More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

Or from POWSides for £6.50 - though without the Pressfix transfers and coarse injection-moulded plastic wheels. POWSides' postage is less too - so before bidding has started, the Ebay one is 2p shy of £14 whereas POWSides is £10 - or less if you're ordering several items. Is the Pressfix transfer sheet worth £4 when you can get the HMRS Pressfix sheet with the same transfers plus much more for £6.50 (plus postage)? Personally, I'd look for a discount to compensate me for the effort involved in throwing the plastic wheels away!

 

We don't yet know how Slaters will price these kits when they are re-introduced, or whether they will include transfers. 

[Lecorbusier]

Or from POWSides for £6.50 - though without the Pressfix transfers and coarse injection-moulded plastic wheels. POWSides' postage is less too - so before bidding has started, the Ebay one is 2p shy of £14 whereas POWSides is £10 - or less if you're ordering several items. Is the Pressfix transfer sheet worth £4 when you can get the HMRS Pressfix sheet with the same transfers plus much more for £6.50 (plus postage)? Personally, I'd look for a discount to compensate me for the effort involved in throwing the plastic wheels away!

 

We don't yet know how Slaters will price these kits when they are re-introduced, or whether they will include transfers. 

The POWSides MR 3 plank kit ... would you happen to know which diagram this is based on ?

[Compound2632]

The POWSides MR 3 plank kit ... would you happen to know which diagram this is based on ?

 

This is the Slater's kit. It is for D305 wagons built to Drawing 1143, i.e. those built 1897-1907. They need door stops adding - see my build. Earlier D305 wagons, to Drawing 213, had sloping-ended headstocks to act as door stops and 8A grease axleboxes (per one of the Mousa kits); later D305 wagons, to Drawing 3208, had double-sided brakes from new and oil axleboxes, I think (I've not looked at these so closely, being after my period of interest). One of the more complicated Midland Diagrams. More on this in a few weeks. 

Edited July 3, 2018 by Compound2632

[Lecorbusier]

This is the Slater's kit. It is for D305 wagons built to Drawing 1143, i.e. those built 1897-1907. They need door stops adding - see my build. Earlier D305 wagons, to Drawing 213, had sloping-ended headstocks to act as door stops and 8A grease axleboxes (per one of the Mousa kits); later D305 wagons, to Drawing 3208, had double-sided brakes from new and oil axleboxes, I think (I've not looked at these so closely, being after my period of interest). One of the more complicated Midland Diagrams. More on this in a few weeks. 

I'm looking for MR and PO stock circa 1902 to run on the Monsaldale line .... so currently reviewing my options. 51L do a couple of good white metal offerings ... Mousa has both etched brass and resin. Still trying to get a handle on what is on offer from Slaters. LRM of course have the 20T and Ballast brake ... from my research to date it would seem that the 20T was used on the Monsal Dale line due to the gradients. Also would be interested in having a go at a tariff van as in this image.

 

[brian777999]

What is a tariff van ?

[Nick Holliday]

What is a tariff van ?

I think the exact idea of what constitutes a tariff van varied between railway companies. I believe the idea was to have a van which would serve a particular line, probably a branch, which could be loaded with small consignments at each station and then travel to a large goods depot, where the contents would be unloaded and redistributed into other vans to complete their journeys to various destinations, the tariff van then working back down the branch delivering items as it went. On many lines, such as the LSWR, and I think the Midland too, road vans were used for this traffic - brake vans with a separate storage area from the guard's accommodation.

Furness Wagons do a 7mm kit, and their instructions, https://pregroupingrailwaysdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/frwc25-mr_tariffvan-instructions.pdf have some useful pictures, although not quite the same van as in the photo. It seems Ambis Engineering have produced etchings which allow the conversion of a suitable Slater's kit into one.

[Lecorbusier]

What is a tariff van ?

also see earlier in this thread page 35

[wagonman]

What is a tariff van ?

 

 

I think the GWR equivalent was called a Station Truck' – but they used a standard goods van.

[Compound2632]

also see earlier in this thread page 35

 

Yes I must get back to that. It stalled while I was waiting for Gibson wheels on their short axles, to use with inside bearings; these arrived but I'd moved on...

