Southern's Timetable Reduction

[Peter Kazmierczak]

You could always use SWT and come to Bournemouth.......

[Purley Oaks]

Interesting debate about railways on the Guardian website today inspired by the problems faced by Southern, but developing into a chat about whether renationalisation, mutualisation or the break-up of Network Rail is the answer; one response looks at public transport in Paris

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/live/2016/aug/11/should-our-rail-services-be-renationalised-live-debate

Mal

[Gwiwer]

Southern would have to get rolling stock and train crew in the right places at the right times and also ensure all concerned were notified of the suspended industrial action and altered working arrangements.  That can take a day or two.  They then have to submit the train plan for the national database (the industry insiders can tell me how long that might take) and then hope things work as intended.

 

You don't recover from a major dispute and change your timetable overnight.  It does take a little longer than that.

 

Or as my brother-in-law, who commutes between Worthing, Hove, Brighton and Croydon according to work needs, "Southern's predictable 8-car every-30-minutes "strike" service has been replaced with Southern's "emergency" timetable of a 3-car train running once an hour and more or less when it suits them.  Predictable disruption has been replaced with unpredictable disruption once more."

[jjb1970]

One of the things that perplexes me is the way so many British people beat up our rail system and go on about how everywhere else is better. There are aspects of overseas railways that are better than ours, particularly high speed IC services in countries with purpose built high speed lines but on the whole I find that if you consider things from a perspective of "how easy is it to get to where I need to go" then the UK does very well. I travel a lot overseas on business and it is interesting to compare the ease of journeys. I've never been that impressed with Germany or France. The Netherlands is very good and Belgium pretty good but I'd not consider either to be better than the UK network. I find the Swiss system a bit over rated as whenever I use it trains seem to have problems. There are plenty of others, I enjoy travelling in Italy by rail but its not the best service. Most others I've used are much worse. The only network I have ever felt really did show us how to do it was Japan.

Ditto on trains. People keep putting our trains down but with some exceptions I've found typical UK trains to be as clean, comfortable and user friendly as any others. A lot of the trains overseas are very basic with atrocious seating in particular.

The current debacle on Southern is not typical of the network and shouldn't be seen as such. One of the problems is that debates about the railways often end up in a polarised nationalised vs. privatised circular argument which helps nothing. The Southern issues are inept management, a militant union with dreams of toppling the government and DafT civil servants who are playing political games with the consent of their political masters. I'd argue that if anything a genuinely private Southern would not be in this mess as management wouldn't be told what to do by civil servants.

[roundhouse]

Looks like our services are back to normal according ot Natiuonal Rail departures board.

 

Having travelled extensively by train in many countries, yes ours is a very intensive service. However where many other countries have had high  investment ours were starved for many years and now that land vlaues are so high its now very difficult for ours to find room to add more track where its needed most.

 

Also places such as Germany do have their own problems of recent years.

 

We travel around the Uk a lot by train but have had to cut back such trips as it can often take as long to get from London to Redhill than from places such as Derby Manchester etc to London.

 

The few of us at work (until recently it was only me) that use the Brighton mainline are seen as a bit of a joke as we are often late into work. My earlier train was withdrawn when the LBG rebuild started in earnest and earlier ones are standing room only. Our normal train home hasnt been on time more than once this year. People used to jump off it at Redhill and change onto the GWR service but it now only ever makes a connection if ours is a little less late than usual and the GWR one is running late.

 

It does grind you down when its virtually everyday and many a time I have gotten into work only to get stupid comments off fellow workers who dont understand whats going on as their services are generally fine, many a time I have nearly resigned.

[jjb1970]

Most of my colleagues commute with Southern into Victoria and it has been a difficult time to put it mildly. We are very lucky in having a sympathetic employer and if necessary we can work from home but some less fortunate souls have really suffered as a result of this debacle. A few months ago people thought I was mad commuting into Euston then walking over to Victoria, now I am envied, it is terrible. Those trying to rely on Southern really do have my sympathy.

[roundhouse]

Most of my colleagues commute with Southern into Victoria and it has been a difficult time to put it mildly. We are very lucky in having a sympathetic employer and if necessary we can work from home but some less fortunate souls have really suffered as a result of this debacle. A few months ago people thought I was mad commuting into Euston then walking over to Victoria, now I am envied, it is terrible. Those trying to rely on Southern really do have my sympathy.

