Dumb Buffered Wagons

[BG John]

We're having a discussion on dumb buffered wagons on the Broad Gauge Society eGroup, and someone has suggested something that I'd never heard before. He suggested that dumb buffered wagons on the narrow (standard) gauge had to be marshalled together in a train, with a converter wagon to join to the sprung buffered ones. He pointed to a photo of a wagon with dumb buffers at one end and sprung at the other as an example.

 

Is this true? I'd always thought that sprung at one end and dumb at the other was just an economy measure that gave some springing.

 

The reason for the discussion is that I'm interested to know if dumb buffers were used on the broad gauge, and if so, how they were fitted, as broad gauge buffer spacing was the same as standard gauge, so the buffers are inside the wheels. A lot of dumb buffers were extensions of the solebar, so were obviously outside the wheels.

 

On page 1 of Jim Russell's "Great Western Wagons Appendix", there's a photo of what is claimed to be an ex-broad gauge GWR wagon with dumb buffers, that suggests they did exist on the broad gauge.

 

I'm interested in both broad and standard gauge, as I like dumb buffered wagons, and want to model as many as I can get away with!

[rockershovel]

My understanding is that GWR dual-gauge track had a single rail one side, in the usual fashion; so even if the buffer centres were the same dimension, they were not concentric and so, did not align.

 

Dual gauge shunting certainly took place, East Broad Top comes to mind, and I've seen images of a tiny narrow-gauge Baldwin 0-4-0ST fitted with a bar coupler about two metres long for this, but I have never seen stock of different gauges mustered together in a train formation (no doubt someone will now produce a link or image showing exactly this... )

[BG John]

There were converter wagons for running broad and standard gauge wagons in the same train, but that's not what I'm asking about. It's whether standard gauge dumb buffered wagons had to run together, with a converter wagon to separate them from sprung buffers, on standard gauge lines. And also did they exist at all on the broad gauge, and if so how and where were they fitted?

[Spitfire2865]

Wagons with a dumb buffer at one end and sprung at the other were not "converter" wagons. That is only neccessary if the primary form of coupling is different within the train. As all wagons use buffer and chain, it all is acceptable.

 

It was simply a poorly thought out cost saving measure, which is why it was replaced by fully sprung buffers.

 

As broadgauge wagons had buffers inboard of the solebars, as to make it impossible to just continue them for the buffer head, I wouldnt be surprised if it took the form of early loco dumb buffers. The round ones with tons of padding. Just a speculation, but if I had to design a wagon with it, thats what Id go with.

[BG John]

Looking at the photos in Keith Montague's Gloucester Wagons book, it seems that the earlier ones they built had the buffer as a continuation of the solebar, while later ones were separate attachments to the buffer beam, so they could well have been fitted this way. But the photo in Great Western Wagons Appendix after conversion shows the buffers as part of the solebar. The drawings of broad gauge wagons I've seen show timber running longways between the buffers, so maybe on conversion the width was cut down and these became the new solebars.

 

The broad gauge bit is a big mystery, but the keeping them separate from sprung buffers bit must have a clear answer.

[Quarryscapes]

No there was no need for a converter wagon. It would be unworkable - How would you get a single dumb buffered P.O. (for example) out into a train if you had to attach converter wagons - turned to face the right way I might add- to each end in order to stick it on the end of a pick up goods and attach a brake van.

[Edwardian]

I understood that the Mid-Suffolk retained some dumb buffer opens, and read somewhere that these were restricted to 'internal user' duties, whilst the conventionally buffered wagons of the company were able to go 'foreign'.  I had thought of a similar arrangement on the WNR.

 

Some 1870s POs I have been looking at appear to have the dumb buffers formed using an extending solebar.  I presume that I can simply run the dumb and conventionally buffered wagons together?

[BG John]

No there was no need for a converter wagon. It would be unworkable - How would you get a single dumb buffered P.O. (for example) out into a train if you had to attach converter wagons - turned to face the right way I might add- to each end in order to stick it on the end of a pick up goods and attach a brake van.

That's what I've always thought.