 

With Slaters, it seems that patience will be rewarded. Word was that the North Eastern 20 ton hoppers will be the first to be released. Hopefully the Midland wagons won't be too far behind.

[Compound2632]

I see the LNWR Society is sponsoring a modelling competition - open to all comers, not just Society members. I'm having a think about which of my efforts to submit - perhaps the D12 and D13 timber wagons once I get them finished. Not that I have any expectations, just that the Society's enterprise in organising this ought to recognised and the best way of doing so will be to make it a success by having plenty of entries. Paul Gallon's worn and faded LNWR open as running c1928 would beat any of mine any day.

 

This is an example that any other line societies interested in promoting modelling of their line should be looking at closely - and enviously! Obviously it helps to have the support of a modelling magazine, a RTR manufacturer with one or two* relevant locos in their catalogue, and a ToC that has adopted the name of your favoured line. 

 

*One or two, depending on whether one counts the G2 as LNWR or not!

[Worsdell forever]

I see the LNWR Society is sponsoring a modelling competition - open to all comers, not just Society members. I'm having a think about which of my efforts to submit - perhaps the D12 and D13 timber wagons once I get them finished. Not that I have any expectations, just that the Society's enterprise in organising this ought to recognised and the best way of doing so will be to make it a success by having plenty of entries. Paul Gallon's worn and faded LNWR open as running c1928 would beat any of mine any day.

 

This is an example that any other line societies interested in promoting modelling of their line should be looking at closely - and enviously! Obviously it helps to have the support of a modelling magazine, a RTR manufacturer with one or two* relevant locos in their catalogue, and a ToC that has adopted the name of your favoured line. 

 

*One or two, depending on whether one counts the G2 as LNWR or not!

 

There's nowt special about that wagon, just the excellent David Geen kit and a lot of weathering.

[Spitfire2865]

I see the LNWR Society is sponsoring a modelling competition - open to all comers, not just Society members. I'm having a think about which of my efforts to submit - perhaps the D12 and D13 timber wagons once I get them finished. Not that I have any expectations, just that the Society's enterprise in organising this ought to recognised and the best way of doing so will be to make it a success by having plenty of entries. Paul Gallon's worn and faded LNWR open as running c1928 would beat any of mine any day.

 

This is an example that any other line societies interested in promoting modelling of their line should be looking at closely - and enviously! Obviously it helps to have the support of a modelling magazine, a RTR manufacturer with one or two* relevant locos in their catalogue, and a ToC that has adopted the name of your favoured line. 

 

*One or two, depending on whether one counts the G2 as LNWR or not!

Shame for me as Ive gone on a bit of a G3 American jaunt ATM.  I was considering making a G3 D16 at some point after Vol 3 comes out but it doesnt seem Id have the time (or money) even if it came out in the next 6 months. (Ok Ill shut up about Vol 3 now)

[Mikkel]

I see the LNWR Society is sponsoring a modelling competition - open to all comers, not just Society members. I'm having a think about which of my efforts to submit - perhaps the D12 and D13 timber wagons once I get them finished. Not that I have any expectations, just that the Society's enterprise in organising this ought to recognised and the best way of doing so will be to make it a success by having plenty of entries. Paul Gallon's worn and faded LNWR open as running c1928 would beat any of mine any day.

 

This is an example that any other line societies interested in promoting modelling of their line should be looking at closely - and enviously! Obviously it helps to have the support of a modelling magazine, a RTR manufacturer with one or two* relevant locos in their catalogue, and a ToC that has adopted the name of your favoured line. 

 

*One or two, depending on whether one counts the G2 as LNWR or not!

 

I agree Stephen, it's a really nice move by the LNWR society. Some excellent candidates for submission in this and other threads.

 

Incidentally, I came across these sheets/tarps on ebay. Would they be the ones you normally use from wagonsheets.co.uk, Stephen, or is it a different supplier? 

 

Oops forgot the link: https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/davec8994/m.html?item=332727758538&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

Edited July 25, 2018 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

Incidentally, I came across these sheets/tarps on ebay. Would they be the ones you normally use from wagonsheets.co.uk, Stephen, or is it a different supplier? 

