More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

Did the Midland actually work through to the docks at Poplar or pick up their trains at Temple Mills?

 

There were two generations of 0-6-0Ts with low boiler mountings - Kirtley and Johnson - which were to get under a low bridge on the North Woolwich branch, so they worked to Thames Wharf and Victoria Dock. That suggests they must have worked to Poplar too, or at the very least gone there to shunt?

Edited September 17, 2018 by Compound2632

[Rail-Online]

I accept that it wouldn't be likely to be a standard timetabled working, but apart from my wish to run one through Monsal Dale and so looking for an excuse, the presence of one shunting at Bakewell shows that they did work the line .... so I might be able to cobble together a one off justification.

 

88-DMAG-001914 Bakewell.jpg

I think this Johnson tank was on PW work. The drop doors are down on the opens on the running line side and there appears to be a Ballast Brake or perhaps even a Tarriff Van acting as the 'riding van' - I guess the guys addressing the track in the foreground had arrived it it

 

Tony

[Lecorbusier]

I think this Johnson tank was on PW work. The drop doors are down on the opens on the running line side and there appears to be a Ballast Brake or perhaps even a Tarriff Van acting as the 'riding van' - I guess the guys addressing the track in the foreground had arrived it it

 

Tony

That was my original thought but on closer inspection looking at the two vans to the back of the wagons it was noted that the nearest one has .... strong similarities to a Midland Railway Diag.D412 Prize Cattle Van (pp.396-7 in Lacy/Dow), whilst the nearer van resembles a Midland Railway Diag.D399 Long Horsebox (pp.398 and 400 in Lacy/Dow) .

 

 

The wagons might be as you say PW ballast wagons and connected to the work taking place in the main station, but If so I don't think they are connected with the vans to the rear. If this is the case then my guess would be that they are being shunted into the siding from a larger train as we have no evidence of a Brake anywhere.

 

I don't know anything really about PW trains and how they operate ... but I wondered if there might be a ballast brake with the train and that specific wagons and teams of workmen might be being dropped off along the line with this being the Bakewell drop off? That being the case there might even be a workman's carriage as well.

 

Alternatively the wagons might be nothing to do with the PW gang in the station - that scenario would be the case if the Prize cattle van is attached to the wagons which in the photo it is close enough for this to be the case .... the horsebox appears to spaced off from the cattle van.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Lecorbusier

[Northroader]

I’d be inclined to go along with Yates’ undoubtedly. The GWR did have rather a lot of 060 tankies, and they came in two sizes, with variations on frames, inside, outside, sandwich, and nearly all saddle tanks, panniers were more from 1900s. I gather you could see them in Victorian days taking South Wales coal from Pontypool Road to Swindon via Gloucester, no doubt with a banker up the Golden Valley. The 850 were one of the small size, for lighter work, the larger variety were more likely for this working, and the Walsall enginemens description does fit these very well. Rule 1 can apply, but once you get to Walsall, the empties would fragment off into the wilds of Hednesford and suchlike. When I was a kid you could see 5700 panniers doing similar workings, bringing coal from Wednesbury, probably interchanged from the LMS, to Buildwas power station, central Shropshire.

One other point about the goods train in that picture, quite short, four sheeted opens, four vans, a rather higher proportion of vans than we might expect?

Edited September 17, 2018 by Northroader

[Brassey]

I have read that the Great Western used Buffalo Tanks on coal trains from Pontypool Road to Wolverhampton though I don't recall the source.  They will certainly be running on my layout pulling coal trains as I have two.  IIRC at least one was shedded a Hereford.

 

Edit: to correct spellchecker

Edited September 17, 2018 by Brassey

[Penlan]

It's interesting to compare 1890s and pre or c. 1910 scenes like these, where the vast majority of wagons are Midland, with a 1922 scene - post-pooling, anything goes, though still quite a few "home" Midland wagons.

..... and towards the back (though it does need a touch of faith ) is a late LNWR wagon sheet.

now added to my topic at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/137524-lnwr-wagon-sheets/&do=findComment&comment=3300186

LNWR Wagon sheets are hard to find .......  any scraps are welcome.

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

That was my original thought but on closer inspection looking at the two vans to the back of the wagons it was noted that the nearest one has .... strong similarities to a Midland Railway Diag.D412 Prize Cattle Van (pp.396-7 in Lacy/Dow), whilst the nearer van resembles a Midland Railway Diag.D399 Long Horsebox (pp.398 and 400 in Lacy/Dow) .