This week my other half has been able to work from home  for a few days as per other strike days. This has made it a bit easier as she has driven me to Caterham station (already DOO) but that has meant leaving home 50 minutes earlier than normal. The few days we have both gone in we have caught a bus to Coulsdon Town but have to wait 30 minutes for the train so a similar early start. one bloke who has recently rejoined our company, lives in Caterham and cant see the problem but he rides his motorbike to Morden or Balham has free parking and tubes it from there. I dont have a motorbike to squeeze through the traffic nor want one . Hes fallen off a few times and been in hospital!

[roundhouse]

Our train very quiet this morning. Still have spare seats around me.

 

There is still a 20mph speed restriction in theup direction at thesouth end of Forest Hill where the two snu holes appeared in recent weeks with a lot of pipe work alongside in the currently closed footpath.

[Gwiwer]

BiL has just posted a shot of the departures board at Worthing.  As he predicted the "service" is back to random chaos instead of the predictable every-half-hour strike service.  There are no trains to Brighton between 06.24 and 07.42.  The 06.41 is not in the "emergency" timetable as it forms part of the axed Southampton service (despite starting from Portsmouth), the 07.06 and 07.13 are cancelled and the 07.38 being a Southampton train is also not in the emergency timetable.  The 07.42 is a 3-car unit coming from Littlehampton which means it might well be full to capacity by Worthing with no space for the hundreds waiting ......... 

[Claude_Dreyfus]

The direct London Bridge to Bognor suddenly reappeared on the timetable last might, but as it was so last-minute it was virtually empty! The corresponding morning direct is also running, but as Ian says, it's very quiet...quieter than normal for a Friday in August (people are getting seats as far up the line as Crawley!).

 

The Arun Valley line had a strange anomaly, due to long-term engineering work. We have a replacement bus south of Horsham from about 21:00. Even when all of the trains finished at about 19:00, the bus replacement still ran.

[John M Upton]

The DRS Class 68 (68022) atop a pair of stoneblowers stuck in platform 3 at Horsham didn't help though..

[roundhouse]

My other had to go to the dentist this morning. She's now at RDH. Explains why next Horshsm LBG train is late.

 

Edit

 

She then went to go for the on time Bedford service which was then cancelled!!

[Claude_Dreyfus]

The DRS Class 68 (68022) atop a pair of stoneblowers stuck in platform 3 at Horsham didn't help though..

Which probably accounted for why we sat outside of Horsham for a few minutes. I missed what was on the other end. It came down from Carlisle last night.

[The Stationmaster]

BiL has just posted a shot of the departures board at Worthing.  As he predicted the "service" is back to random chaos instead of the predictable every-half-hour strike service.  There are no trains to Brighton between 06.24 and 07.42.  The 06.41 is not in the "emergency" timetable as it forms part of the axed Southampton service (despite starting from Portsmouth), the 07.06 and 07.13 are cancelled and the 07.38 being a Southampton train is also not in the emergency timetable.  The 07.42 is a 3-car unit coming from Littlehampton which means it might well be full to capacity by Worthing with no space for the hundreds waiting ......... 

 

All of which is either down to shambolic planning or staff not turning in for work (or simply not existing in the first place).  And 100% of that is down to management.

 

But let's think for a moment - if the current management have treated and threatened their train planning staff in the way they have treated and threatened their traincrew are those train planners likely to set to with a will and put in loads of extra hours to help get things back working?  Quite honestly if they have a management which seemingly doesn't care then why should they?  I might be totally misreading the situation but the basics remain exactly the same - timetables are created and resourced by people just as much as they are governed by resource availability.  And the provision and encouragement of those people is a management function - so back to my 100% in my opening sentence.

[roundhouse]

All of which is either down to shambolic planning or staff not turning in for work (or simply not existing in the first place).  And 100% of that is down to management.

 

But let's think for a moment - if the current management have treated and threatened their train planning staff in the way they have treated and threatened their traincrew are those train planners likely to set to with a will and put in loads of extra hours to help get things back working?  Quite honestly if they have a management which seemingly doesn't care then why should they?  I might be totally misreading the situation but the basics remain exactly the same - timetables are created and resourced by people just as much as they are governed by resource availability.  And the provision and encouragement of those people is a management function - so back to my 100% in my opening sentence.

The companies where I have put a lot more effort into are those that encourage and support rather than just SH1t on their staff.

[phil-b259]

The talks have broken down - be prepared fir more strikes. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37085633

 

While the RMT have seemingly accepted that the Guard / Conductor / Train Service Manager / On Board Supervisor will not be responsible for dispatch or door operation in future - they are digging their heals in for a second person to be on board for the train to run at all times.