 

Oops forgot the link: https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/davec8994/m.html?item=332727758538&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

 

I don't believe they are - certainly some of the designs are different. Thomas Petith's range are at www.wagonsheets.co.uk and his correct email address is wagonsheets@hotmail.com or he can be contacted on 02920844135. He's on RMWeb as 3D Print Tom.

[Compound2632]

EDIT: I've started a new topic for the Dean Goods project. Please post Dean Goods comment there - all comment is very welcome! Any comment on the Oxford AA3 brake van is welcome in this wagon-building topic. 

 

I’m afraid I’ve finally succumbed to the lure of Oxford:

 

 

The idea is that these should be turned into something suitable to top and tail my red wagons, forming a good trains exchanging traffic between the Great Western and the Midland, somewhere in the Black Country, around 1902/3.

 

The AA3 goods brake van wants to end up being not unlike the one seen at the tail of the coal delivery train in my favourite photo from the Huntley & Palmers collection:

 

 

Drawing inspiration from Mikkel’s pioneering work, my plan for the 2301 Class engine is that it should come to resemble No. 2390, as running in original condition with an S2 boiler. This engine was built in August 1890 as part of Lot 82 and retained its S2 boiler until November 1903. In 1902 she was at Wolverhampton, as was her sister No. 2399, seen here in the target condition (photo scanned from Locomotives Illustrated No. 157):

 

 

No. 2399 herself was rebuilt with an S4 boiler in 1899 so was out of the running. The thinking that led to this choice was outlined on Mikkel’s topic a year ago; I acknowledge the information and advice so generously given by Mikkel, Edwardian, Miss Prism, bgman and others who helped guide my choice.

 

I need to re-read all that has been written on these two models and what is wrong with them – though in the case of the 2301 Class model, everything above the footplate on the locomotive bar the front sandboxes will go. My thinking is, if I can make an adequate go of this simple late-19^th-century 0-6-0 goods engine, then I might have the confidence to tackle a Johnson standard goods engine.

 

Neither of these projects should be in “Kitbuilding & Scratchbuilding”! I may have to start a new topic under “Modifying & Detailing RTR stock”, though not until I’m sure it’s going somewhere…

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Mikkel]

Nice to know that there are now two of us undertaking this slightly dubious entreprise, Stephen 

 

I look forward to seeing the S2 boiler version develop, the forward dome is quite graceful I think. I see you have one of the later releases of the Oxford model, which means there is no forward flywheel if I understand correctly? That should save you a bit of carving work when shortening the smokebox.

 

I haven't done much work on mine for months now, except to remove the tender coal fenders. You'll be happy to know that they are fairly easy to cut away. Now trying to work out how to do the coal rails...

[Compound2632]

Nice to know that there are now two of us undertaking this slightly dubious entreprise, Stephen 

 

I look forward to seeing the S2 boiler version develop, the forward dome is quite graceful I think. I see you have one of the later releases of the Oxford model, which means there is no forward flywheel if I understand correctly? That should save you a bit of carving work when shortening the smokebox.

 

I haven't done much work on mine for months now, except to remove the tender coal fenders. You'll be happy to know that they are fairly easy to cut away. Now trying to work out how to do the coal rails...

 

Tender coal rails - half-round wire? But what became of Quarryscapes' 3D print? I have my eye on his smokebox front and parallel chimney.

 

I also have some different ideas on splashers - but a bit more research and a good drawing is needed. I have the Clements book on order.

 

Engine and brake plus postage came to £96 but I can see other items adding up...

[Craigw]

Compound,

 

Sorry to be the bearer of tidings that will cause some adjusting, but the Oxford model is a wide footplate version so is one in the number range 2451 - 2580. These were all built with S4 boilers.

 

Would need to look up RCTS and see if any did sneak a S2 in at some point.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[wagonman]

An early S2/S4 boilered 2301 has featured in my long term plans for... well, a long time. I have a Finney kit salted away for that project though I'll probably have to scratchbuild the Armstrong tender it ran with. Meanwhile a Mainline body on a High Level chassis will have to do.