 

88-DMAG-001914 Bakewell copy.jpg

 

The wagons might be as you say PW ballast wagons and connected to the work taking place in the main station, but If so I don't think they are connected with the vans to the rear. If this is the case then my guess would be that they are being shunted into the siding from a larger train as we have no evidence of a Brake anywhere.

 

I don't know anything really about PW trains and how they operate ... but I wondered if there might be a ballast brake with the train and that specific wagons and teams of workmen might be being dropped off along the line with this being the Bakewell drop off? That being the case there might even be a workman's carriage as well.

 

Alternatively the wagons might be nothing to do with the PW gang in the station - that scenario would be the case if the Prize cattle van is attached to the wagons which in the photo it is close enough for this to be the case .... the horsebox appears to spaced off from the cattle van.

 

This was the picture Lecorbusier had posted before that I had in mind when I mentioned PW trains but I obviously hadn't looked closely enough. The more I do stare at it, though, the more convinced I become that the engine is not on the same line as the horsebox, prize cattle van and D299s with their doors down but on the line behind. 

 

I suppose it might be working a trip from Rowsley to retrieve the NPCS.

[garethashenden]

Did the Midland actually work through to the docks at Poplar or pick up their trains at Temple Mills?

Poplar Docks were the North London’s Docks and they didn’t let anyone else work trains over their lines, aside from a couple of LNWR passenger trains. The Midland had a goods warehouse at Poplar (as did several other major railways) but the trains were worked by the NLR. The GNR had a shunting engine at the docks, I don’t know if the Midland did as well or if they did the shunting by horse.

[PenrithBeacon]

https://collection.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects/co205761/battery-locomotive-north-staffordshire-railway-electric-locomotive. Mostly abut the NSR battery loco but it does mention the Midland one at Poplar Docks.

 

Also http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/63906-mrlmsbr-0-4-0-bel-battery-electric-loco-no1/

Edited September 17, 2018 by PenrithBeacon

[Compound2632]

https://collection.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects/co205761/battery-locomotive-north-staffordshire-railway-electric-locomotive. Mostly abut the NSR battery loco but it does mention the Midland one at Poplar Docks.

 

Also http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/63906-mrlmsbr-0-4-0-bel-battery-electric-loco-no1/

 

Of course! Presumably maintained on site, whereas a steam engine would need to be exchanged with Cricklewood shed once a week. However, I suspect Gareth's right and the BEL did replace (or supplement) horse shunting.

[Lecorbusier]

 I suppose it might be working a trip from Rowsley to retrieve the NPCS.

NPCS? ..... Non Passenger Coaching Stock  ?

Edited September 17, 2018 by Lecorbusier

[Compound2632]

NPCS? ..... Non Passenger Coaching Stock  ?

 

National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Carriages.

[Penlan]

The arrangement of company property at Poplar, if this helps,  was somewhat like this:

 

 

Copied from the excellent book 'North London Railway, A Pictorial Record', and published by the NRM - my copy is priced at £3.50, it was excellent value at the time, but I expect it cost a bit more now.

I'm sure Compound2632 will be cheering, as there's a photo on page 48 of the docks, and the only bl**dy wagon that can be attributed to a company, is MR, and I bet, to add insult to injury, it's a D229..    
.... and they don't even have a stake there.......



 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

That's Poplar from a North London perspective! The RCH plan reveals more:

 

 

The Midland depots are accessed off the Great Eastern line, so I presume Midland goods trains could work through via the Tottenham & Hampstead and Tottenham & Forest Gate lines - though rather a long way round. I'll confess to being pretty confused by the railway geography out east.

 

The Midland had some rather substantial warehouses there alongside its own Poplar Dock, separate from the NLR's Poplar Docks.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[PenrithBeacon]

 

This is from a NLS map  https://maps.nls.uk/view/103313324 dated 1914

 

Perhaps a better view

 

A view of Poplar 1914

 

West India Docks Station incl MR Goods

 

This is the eastern part of the above

Edited September 17, 2018 by PenrithBeacon

[Compound2632]

There you go - a stonking great Midland goods station right on the Commercial Road (top right corner of PenrithBeacon's extract) and another on Royal Mint Street off the approaches to Fenchurch Street. And you were surprised to see a D299 hereabouts?