[BG John]

I understood that the Mid-Suffolk retained some dumb buffer opens, and read somewhere that these were restricted to 'internal user' duties, whilst the conventionally buffered wagons of the company were able to go 'foreign'.  I had thought of a similar arrangement on the WNR.

They were banned from main lines from 31st December 1913, which explains that. However, as that was only just before the start of WW1, when the period I regard as "modern image" started, it's irrelevant to me!!

[Edwardian]

They were banned from main lines from 31st December 1913, which explains that. However, as that was only just before the start of WW1, when the period I regard as "modern image" started, it's irrelevant to me!!

 

That's useful, thanks, so the regulation will not apply to the WNR's stock as the layout is set c.1905!

[BG John]

That was true in England and Wales.

In Scotland, dumb buffered wagons continued in use until the Grouping.

Norfolk is in England, so that's what matters to Edwardian, and the whole of the GWR and the Kent & East Sussex Railway were too, and that's what matters to me .

[Caley Jim]

That was true in England and Wales.

In Scotland, dumb buffered wagons continued in use until the Grouping.

There is an LMS drawing for the conversion of dumb buffered wagons to spindle buffered.  I recall seeing it on the old OPC list.

 

I too have something of a soft spot for dumb buffered wagons.  The CR mixed dumb and spindle buffered wagons in trains.

 

Jim

[Guy Rixon]

The majority of wagons I've seen with dumb buffers at one end were welsh "shipping" wagons: used between collieries and ports with coal hoists and so tending to end up with the end doors facing the same way (any facing the wrong way were turned at the port just before going on the hoist). This makes some sense, as the trains typically have one set of buffing springs between each pair of vehicles and that's fine for moving coal. I can't see it working out for goods wagons.

[scotcent]

As  I  understand  it,  the  virtue  of  sprung  (spindle)  buffers  was  to  provide  some  resilience  in  the  length  of  a  train.  I've  heard  of  wagons  with  sprung  buffers  at  one  end  only,  but  my  understanding  was  that  they  were  only  to  be  found  on  Welsh  colliery  lines.  Certainly  I've  never  heard  of  them  in  Scotland.  But  it  would  make  an  interesting  talking  point!  And  for  the  model,  as  for  the  prototype,  it  would  make  them  easier  and  cheaper  to  build.

 

Allan  F

[CKPR]

That was true in England and Wales.

In Scotland, dumb buffered wagons continued in use until the Grouping.

 

And in West Cumberland as well - the M&CR and C&WJR had many dumb buffered wagons that were restricted to their home lines on set routes (e.g. to and from Maryport docks)

[laurenceb]

When the rule about sprung buffers was introduced there was no mention  of how many buffer had to be fitted, so some owners saved money by only fitted two!

[webbcompound]

I agree with lauremceb. On the WMCQR the trader wagons started off as dumb buffered, then some were upgraded to a single set of self contained buffers, and finally others were upgraded to self contained buffers at both ends. This appears to have taken place as stock was in for repair and rebuild. They were all only used to move bricks on the Buckley line to the docks at Connah's Quay (North Wales). Here are a couple of mine under construction showing both modified variants.

[wagonman]

I believe some GWR broad gauge shunting engines had extra wide buffers so they could cope with shunting narrow gauge wagons as well, but I don't know of them being moved in the same train. All BG wagons that I am aware of had sprung buffers of one sort or another. Brown's Patent seemed quite popular.

 

As has been said, the sprung one end PO wagons were mostly/exclusively to be found in S Wales. They were built from the late 1860s/early 1870s onwards I believe (that bit from memory).

 

Normal dumb buffer wagons used extensions of the solebars with extra clumping pieces bolted onto the inside face to make a square section. A few late built examples had the wooden buffers bolted onto the headstock so the later replacement with self contained sprung buffers was relatively simple. Does make you wonder why they bothered though. All PO wagons built after 1887 were to the "New Specification" and had spindle sprung buffers and through drawgear from new – which meant that the solebars had to be a bit further apart. Many of the older wagons were later rebuilt/converted/reconstructed (depending on how much work was done) in the 1900s and were re-registered, being fitted with the lozenge shaped plate rather than the ring and crossbar type.

