current southern service would have been preferable :-(

[The Stationmaster]

I've resigned from the Union and will be reporting for work as booked next week.  I am not going to pander to these childish games, both sides need to quite frankly grow up.

 

That takes considerable guts to do that John and I hope you don't suffer any childish nastiness as a result.

 

And you are absolutely right - both sides need to grow up.  It is a matter for railway professionals, with the knowledge and experience, to consider if a route is suitable for DOO(P) operation and it is not a matter for Civil Servants or politicians - and I have little doubt that in the past the BRB made that very clear to the Ministry (in fact they probably didn't even need to).  alas what is going on at present shows what can happen when idiots at those sort of levels start getting directly involved and not leaving management to manage.  

 

Equally the RMT needs to grow up and recognise that in the right circumstances DOO(P) operation is long established and has a good safety record.  I'm afraid I get totally fed up with politically motivated people like Cash fighting his battles on shaky ground and misrepresenting things as 'safety' when they clearly are not and the figures are there to show they are not.  I'm sorry but I spent too many years as a trade union member (including serving as a staff rep and attending conference) to see how unions can be misused for quasi-political reasons including misusing member's votes rather than their proper job of getting the best deal for and looking after their members. 

 

There is nothing revolutionary about DOO(P) and managers and staff reps should simply get on with discussing its application in properly considered circumstances as it undoubtedly can improve reliability of train service provision and do so quite safely.

[John M Upton]

Fortunately being an Instructor, I am guaranteed to remain a full Conductor with upcoming additional training demands on my services for the commercial and safety critical aspect of whatever the Guard/Conductor/OBS role becomes in the years to come.  Conductors are still need in some numbers for non DOO compatible stock (Class 313 and 171) and certain routes where DOO is not currently possible plus many that will not be possible for some months and indeed years yet.

 

The problem now is that the Union has made this personal and its become a war of personalities and ego's and until both sides calm down, step back and stop tossing their teddys out of their prams at the slightest whim then perhaps we can get this shambles sorted out.

 

Of course now the drivers are voting for strike action.....

[The Great Bear]

certain routes where DOO is not currently possible plus many that will not be possible for some months and indeed years yet.

 

 

 

Apologies if this is a silly question but what dictates that, it's not platform mirrors or cameras is it as trains have cameras on them, don't they? (I'm a commuter on the East Grinstead line by the way.)

[The Stationmaster]

Apologies if this is a silly question but what dictates that, it's not platform mirrors or cameras is it as trains have cameras on them, don't they? (I'm a commuter on the East Grinstead line by the way.)

 

It varies according to the nature of the station and various other things in the vicinity of the platform/stopping position (assuming things are otherwise DOO(P) compatible of course).

 

Thus you will find on GWR Class 165/166 DOO operated routes that the station fit varies - some platforms have cctv with monitors opposite where the Driver's cab window should come to a stand, some have mirrors, and some have no special equipment at all.  And it also varies between platforms at the same station.  I expect that when someone gets round to it there will be (should be) a reassessment of all stations to take account of the Crossrail trains as in some places they will have to come to a stand with the driving cab off the end of the platform (e.g Twyford Up Relief Line).

[Gwiwer]

Apologies if this is a silly question but what dictates that, it's not platform mirrors or cameras is it as trains have cameras on them, don't they? (I'm a commuter on the East Grinstead line by the way.)

 

 

Absolutely not a silly question.

 

Let's take a look at the west Coastway route from Brighton as an example.  The only two full-length platforms which serve this route are sharply curved.  Trains are formed of two (GWR only), three or four coaches and can occasionally be five, eight, ten, eleven or twelve when circumstances dictate such as diversions.  How many sets of mirrors / cameras / monitors would be required to cope with every permutation.  For some of the time two trains are in platform two together and also sometimes on platform 1.  More permutations.  If you reduce the required number of starting points you reduce capacity and flexibility when more, not less, is badly needed. 

 

While most other platforms are straight and some have an "All" stopping point - for trains of any length - right at one end such as Shoreham-by-Sea (down) and Lancing (up) there would need to be a provision at even the tiniest halt for both 3-car and 4-car trains or otherwise 3-car trains would stop inconveniently at the far end of platforms.  Aldrington, Fishersgate and East Worthing only hold 4 cars.  West of Chichester the halts hold six cars meaning more stopping marks are needed.  Many platforms accommodate less than an 8-car Electrostar train yet are served by them.  SDO is required.  How would DOO affect that at places such as Lancing and West Worthing where the tail of a train might be stopped across the level crossing (as it is now) unless DOO mirrors / monitors were also provided at 8-car stop and 12-car stop positions which would also be in advance of the starting signals?  

 

As I understand it the Sussex coastal routes are not included in the current proposals for these and probably other operational reasons.  

