Southern's Timetable Reduction

[david.hill64]

News reports today state that Southern Railway is introducing an emergency timetable that reduces the number of trains operated per day by 350.

 

I can't help but feel that this is political rather than/as much as an operational decision. Looks like we are indeed heading towards a major confrontation with NUR and ASLEF.

[phil-b259]

News reports today state that Southern Railway is introducing an emergency timetable that reduces the number of trains operated per day by 350.

 

I can't help but feel that this is political rather than/as much as an operational decision. Looks like we are indeed heading towards a major confrontation with NUR and ASLEF.

 

Minor point, the NUR hasn't existed for a good decade or so - it amalgamated with a couple of other Unions to form the Rail, Maritime & Transport Union, headed for many years by Bob Crow.

 

The RMT takes pride in its reputation as being a hard left, militant union supporting the overthrow of the capitalist system and sees it as its mission to be as awkward and intransigent as possible in negotiations and those running it look down with disdain at other unions who remain affiliated to the Labour party or who cut 'deals' with employers.

[jonathan452]

Southern rail passengers to withhold fares at protest at Victoria station - http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/southern-rail-passengers-to-withhold-fares-at-protest-at-victoria-station-a3292571.html

[JohnR]

London Reconnections has a very good article up on the causes.

 

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2016/railway-roulette/

[jonathan452]

Southern Railway is in a mess. Here’s a three-point plan to untangle it - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/04/southern-railway-passenger-protest-industrial-action

 

It is also important to consider whether TSGN is just too big and unwieldy. The largest railway franchise in the UK, it stretches from King’s Lynn to Southampton, from Milton Keynes to Hastings, and is responsible for more than 270m passenger journeys a year. There is much to be gained from stronger local involvement in the franchising process, giving TSGN’s constituent parts more autonomy, giving local authorities a stronger say in the terms, financing and management of the franchise. There should also be consideration of transferring some services to other operators, including moving further suburban services to Transport for London.

 

[roundhouse]

Luckily I am not travelling into work this week but our local users group has reports quite a few trains cancelled due to shortage of rolling stock, train faults and shortage of drivers on Thameslink all adding to the reduced service.

 

However most of the cuts are in off peak services with for instance, no direct trains to Victoria from Redhill.

[Kenton]

 

News reports today state that Southern Railway is introducing an emergency timetable that reduces the number of trains operated per day by 350.

 

I can't help but feel that this is political rather than/as much as an operational decision. Looks like we are indeed heading towards a major confrontation with NUR and ASLEF.

 

I don't see it as either political or operational. To me it looks like the fault of the unions and staff not to implement practices and the management biting off more than they were able to provide. For both reasons the poor customer pays the penalty. There is congestion at peak periods that is simply unmanageable. That was present log before any dispute. The dispute just has added to it and made the suffering public even worse. I don't think either side has the high ground here and perhaps a more realistic timetable is what is required. Along with a more realistic approach by the travelling public. Rail travel is relatively cheap and subsidised the result is overcapacity you can only provide a service within the physical limit of the system.

 

I am certainly no advocate of any form of nationalisation but I also don't think the existing franchise system works well either. The unions also just get in the way being totally obstructive and looking only to the past, being old fashioned industry wide than specific to the company concerned.

[2mmMark]

I believe it's a deliberate attempt to break the union involved and "send a message" to other rail unions. I've seen that attempted in the industry I worked in (aviation).  It never ends well. Both sides could do with their heads knocking together.

 

There's a pretty informative blog here:

https://davidboyle.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/the-real-reason-southern-rail-services.html

 

There's a email from a Southern staff member in the comments section which I'll reproduce here:

 

"I have just seen your blog post on the current situation at southern rail and would like to clear up some confusion around the situation.i, as most of you commuters am extremely fed up of the company spun and lies and am looking for a platform to shed some light on he situation. I tried to comment but as a non gmail user I was unable to do so. You have my permission to post my email however if you chose to do so I want it posted in its entirety if that's ok. I am an employee of southern so would appreciate it if you would refrain from making my email address public.