 

GTR apparently rejected this from the outset - they want the ability to run services without a second person in 'unforeseen / exceptional  circumstances'.

 

See:-

 

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-issues-full-set-of-proposals-rejected-by-gtr150816/

 

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/southern-dispute-talks-breakdown150816/

 

Also I see the media are behaving to type:-

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/13/rmt-union-mick-cash-strike-southern-rail-eurostar-industrial-action

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1606700/rmt-union-president-hides-out-in-luxury-turkish-resort-while-commuters-suffer-weeks-of-crippling-southern-rail-strikes/

[roundhouse]

Yes, here we go again. Much as expected really.

 

After great weekend on GWR services when we got back to Redhill yesterday afternoon just seeing a Southern train reminded me of the recent poor service and whats likely to come. Not even the ticket off ice was manned yesterday and no barrier staff to be seen with just one ticket gate open so the gate guy must have been around somewhere.

 

This Saturday we are out an about but luckily we have  Half hourly diverted Southeastern service via Redhill to LBG so should be reliable enough to make use of.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm afraid this dispute is never going to be settled if RMT continue to conflate two totally different sets of criteria especially when they include one which has never existed in the past and then start to use and advertise it as their main plank of opposition.  The very simple fact is that the RMT, and others, are misrepresenting the role of the Guard and very forcefully presenting it as something which it is not and and never has been.

 

Oddly I came across a similar situation when dealing with an electricity generating plant where their Safety Manager and I were talking about a particular area of safety concern.  We were having great difficulty reaching common ground until we stopped and then went through piece by piece exactly not only what we wanted but what we wanted it for - and of course while we were both keen to achieve minimisation of risks and maximum levels of safety we were in fact seeking various mutual exclusivities.  Once we wound it back to the absolute basics we managed to get somewhere.

 

We have a similar sort of situation here.  DOO(P) train operation has to comply with a fairly straightforward list of requirements - it it meets those operational safety requirements it is then permissible.  But note the important words in there - 'operational safety', in other words is it safe from a railway operating safety viewpoint for the train to run DOO?  The answer will inevitably be 'yes' or 'no' and that is a decision for and the responsibility of the operations folk in the operating company concerned; the decision can't (legally) be made by a politician or someone sitting in a Ministry or even someone sitting in RSSB - it can only be made by those who have the responsibility for it as part of their Safety Case and SMS.  In consultation staff reps (but not a union officer) can quite legitimately raise concerns about the way in which operational safety requirements will be met but in the end whatever they might say the operational safety responsibility lies 100% with the train operators.

 

But if you then throw in things about passenger having fights, fits or fun (in its various forms) you are both ignoring the core issue and conflating the whole matter.  While a Guard (and railway staff and police officers travelling on, or even off, duty) can pitch in to help or 'do their best' we are not talking about the traditional (or current) duties of the Guard and we are definitely not talking about the operational safety decision.  Some trade unions are, it increasingly appears, almost as good at muddying waters as politicians and members of some parts of the legal trade.

[royaloak]

The talks have broken down - be prepared fir more strikes. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37085633

 

While the RMT have seemingly accepted that the Guard / Conductor / Train Service Manager / On Board Supervisor will not be responsible for dispatch or door operation in future - they are digging their heals in for a second person to be on board for the train to run at all times.

 

GTR apparently rejected this from the outset - they want the ability to run services without a second person in 'unforeseen / exceptional  circumstances'.

 

See:-

 

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-issues-full-set-of-proposals-rejected-by-gtr150816/

 

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/southern-dispute-talks-breakdown150816/

 

Also I see the media are behaving to type:-

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/13/rmt-union-mick-cash-strike-southern-rail-eurostar-industrial-action

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1606700/rmt-union-president-hides-out-in-luxury-turkish-resort-while-commuters-suffer-weeks-of-crippling-southern-rail-strikes/

So what happened to 'no preconditions'?

It sounds like the RMT were willing to give a bit but Management were not and were sticking to exactly what they have been trying to push through.

[Fenman]

So what happened to 'no preconditions'?

It sounds like the RMT were willing to give a bit but Management were not and were sticking to exactly what they have been trying to push through.

Sounds to me like both sides had preconditions. There don't seem to be any angels here.

 

Paul

[wombatofludham]

I'm not going to discuss the whole Southern debacle here, I have my views but they are not based on any direct involvement, but one thing does puzzle me, and that is the apparent discrepancy between airline safety staffing levels and those considered acceptable on the railways.