 

I work in a different country and one where all suburban trains are DOO but all regional (i.e. the equivalent of Southern outside the TfL fare zones) carry a conductor who is responsible for giving a Right Away signal to the driver.  Within the suburban area all trains are of two fixed lengths (3-car or 6-car) and equipping stations for DOO has been relatively easy.  In regional areas trains can vary from a single car to 9-car formations making the adoption of DOO completely out of the question on cost - benefit grounds alone.  The suburban network suffers frequent delays when eny emergency (such as sick passenger) arises because there is no-one bar the driver to do anything.  Not all stations are staffed.  Country trains seldom suffer such delays because the on-board conductor can usually manage a situation until a suitable location is reached for a greater level of response if required.

 

Whether in Australia or in Sussex I prefer the reassurance of knowing there is someone aboard with duty of care over passengers whether or not they are responsible for giving a starting signal.   I would be interested to hear to what extent British DOO-operated trains might be impacted by on-board or operational emergencies compared with those carrying a crew of at least two.  

[John M Upton]

There is also the platform lighting issue.  Many stations in recent years had their platform lighting changed to energy saving more environmentally friendly designs, unfortunately as a result they do not provide as much light (Emsworth is the worst in my experience, night time you can barely see a thing except under the canopy on the down side!) and as a result what appears on the DOO camera screens even in good weather conditions is dim and unclear.

 

Many stations will need to have their lighting changed to something brighter before DOO(P) can be introduced.

[phil-b259]

There is also the platform lighting issue. Many stations in recent years had their platform lighting changed to energy saving more environmentally friendly designs, unfortunately as a result they do not provide as much light (Emsworth is the worst in my experience, night time you can barely see a thing except under the canopy on the down side!) and as a result what appears on the DOO camera screens even in good weather conditions is dim and unclear.

 

Many stations will need to have their lighting changed to something brighter before DOO(P) can be introduced.

Is that not because most recently installed station lighting is fitted with some sort of proximity sensor which means the lights go dim unless a person gets close to them. Walking down the platform at Three Bridges in the small hours produces a cascade effect with each lamp getting brighter as you approach.

[John M Upton]

Yes, that's them and the sensors don't always work either resulting on a number of occasions in myself having to jump up and down waving my arms in the air just to get the lights to come on!!!

[Great Western]

I've resigned from the Union and will be reporting for work as booked next week. I am not going to pander to these childish games, both sides need to quite frankly grow up.

I'm a Guard with GWR and I'm in the same boat as you, sick to the back teeth of being used as plaything by the union in a game with the government and company.

 

It's now 12 months since our strike action against DOO-P and the removal of our door duties (which I supported, and lost several days pay). Howeve one year later we are still technically in disputes as no agreement has been signed. We have had minimal information form the union regards any agreement, all we get is "we're waiting for for a response".

 

When you try and debate with our officials we get told that we're being negitive and our views arent constructive, if we continue to push we're told to "oh go away".

 

Im sick of it, obviously I want my job to continue as I like everyone else as a mortgage and bills to pay. Right now if our lot "did a southern" and made us non door OBSs I'd take it, and I wouldn't vote or go out on strike.

 

I really am in the verge of leaving the union as I feel they are ill equipped and not really interested in fighting our corner, they are seen and us as members as jokes in the wider industry.

[phil-b259]

Enjoy your year or two of employment until these OBS roles are done away with, just as they have on every other DOO scheme in England.

I hope you only have a year or two on your mortgage.

 

And your alternative is?

 

The simple fact is the Union bosses are doing their members a great disservice by sticking their heads in the sand and ignoring railway, technical and social developments - however much they may go against the left wing politics / socialist stance many unions still hold dear. As the Stationmaster has said several times DOO is not inherently unsafe - a position all the safety regulators also hold. In such an situation standing there and refusing to consider it as the Unions have done, will never do anything than make their own members suffer with no hope of changing anything.

 

A smarter approch is to employ the 'yes, but ......' technique where the Unions say such and such routes are unsuitable for X, Y & Z reasons, but that routes A, B & C are OK. (The coastway lines have been mentioned by some as an example where DOO may not be the best idea - in contrast to the Brighton Main line for example). Such an approch is not only more likely to produce a positive result for Union members, but it makes is very hard to paint the Union as extremest and out of touch.

 

Unfortunately the RMT (and others) see the above, not as a sign of maturity but as a sign of weakness - and much like a toddler having a temper tantrum always insist on being as inflexible as possible. While such a stance may go down well with the left wing firebrands who run the Union and some of the membership, it is most unhelpful when it comes to dealing with industrial relations where a 'one size fits all' approch is rarely appropriate. There are in fact plenty of parallels between the behaviour of the Unions and the current Labour party woes - in both cases the people in charge forget that to 'win' you have to compromise and seduce those who are not your usual supporters to achieve a satisfactory result. Otherwise you are condemned to the sidelines, making lots of noise but having zero ability to influence anything.