[Mikkel]

Tender coal rails - half-round wire? But what became of Quarryscapes' 3D print? I have my eye on his smokebox front and parallel chimney.

 

I also have some different ideas on splashers - but a bit more research and a good drawing is needed. I have the Clements book on order.

 

Engine and brake plus postage came to £96 but I can see other items adding up...

 

Half-round wire, I didn't know there was such a thing. Must investigate, thanks. 

 

Quarryscapes' print is here: https://www.shapeways.com/product/M32UVZBVY/gwr-dean-2500g-tender-body-with-coal-rails

 

It looks great and I have used some of his fittings which are good - but I am a little concerned whether I could get the tender sides smooth enough, and there is the cost to think of. As you say it adds up. 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

Compound,

 

Sorry to be the bearer of tidings that will cause some adjusting, but the Oxford model is a wide footplate version so is one in the number range 2451 - 2580. These were all built with S4 boilers.

 

Would need to look up RCTS and see if any did sneak a S2 in at some point.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

 

I was aware of that - the widths across the footplate on the prototype and on both the Oxford and Mainline models was discussed somewhere either on the Oxford Dean Goods topic or on Mikkel's workbench topic - it's on the list of points to revisit. As I recall, the wide footplate engines were 3in wider and both models were of some intermediate width... I don't think if it was established whether there was also a change in tender footplate width. There will inevitably be some compromises - for example, I'm thinking of using a Gibson 517 dome, the S2 dome being narrower than that great lump of a dome on the S4 and B4 boilers, but I don't know if that's quite right. It's micrometer time!

[Mikkel]

Compound,

 

Sorry to be the bearer of tidings that will cause some adjusting, but the Oxford model is a wide footplate version so is one in the number range 2451 - 2580. These were all built with S4 boilers.

 

Would need to look up RCTS and see if any did sneak a S2 in at some point.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

 

Sadly neither the RCTS nor Clements volume are particularly clear on footplate widths, I find (unless I have overlooked it). The best overview of the possible combinations I have found are in the Finney/Brassmasters instructions, which can be downloaded here: http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/gwr_2301_dean_goods_0-6-0.htm

 

I'm not sure Oxford Rail were aware of the footplate issue. Mine measures 30.83 mms across. However I find that the narrower gauge means that the footplate looks wide by default. And the tender sort of clinches it.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

Half-round wire, I didn't know there was such a thing. Must investigate, thanks. 

 

Possibly not - one might have to make one's own; I'm sure I've read of it being done quite recently, possibly in one of the high-end NER brass kit building topics.

 

Half round plastruct or similar does exist but I've to check the sizes.

[Edwardian]

I’m afraid I’ve finally succumbed to the lure of Oxford:

 

GW 2301 Class and AA3 out of the box.JPG

 

The idea is that these should be turned into something suitable to top and tail my red wagons, forming a good trains exchanging traffic between the Great Western and the Midland, somewhere in the Black Country, around 1902/3.

 

The AA3 goods brake van wants to end up being not unlike the one seen at the tail of the coal delivery train in my favourite photo from the Huntley & Palmers collection:

 

H&P loco and wagons brake van crop.jpg

 

Drawing inspiration from Mikkel’s pioneering work, my plan for the 2301 Class engine is that it should come to resemble No. 2390, as running in original condition with an S2 boiler. This engine was built in August 1890 as part of Lot 82 and retained its S2 boiler until November 1903. In 1902 she was at Wolverhampton, as was her sister No. 2399, seen here in the target condition (photo scanned from Locomotives Illustrated No. 157):

 

GW 2301 Class No. 2399 S2 boiler.jpg

 

No. 2399 herself was rebuilt with an S4 boiler in 1899 so was out of the running. The thinking that led to this choice was outlined on Mikkel’s topic a year ago; I acknowledge the information and advice so generously given by Mikkel, Edwardian, Miss Prism, bgman and others who helped guide my choice.

 

I need to re-read all that has been written on these two models and what is wrong with them – though in the case of the 2301 Class model, everything above the footplate on the locomotive bar the front sandboxes will go. My thinking is, if I can make an adequate go of this simple late-19^th-century 0-6-0 goods engine, then I might have the confidence to tackle a Johnson standard goods engine.