 

It's a sobering thought that in Edwardian times roughly half of the one million wagons in use on Britain's railways were privately owned.

[scotcent]

The  Caledonian  Railway  had  a very  large  number  of  dumb  buffered  wagons  until  quite  late  on.  (These  were  Company  wagons,  not  Traders'  wagons).  They  were  trying  to  get  rid  of  them,  but  it  took  a  while,  and  I  have  a  photograph  of  a  mineral  train  about  1900 -- 1905  whereof  at  least  half  the  wagons  are  dumb  buffered.  Many  of  the  dumb  buffered  wagons  were  converted  by  simply  sawing  off  the  dumb  buffers  and  screwing  on  self  contained  sprung  buffers.  Those  that  weren't  converted  were  largely  stored  in  sidings.

[corneliuslundie]

The reason for the popularity of wagons with sprung buffers one end in South Wales was that South Wales coal was more friable than most. This also influenced the machinery used for tipping into ships.

As stated there was a specific design of plate which was attached to wagons which had been converted from dumb buffers. But this was different from a "reconstructed" wagons, which was one where more than a certain amount of work was needed during repair and for which there was a diamond shaped plate.

Two books worth referring to are the HMRS one on Ince Company wagons, which has an introductory section on RCH specifications with many drawings of components; and Staith to Comveyor by Terry Powell., a history of coal shipping apparatus.

There is a well known photograph of dock sidings somewhere in South Wales which has both broad and standard gauge sidings and broad gauge locos with the wide buffers mentioned above. See The Vale of Neath line by Gwyn Briwnant Jones and Denis Dunstone, Gomer Press, 1996, p20 (and in other places I think) See also page 35 of Great Western Broad gauge album by A K Steele (OPC, 1972 for a loco with wide buffer extensions.

I know of no photos, however, of dumb buffered broad gauge wagons. Though that doesn't mean much.

BTW There are some nice kits available from time to time for dumb buffered coal wagons, though they are not hard to build from scratch.

Jonathan

Edited to add the two references.

[corneliuslundie]

In looking for the photo in Broad Gauge Album mentioned above, I came across the photo on page 54. It is somewhat retouched but it is the caption which is of interest:

"The goods traffic on the West Cornwall line at that time [1867] warranted but one through goods train per day, which was broad gauge until 1871, after which it was operated as a 'mixed' train, with narrow gauge wagons in front followed by a match truck and the rake of broad gauge wagons."

But looking through the few photos I know of containing broad gauge wagons I can spot none with dumb buffers.

Jonathan

[BG John]

What about the one on page 1 of Great Western Wagons Appendix? The caption claims it's ex broad gauge.

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks. I had missed that one. But looking at the photo, I can't see how square dumb buffers could be suited to both gauges at the same time. Weren't the buffer centres on broad gauge vehicles wider apart than the solebars of standard gauge wagons? And if the wagons were both on mixed gaude track one would be offset compared with the other. So can the caption be correct?

Jonathan

[BG John]

Broad gauge buffer spacing was the same as standard gauge, so I think the caption is wrong about it being used for mixed gauge trains. It's a shame there's no information on it's history. The author must have had some details of it to know it was ex broad gauge. If it was covered by a Broad Gauge Society Data Sheet it may well have the building and conversion date of every wagon, and their broad gauge running numbers, so the information may exist, or have existed. It's frustrating when authors think that anything 19th century is of no interest, and just include a few token photos that look quaint, without any useful details.

[Poggy1165]

Someone recently posted a photo on Facebook showing two (I think) dumb buffered wagons in Wath yard. I think that picture would have to be dated to 1907-1914.

 

What would be really interesting would be to know the percentage of dumb buffered wagons in say 1910 or 1914. It would vary with the area, obviously, as there would be a lot more in Scotland. But if you'd been stood on a station in (say) early 1914, would these things have been a rare sight or quite common?

 

I suppose anyone modelling a colliery could have some as internal users well after 1914.