[Supaned]

One could also argue that politically "visible" routes such as the Brighton Main line and the like are really all the DfT are actually interested in rather than wholesale DOO-P , which , I'd argue, isn't suitable for every route.

 

It has been raised that in all prior DOO schemes where the former guards were converted to on board staff , those positions didn't last more than a couple of years - on that basis alone one could argue a case to support the RMT position , but realistically , no company can give any guarantee on redundancies other than for the duration of their franchise/contract period.

 

The politically correct way to manage that would be to guarantee no compulsory redundancies , but also no longer recruit for the role if the eventual aim is to eliminate headcount - thus nobody is forced out of work and retirement/natural wastage resolves the issue eventually, but I suspect that isn't really acceptable to shareholders either.

 

I should point out I'm no fan of DOO-P operation. I have serious concerns about a driver being taken to court (despite having carried out their duties correctly) because a member of the public is incapable of following instructions or being responsible for their own actions. Unfortunately , the likes of Southern as well as a lot of former NSE routes already have some DOO-P operation so the precedent has been set.

 

The Scotrail scenario is also interesting - is this because the DfT doesn't have a direct input into the matter? 

 

Either way , something needs to give , on both sides.

[roundhouse]

On a Caterham and Tattenham Corner service this evening. Luckily my other half can work from home so she is picking me up at Whyteleafe then going to mums not too far away.

This mornings run from Caterham was looking a bit iffy with the driver having to get a taxi from Selhurst to Caterham delaying us 15 minutes but it then missed loads of stops including a East Croydon which suited me going to LBG but not good for all those left standing on the platforms.

[Chameleon]

While the Scotrail deal apparently gives certain guarantees, (and is probably as good a deal as we will get in this day and age) there are a lot of practicalities needing worked out.

One of the main driving forces in introducing DOO is to speed services up, IE shave a whole minute or so off an Edinburgh-Queen St service. How will this work in practice? Will the conductor have to pop their head out at every stop to see if anyone needs assistance? What if there is a wheelchair user wanting on? Chances are, the conductor could get out with the ramp only for the driver to shut the doors and leave them behind! Thats if they even have time to get the ramp out! Also if someone needs help getting off, the conductor might not be able to communicate this to the driver.

Overall, the major factor in station dwell time is the passengers getting themselves on and off the train. If stops are going to be as quick as they plan, a lot of people will get left behind or over carried.

[royaloak]

DOO is not faster than crew working, that is a fallacy,in fact in most real world situations it is much slower.

 

A guard using their whistle will 'encourage'people to board quicker, a DOO train will just have to sit there and wait while they slowly board the train, so anytime saved by the driver releasing the doors is lost by the slow boarding, trust me on that one!

 

The quickest method of station working is for the guard to be able to look out as the train arrives, release the doors as soon as it has stopped (and proved to be platformed correctly), the guard will then wait for everyone to get off, when most of them have got on (and boarding has slowed), use the whistle to get the rest on, as soon as the doors are clear close them, check the PTI is clear, close local door and ding ding.

 

The fact the openable window has been designed out of a train isnt the guards fault and it can very easily be designed back in.

[roundhouse]

One issue that happens fairly regularly on Southern especially a 12 car Electrostar at LBG is that one 4 car (normally at the country end but can be the bufferstop end) the doors wont open upon arrival, it then takes a while for anyone to notice before the whole train has to be reset. OK the guard may not be in the set where the doors wont open but  the drivers often release the doors then get straight out of the train leaving platform staff to then raise the problem. I believe this is a GPS issue and have had similar incidents at other stations including Redhill. The guard being the one to sort the problem out. No doubt the driver can do this but by the time he releases then it will have taken longer?

 

Any Southern guards / drivers on here know if this is the case?

[bbishop]

Some thoughts on the Southeastern suburban services, which are entirely DOO (although trains are "started" by platform staff at a limited number of stations).

 

There are a limited number of screens at most stations, so some trains stop way down the platform.  My local station (Lee) is particularly notorious.  If you are sitting in the shelter, there is a lengthy gallop to the rear of a four coach train.

 

The platforms at Lee are quite low so, once the station is unmanned (early evening), how does a wheelchair user de-train?

 

Most stations deem to be safe, but there are some locations that are potentially dangerous.  One location is platform 2 at Lewisham, which is on a sharp curve, so there is a risk of someone falling between the platform and the train unnoticed by the driver.  I would argue that trains should be started by platform staff.   An accident waiting to happen in my opinion.

 

Bill

[jjb1970]

On the safety aspect of this dispute, train companies have statutory obligations and are subject to a pretty robust (from what I can see) regulatory regime. Despite endless scare mongering from the RMT and certain politicians about privatisation threatening safety I think that the only part of that allegation which had some truth was with respect to Railtrack. And they were renationalised years ago. To me it does no credit to the RMT that every dispute they get involved in (which is many) seems to become a safety concern, cheapening health and safety. Personally its a major reason why I don't take the RMT seriously.