 

Airlines have to operate their aircraft with a minimum number of cabin crew based on the capacity of the aircraft.  That figure isn't based on their ability to flog overpirced tat to the captive passengers, or the ability of the staff to hand-massage their first class passengers.  It's based around the "in the unlikley event" scenario of an emergency landing and the need to get people out fast.  Now, I know that aircraft emergency landings have the added severe risk of fire, but to be honest, what is the difference between having a mandatory number of safety staff in an aircraft and on a packed commuter train?  If an aircraft crashes from a great height or mid-air, there's no point in having cabin crew, you are all dead.  They are there to ensure people gfet out when the plane has made it to the ground in circumstances out of the ordinary.  Let's compare that with a crowded 12 car commuter train.  If it hit an obstruction on the line, say a landslip, and derailed fouling an adjacent running line, what would happen if it was DOO operated and the driver had struck his head and was unconcious?  You could have the equivalent of two A380 loads without any staff to tell them what to do.  Whilst other trains may be halted by the signal staff if they realised what had happened, they may not, and people being people, you could have them walking into the path of other trains - as has happened.

 

The frequency of aircraft emergency landings requiring a full evacuation is probably no greater than the incidence of trains hitting obstructions and derailing, and whilst the risk of fire in an emergency landing makes the 90 second evacuation time a necessary target, and the cabin staff numbers are based on that risk assessment, surely even though there is a much lower risk of fire in a rail incident the risk of Joe and Joanna Numpty panicking and doing stupid things must merit some sort of mandatory safety staff presence in the train commensurate with the requirements of the airline industry?

[Redkiterail]

I'm not going to discuss the whole Southern debacle here, I have my views but they are not based on any direct involvement, but one thing does puzzle me, and that is the apparent discrepancy between airline safety staffing levels and those considered acceptable on the railways.

 

Airlines have to operate their aircraft with a minimum number of cabin crew based on the capacity of the aircraft.  That figure isn't based on their ability to flog overpirced tat to the captive passengers, or the ability of the staff to hand-massage their first class passengers.  It's based around the "in the unlikley event" scenario of an emergency landing and the need to get people out fast.  Now, I know that aircraft emergency landings have the added severe risk of fire, but to be honest, what is the difference between having a mandatory number of safety staff in an aircraft and on a packed commuter train?  If an aircraft crashes from a great height or mid-air, there's no point in having cabin crew, you are all dead.  They are there to ensure people gfet out when the plane has made it to the ground in circumstances out of the ordinary.  Let's compare that with a crowded 12 car commuter train.  If it hit an obstruction on the line, say a landslip, and derailed fouling an adjacent running line, what would happen if it was DOO operated and the driver had struck his head and was unconcious?  You could have the equivalent of two A380 loads without any staff to tell them what to do.  Whilst other trains may be halted by the signal staff if they realised what had happened, they may not, and people being people, you could have them walking into the path of other trains - as has happened.

 

The frequency of aircraft emergency landings requiring a full evacuation is probably no greater than the incidence of trains hitting obstructions and derailing, and whilst the risk of fire in an emergency landing makes the 90 second evacuation time a necessary target, and the cabin staff numbers are based on that risk assessment, surely even though there is a much lower risk of fire in a rail incident the risk of Joe and Joanna Numpty panicking and doing stupid things must merit some sort of mandatory safety staff presence in the train commensurate with the requirements of the airline industry?

as part of DOO(p) trains radio must be in a workable state to received and send calls if the in the example the driver is unconcious a alarm message will be sent due to a DSD/DVD Driver Safety Device/ Driver Vigilance Device to the signaller and there are rules and procedures that are followed. If there is a landslip the emergency call would be sent as drivers are train to do 

[SwissRailPassion]

Very valid points raised here. 900 people on a packed train with no staff but a driver is a risk that other transport modes would not allow.

[jjb1970]

I think the Stationmaster has made the point that the responsibility for providing a suitable SMS and operating safely sits with the operator. They are already legally responsible for being able to demonstrate the suitability of their safety case and SMS. I do not see this dispute as being a safety dispute, it is a labour dispute for sure and it raises profound questions about DafT influence and the competence of GTR management but the safety stuff is a red herring. The airline comparison is not really valid as the whole risk profile is fundamentally different.

[SwissRailPassion]

After the prosecution over the Liverpool James St incident precedent has been set. The background to this dispute comes after heightened sensitivity to the guards role in train dispatch. There were genuine concerns amongst staff before this confrontation began.