I know the current situation is extremely infuriating but it needs to be looked at from two sides. firstly the current agreement between govia and the DFT.
This is in fact a management contract which differ's from every other agreement throughout the country. All other TOC's hold something called a franchise agreement. Everyone is different but essentially they r responsible for the day to day running of that network. They have specific requirements they have to meet but they generally make the decisions, however with govia's management agreement they have no control or make no decisions. All he terms, targets and and plans have been set out by the DFT. Govia are simply there to implement the changes.
This is unique and has occurred for one reason and one reason only. A test bed for the rest of the country.
In 2011 a report called the McNulty report was published sand set out a number of wide ranging proposals for cutting cost on he railways. Since then the DFT has been putting together a plan to 'streamline' costing on the railway. One of the major changes was to rid the network of guards. (Along with many other members of staff)
What we are seeing (along with arriva Wales and first scotrail) is the beginning of these changes. Many people have asked why MP's and media outlets have been so quite on the matter and as to why govia have no fear of losing the franchise. This is because they are purely the axemen. The DFT will not remove them as they want the company to be the face of the changes to avoid huge public objections aimed at the conservative government. The senior management are purely being told what to do. It's written in their agreement. I have been through the 668 pages of the agreement and they are given financial bonuses based on the inline notation of the changes. However only a freedom of information request will allow us to obtain the actual financial figures. The CEO Charles Horton was brought in to do a similar job (albeit in a smaller scale) at connex. Peter wilkinson speech was an insight into the DFT's and governments plans. It also per toy aligns with the plan to rid the country of unions.
After many failed attempts with filed bills both in the House of Parliament and House of Lords, the conservatives see this as a perfect opportunity to kill of the unions. No staff = no members = no unions.

Secondly you have to appreciate the serve lack of staffing and staff moral within the company. For years the franchise has relied upon staff working rest days to cover the basic timetable. It's estimated the company is operating at 80% staffing levels. Hence you have the current problem. The company has indeed removed rest day working from striking staff members causing the problems you are experiencing. This will unfortunately never change to conserve profits. They would rather be under staffed and pay overtime when needed then have the required number staff and have some being 'spare' when staff sickness/holiday levels are low. I can also confirm that morale is at an all time low. The pure nastiness and bullying from senior management has been on a level never experienced before.
I hope this has cleared up some issues and hopefully opens the eyes of many of the travelling public.
I hope you are able to spread this to as many people as possible.
Kind regards"

[Nearholmer]

It is very tempting to say that this is the sort of b*****s muddle that results when the managerial structure/arrangements of a railway that has a natural integrity is fragmented. But, I shalln't give in to that temptation.

 

K

[roundhouse]

After two days of just a few cancelled trains, today there have been quite a few on our route according to our local users FB page due staff shortages despite the reduced service.

[The Stationmaster]

London Reconnections has a very good article up on the causes.

 

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2016/railway-roulette/

 

I have never heard of 'Sunday Rest Day Working'.  The  situation is that Sunday has never been part of the basic rostered week BUT it has almost invariably been a rostered day, and it very definitely has never been a Rest Day (as they can only occur during the rostered week).  In other words Sunday has always been additionally rostered outside the basic hours but Sunday working has, in effect been a compulsory part of the roster.

 

If you were to, say, make Sunday part of the rostered week you would immediately need more Drivers - the exact number depends on the level of service you run - for the very simple reason that you are extending the rostered week over all days of the week instead of over 6 days.  as a Driver can only work a limited number of hours in the week - however long their working week happens to be - simple maths (which seems to be beyond the author of that 'article').  There is also the key question of what is known in the industry as 'Hidden 18' - recommendation No.18 in Mr Justice Hidden's report into the Clapham collision where he  (rightly) identified excessive number of days worked without a break as one of teh critical factors in the events which led to that collision.

 

The simple maths are indeed remarkably simple - each Driver, as with any other employee, has a contracted number of hours which they work and that can be measured over a period of days, weeks, months or even years.  In later BR years it was measured over cycles of 8 weeks.  That period did not include Sundays - they were additional time worked (and hence additional pay on top of the basic weekly/monthly etc salary) and were thus attractive as they provided additional income.  If an operator moved to a base roster covering all seven days of the week - and one had, even before BR ceased to exist, while others have since - then you need more Drivers because your rostered work commitment is larger.  But obviously if people are moved from a 6 day working week to a 7 day working week they will obviously expect to be remunerated for it (rather like Junior Doctors in some respects although in thjeir case the extension was from a 5 day week to a 6 day week.