 

The sadly moribund Basilica Fields website is a mine of information on this subject.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Compound2632

[Western Star]

The sadly moribund Basilica Fields website is a mine of information on this subject.

I agree with you that BF is a wonderful resource... and with that I declare an interest being one of the authors. There are two good reasons why BF has been quiet for a serious length of time - one is that Adrian has not been in the best of health and two is that the content of BF as is has got close to the Wordpress size limit.

 

I have maintained contact with Adrian for most of his quiet period and I am expecting to have lunch with him next week during which there are going to be discussions about how to proceed with building a number of the S&T Works resin bodies for GNR open wagons - destined for BF and for my GW&GC Jt layout.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Western Star

[jwealleans]

Please pass on my best wishes to Adrian.  It's always a joy and an inspiration to see a new piece of his work.

[Edwardian]

I agree with you that BF is a wonderful resource... and with that I declare an interest being one of the authors. There are two good reasons why BF has been quiet for a serious length of time - one is that Adrian has not been in the best of health and two is that the content of BF as is has got close to the Wordpress size limit.

 

I have maintained contact with Adrian for most of his quiet period and I am expecting to have lunch with him next week during which there are going to be discussions about how to proceed with building a number of the S&T Works resin bodies for GNR open wagons - destined for BF and for my GW&GC Jt layout.

 

BF has been a vital source of information for me on GE goods stock.  The quality of the information there is first rate. 

[Guy Rixon]

Perhaps an external archive of Basilica Fields needs to be organized so that Adrian can have space for new essays?

 

Concerning shunting engines at Poplar, bear in mind that steam locomotives were banned from many areas of the London Docks for a long time, due to fire risk. The London and Blackwall Railway - the origin of the GER line through Polar - was originally cable-hauled to avoid this risk.

[billbedford]

 

The Midland depots are accessed off the Great Eastern line, so I presume Midland goods trains could work through via the Tottenham & Hampstead and Tottenham & Forest Gate lines - though rather a long way round. I'll confess to being pretty confused by the railway geography out east.

 

 

Yes, but the photo shows the train at Lea Bridge on the GER line between Temple Mills and South Tottenham. So to get to Temple Mill it would have had to come from around the West India Docks along the line from North Woolwich. So the question is; did the Midland have running rights from the WIDs to South Tottenham or was Temple Mills an exchange yard.

[PenrithBeacon]

Yes, but the photo shows the train at Lea Bridge on the GER line between Temple Mills and South Tottenham. So to get to Temple Mill it would have had to come from around the West India Docks along the line from North Woolwich. So the question is; did the Midland have running rights from the WIDs to South Tottenham or was Temple Mills an exchange yard.

It is possible the caption's wrong.

[Buhar]

One of the restrictions on using tank locos on goods workings of any length was the risk of getting put out of the way in a siding or loop and then having to maintain steam over an unknown length of time. This was probably more of a risk when exercising running rights.

 

I now think that picture is posed (the wagons have too much of a uniformity of type and shade, plus I think the location is iffy.

[Lecorbusier]

I now think that picture is posed (the wagons have too much of a uniformity of type and shade, plus I think the location is iffy.

 Interesting. Were companies in the habit of posing goods workings out on the main line?

Edited September 18, 2018 by Lecorbusier

[PenrithBeacon]

I have an interesting question about the following photo.

 

DSC_0204.jpg

 

Others have raised concerns about the uniformity of the train? My shout was that it was a load of empty's being returned to a single source given the relatively short length of the train. The date I think is relatively early as the loco is still sporting the johnson smoke box door and handrail profile - potentially pre war. The wagons given their height in relation to the cab appear to be D299s? Given the vast numbers produced and the greater uniformity of stock at this time is the photo so very odd? Would such a train have been the subject of a staged photo?

 

Interested if anyone has any thoughts.

Perhaps we can start a discussion about the photo with a view to trying to track down its location.

 

The lineside fencing is distinctive and the rail chairs appear to be two bolt. The lineside telegraph poles seem to be very simple for a four track railway. Perhaps the line is being upgraded.

 

Also I too am coming to the conclusion that the picture is posed. The lighting conditions seem to be pretty murky so the shutter speed on the camera would be very low, too low for a sharpish picture of the subject. The photo isn't very sharp (not just the engine) but this is likely to be a function of a non-to-good lens being used with a wide aperture. Would the GER permit an MR train being stopped for a photo on a four track line? Unlikely.

 

Other thoughts welcome