 

Neither of these projects should be in “Kitbuilding & Scratchbuilding”! I may have to start a new topic under “Modifying & Detailing RTR stock”, though not until I’m sure it’s going somewhere…

 

 

Stephen,

 

This will be good to see.

 

You are kind to mention me, and I recall the invaluable assistance that you have given me regarding Johnson's 4-4-0s. 

 

A few pointers, if I may so presume, based upon your 1902-3 'red wagon' date.

 

- You want a S2 boiler, c. 1902-3, and you have chosen 2390, which was built with an S2 and had a S4 fitted in November '03, hence it fits.

 

- Lots below 99 were built to the narrower footplate (2390 is from the previous Lot, 92). The footplate width of the Oxford model may not be correct for either version, but will be a far bigger problem for the narrow Lots.  The dimensions of the narrow series are not published anywhere, so far as I can see, so I had to obtain a copy of the Swindon GA, which quotes it.  The problem I suspect you would find is that the footplate valance on the Oxford model, too wide, will prevent you from cutting the footplate back far enough.

 

EDIT: Not only "3in wider" - 5" wider.

 

-  Why not Lot 99 and upward? Here you are aiming for a 7'8" width to the footplate. Fortunately, this is the Great Western we're talking about, so the boiler that a locomotive was built with is nothing to the point!

 

S2 was the standard Swindon boiler 1884-94, so would tend to be fitted new to locos built within that range. No. 2390 was built in 1890,hence came out with a S2

 

S4 was the standard Swindon boiler 1894-1900, so was fitted from new to Dean goods from Lot 99 from 1895

 

None of this matters, because of the GW's evident policy of swapping boilers around until no two locomotives in a standard class looked the same.  Plenty of Deans, Lot 99 and upwards, were retrofitted with S2s.  We just need to find one that fits your date range.

 

Boiler swaps to S2 tend to be a little later in the day than is ideal, but here are a few possibles:

 

2464, to S2 06/03

2472, to S2 03/03

2477, to S2 10/02

2481, to S2 04/03

2482, to S2 04/01

2484, to S2 06/03

2512, to S2 05/03

2520, to S2 12/01

2523, to S2 09/00

2530, to S2 03/03

2540, to S2 08/01

2541, to S2 10/02

2567, to S2 05/02

 

Below is a picture of 2455.  She was built with a S4 boiler in 1895, but here is seen with a S2, which places the picture between October 1904 and July 1908, when she received a B4.  It gives you another example of the condition at which you are aiming.

 

- Dome.  One cannot merely re-site the dome.  The S2 dome is noticeably slimmer than that used with the S4, which latter is the same huge proportions as that on the Dean Singles.  I cannot recall whether I have a drawing of a S2 dome, or, indeed, whether anyone makes one in 4mm.

 

- Splashers.  Huge. Massively over scale. Need replacing.  This affects the cab, of course.  And those damn rivets ....  Will look particularly awful if Indian red is applied. IIRC c.1903-05, a slightly simplified livery adopted with green splashers.  Miss P will probably know this without looking it up, but a point to check.

 

- Wheels - If the Oxford wheels are to scale, they will represent 5'2" diameter.  This dimension was reached by the fitting of progressively thicker tyres and I suspect represents only the post-WW1 condition.  Back in 1902-3, I suspect the wheels were still the original 5'

 

- New chimney and smoke box door you know about - Quarryscapes's Coast Line Models on Shapeways.  It is a pity Alan was never persuaded of the need to produce scale splashers as well.

 

- Boiler barrel.  Your replacement will need to fit the metal lower section on the Oxford model. IIRC, the Oxford boiler may be a tad larger in diameter, it's larger than Mainline's IIRC.  The S2 boilers fitted to the Class were generally of 4'5" diameter.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Edwardian

[Compound2632]

I've started a new topic for the Dean Goods project. Please post Dean Goods comment there - all comment is very welcome! I've started off by responding to Edwardian's observations.

 

Any comment on the Oxford AA3 brake van is welcome in this wagon-building topic.