 

As far as covering training, leave and sickness etc the situation has always been equally simple although short-termism on the part of some franchise managers has led to a confused (and to be honest ridiculous) situation where that cover has been dspensed with and instead achieved (usually badly) by Rest Day working.  This is what happened on London Midland and it has happened elsewhere and it probably explains the shortfall in Driver numbers against establishment when the Southern franchise changed hands.  By not filling vacancies and relying on Rest Day Working managers ( a word i use advisedly in this context) effectively mortgage the future of the franchise but hopefully they avoid the inevitable refusal to work Rest Days when their franchise term is up.  equally if drivers are working Rest Days to cover various shortfalls then obviously they are going to want some time off and the natural thing to do is withdraw from Sunday working.  and of course Hidden 18 means they can't both work their Rest Days and work Sundays.

 

As far as DfT or anyone else knowing about the early shortfall in Driver numbers the simple question is 'why on earth should they?'  DfT get involved far too much in micro-managing the industry but that would be taking it to ridiculous levels although anyone seeking to bid fora  franchise ought to be looking for such things.  Driver recruitment  'south of London' has been a major issue for as long as I can remember and depots there have always had a high turnover without 'flogging the willing horses' by dumping ever more Rest day or Sunday working onto them.  Proper strategic consideration within the franchise management would have recognised all these potential problems long before they turned round and bit them on their rumps.  It is hardly difficult although it does require experience and you do need to know what to look for and when - I managed exactly that sort of situation in a passenger train operating company for 6 years and knew, or could fairly quickly calculate, what any change to employment conditions or future train service alterations would have on our need for traincrew and when they would be needed.

 

To me it looks very much as if Southern's present management not only started in a hole with an inherited shortage of Drivers against establishment but i seriously question if they really knew what their establishment provided for in terms of work coverage and they then failed to look forwards and plan for it.  And as for 14 months to fully train a Driver it suggests to me that they need to get a firm grip on their Route Knowledge norms and allocation of work between depots because that figure is excessive for any properly managed work allocation - that isn't down to the drivers, it's down to management.

 

Sorry to launch off but while there are some good points in that linked piece the whole matter of Driver establishments and relating their size to workload and employment conditions seems to be very badly informed and even more badly thought through.  

[roythebus]

According to informed inside source, the Southern usually has 80-odd drivers off long-term sick, often through one-under incidents, unfortunately on the increase. The southern fleet is running at beyond its capacity, simply not enough trains to cover the rostered work allowing for engineering spares, maintenance, heavy overhaul etc. For instance, if one of the diesel units fail, there's no spare to cover it and the train gets cancelled.

 

Everything has been pared to the bone over the years, yet under the new franchise they were expected to run something like 10% more services with the same resources.

 

As for route learning, in my days at Waterloo, some folk there never completed their route learning simply because the turnover of staff was so great. In my own case I never got to learn "across the branch" Guildford-Ascot, not Bournemouth/Weymouth, though I only started learning that 2 months before the management had a falling out with me, so most of my last weeks there were spent learning a route i would never work over. Such short-sightedness existed even in the 1980's. I was one of about 25 drivers out of 200 at Waterloo at the time who signed Portsmouth, hence a lot of my time was doing the Pompey road and the Waterloo & City!

 

I still feel a lot of the current problems especially the possible elimination of unions is part of the privtised industry here and in Europe to do so. Remember, there's been disputes in Belgium and France over the last few months. Who are the players in the Govia franchise? Maybe French and Belgian companies?

[roundhouse]

Govia is part if not wholly French.

Big fire at Battersea tonight adding to the train reductions

[Gwiwer]

Having seen the rise and fall of Southern "Failway" from the point of view of a passenger, and one with some background in the industry to boot, I have every empathy with the train crew grades and not one jot of time for the so-called management.  

 

From what we thought was a nadir when under Connex the service, the morale and the train presentation rose sharply when Southern arrived on the scene.  Yes there were issues but there have always been issues with a huge and busy railway. There were shortages of staff back in the 1960s which caused cancellations but not to the extent we have now.  Toys were not chucked out of prams.

 

South Eastern was, by popular repute, in a mess.  Southern and South Eastern had their top men exchanged and we have seen the upturn in South Eastern's reputation and the collapse of Southern's.  Could there be a link?

 

I fully understand what Mike (SM) has to say and respect his years of experience across the industry.  It doesn't take a lot of brain-power to see that GTR are being used (abused?) as the Government's whipping-boy for enforced change but are spinning a web of part-truths to the customer base and their staff.  That earns no trust from any side.

 

Having been victim to Southern's inability to run the advertised service on almost every occasion I attempted to use it during May and June the all-time low for me was reached on a trip back from London to the Sussex coast.  With just about every Southern train cancelled out of Victoria their "colleagues" standing guard at the Gatwick Express barriers refused all Southern ticket-holders access to the GX trains to Brighton despite them being a part of the same business. Franchise, we we have learned, is not quite the right word in this case.  As I understand things the National Conditions of Carriage require passengers to be conveyed by the next most expeditious means in the event of significant disruption.  Surely that is on a train from A to B run by the same business albeit painted red instead of green?  By the by it took well over two hours to reach Brighton when it should have taken less than one.  

Worse was to come.  Nothing was running west along the coast until the last shuttle to Hove some two hours ahead.  All trains were announced as cancelled "Due to high staff sickness".  Yet among the crowds hovering around platforms 1 and 2 were a group of uniformed Southern conductors audibly discussing the fact that they had been sent home despite being booked on, ready and willing to work.  It was very obvious from their conversation that Southern had no intention of running the trains despite having the rolling stock and staff available to do so.  We were advised that Brighton & Hove buses were accepting train tickets. B&H buses do not run west of Shoreham.  Many of use were trying to reach destinations well beyond that town.  The last (Chichester) train had been cancelled leaving perhaps 100 stranded with no way home.  I chose to wait it out and use the last train rather than pay for a taxi.

And in case anyone suggests that the GTR "franchise" is too large and unwieldy for one operator and one man at the top may I just remind you of two words which prove the exact opposite?  Chris Green.

 

If he could someone else can.  It is time to end this woeful apology of a rail service.  Things will not return to "normal" for some considerable time but they will only worsen as things stand. That may irreparably harm both the Southern and the rail boom nationwide.  We cannot afford that.

[roundhouse]

It's a complete shambles and we often don't stay in London after work these days unles it already gone into meltdown.

 

I used to support Southern when they were awarded the franchise and again for the second time.

 

I know a fair few people who work for Southern who won't engage in conversation in anything to do with it and others will but not one has anything good to say if they do.

 

How can such a big organisation be allowed to create so much bad feeling despite their share price plummeting even before the Brexit vote.

 

Luckily for the Government other bigger issues have overtaken this mess that affects a huge part of the Southeast and I doubt anything I'll change considering the demographics of the voters (there is very little chance of our MP ever being voted out by another party and despite supposedly being actively involved in speaking with the govern,net he made his views quite Lear re the unions) so it isn' on anyone's top priorities but to just let it carry on in a complete mess.

 

Really not looking forward to getting back home even more so than usual. Our bosses not interested in us getting Into work and getting home again. We just have to be ther and do the job.

 

I just hope that other operators see sense and avoid getting into such absurd contracts with Daft.

I may be hoping way too much though.

[62613]

Really not looking forward to getting back home even more so than usual. Our bosses not interested in us getting Into work and getting home again. We just have to be ther and do the job.

All part of the same thing, isn't it?

[Bruce Depot]

Bring back Chris Green and NSE.....:-)

[Gwiwer]

Bring back Chris Green and NSE.....:-)

 

 

While I like the idea in principal and it worked rather well for the most part in practice there are obstacles now which might prevent such a thing happening again.

 

GTR is as close as we're likely to get to NSE in the current environment.  TfL are making a land-grab for more and more of the traditional suburban services where they can.  Crossrail has been expensively financed and let as a standalone franchise which could not be lightly given up.  Compare NSE's Thameslink which was not financed the same way AFAIK and used existing infrastructure in NSE days though it has been in a constant state of upgrade and expansion since.

 

The main line operators would remain outside the "NSE" as BR IC sector did before with some such as GWR losing significant amounts of their operations.  

 

Oh - and Chris Green has retired.  But another charismatic and energetic leader might emerge.  

 

If GTR cannot be put right (and I acknowledge that the GN and to a large extent the TL sections already are "right") then I cannot see any government in the future allowing all of the London and Greater South East railways to be run by one operator.  

[The Stationmaster]

Bring back Chris Green and NSE.....:-)

 

Chris Green was very good at 'big ideas' and forcing through schemes leaving others to sort out any resultant financial mess behind him when schemes failed to meet usual investment criteria.  But at the detail level he needed - and usually seems to have got - folk who knew what they were doing so a good manager in that respect.

 

But in terms of service innovation he was not much different from anyone else when faced by a set of constrained circumstances.  He did a job as a consultant for the operator I worked for and brought his proposals to me for validation of their practicality, when he arrived in my office I gave him a sealed envelope and told him that when he opened it he would find it a very close, if not identical, match for the service pattern he was proposing (and which up until then I hadn't seen).  Apart from a starting point/starting time for one train his proposal was almost  was almost an exact match with the service I had given him in the sealed envelope.  I don't claim to be a s clever or cleverer than him in devising a trainplan although I probably had far more direct experience of the process than he had but the point is that very often a railway operation and hence a trainplan and hence a timetable has to be put together against a known series of constraints such as fleet size or timetable paths.  When you are bound by such constraints then all the answers to the problem are likely to be basically similar.

 

The only way to effect a major (or sometimes even a minor) change is to alter some of the constraints.  For example on Southern there is a clear need - against current commitments - for more Drivers, some of that can be altered (but only slightly) by various managerial methods such as revised link structure.  Greater change might be possible through more flexible rostering and employment conditions (but it's daft doing it unless you actually first calculate which changes would be beneficial and assess the cost benefit of such proposals).  The big problem is the long standing one of recruiting Drivers. or trainees, to depots 'south of the Thames and retaining them once you have got them but that is a far more difficult question than can be answered by some inexperienced Civil Servant sat in DafT or a consultant shipped in at great expense from a foreign land as the first thing anyone needs to understand is why turnover is high or recruitment is ineffective - simple answer to that one is that cr*p work has never appealed to Drivers.  And slagging them off appeals even less to them.

[roundhouse]

Mikr

Your last sentence sums it up really. If a company is openly criticising it's workforce when they are short of staff in the first place then it's only going to get worse.

[phil-b259]

Mikr

Your last sentence sums it up really. If a company is openly criticising it's workforce when they are short of staff in the first place then it's only going to get worse.

Indeed - unfortunately nobody wants to listen in DfT land - who instigated all this (Southern are only doing what their management contact expected them to do) and are still blaming as much of the problem as they can on the Unions or staff 'sickness'. A bit of humility from their side might allow Southern's management to back off a bit in terms of their staff criticism.

[roundhouse]

Claire Perry has resigned. I am having another pint in celebration. Well I would have had another anyway and doesn't mean things will get better!

[jonathan452]

Just as well I didn't take a days leave today to brave the journey to the beach.

 

Normally I travel from London Bridge (although noting that the residual off peak service to Brighton has latterly been formed of four coaches only).

 

However the Forest Hill 'sink hole' put paid to that.

 

It is very difficult to explain to people in my office that travelling via either Victoria or Clapham Junction on a day like today would be a nightmare.

 

And so the below testifies.

 

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/14628295.Police_called_as_tempers_flare_and_punches_thrown_on_packed_train_service/

 

"Unfortunately, the train was more crowded than usual because it was made up of four carriages instead of the usual eight.

 

[jonathan452]

According to informed inside source, the Southern usually has 80-odd drivers off long-term sick, often through one-under incidents, unfortunately on the increase. The southern fleet is running at beyond its capacity, simply not enough trains to cover the rostered work allowing for engineering spares, maintenance, heavy overhaul etc. For instance, if one of the diesel units fail, there's no spare to cover it and the train gets cancelled.

Plenty of 'Plastic Pigs' laid up in the sidings at Three Bridges!

[roundhouse]

Don't you mean Forest Hole, it's been renamed

 

Hang on have t Southern cancelled over 300 services, surely they should have quite a few extra units. I know it's going to be a huge amount as one diagram covers a number of cancelled services but should ease the situation.

 

On a very crowded Thameslink. Last night at Vic was a complete farce even after 7 pm as we waited till we thought that it might have quitened down hence trying a different way home tonight