More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[41516]

34 minutes ago, wagonman said:

 

Wasn't there one in the undercroft of St Pancras station – the bit where you wait for your Eurostar. I seem to remember the support pillars were spaced at multiples of a Burton beer barrel. Or this another urban myth?

 

No myth -"During the construction of St Pancras Station in London between 1865 and 1868 special arrangements were made by the architects to cater for ale traffic"   'The Greatest Brewery in the World' A History of Bass, Radcliff and Gretton, C.C Owen,  pg 66 , with citations to  The Midland Railway; its rise and progress (1878) F.S Williams, also St Pancras Station (1968) J.Simmons.

 

However, as discussed elsewhere, by the 1870s, bottled rather than cask beers were well in fashion, and a large part of the loads to London and other major cities would be for beers to be bottled, rather than casks to licenced premises.  This also had knock-on consequences at St Pancras  "The change from draught to bottled beers allowed the firm to reduce its cellerage at St Pancras by 1,808 sq yards in 1894, thereby reducing the charge for rent"  Ibid pg 123

 

29 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

does anyone know how casks would be loaded from ground level into wagons without a crane.

 

You don't load from ground level! You build banks at wagon height and just roll them in - EDIT, if this helps with the visualisation. Note the wooden battons used to help guide the casks at the side of the pyramid.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by 41516

[Penlan]

.... and all I asked was "Is that a large barrel..." 🤓

[jamie92208]

2 minutes ago, 41516 said:

 

No myth -"During the construction of St Pancras Station in London between 1865 and 1868 special arrangements were made by the architects to cater for ale traffic"   'The Greatest Brewery in the World' A History of Bass, Radcliff and Gretton, C.C Owen,  pg 66 , with citations to  The Midland Railway; its rise and progress (1878) F.S Williams, also St Pancras Station (1968) J.Simmons.

 

However, as discussed elsewhere, by the 1870s, bottled rather than cask beers were well in fashion, and a large part of the loads to London and other major cities would be for beers to be bottled, rather than casks to licenced premises.  This also had knock-on consequences at St Pancras  "The change from draught to bottled beers allowed the firm to reduce its cellerage at St Pancras by 1,808 sq yards in 1894, thereby reducing the charge for rent"  Ibid pg 123

 

 

You don't load from ground level! You build banks at wagon height and just roll them in.

 

There was no loading bank at Lancaster.  The yard was right next to the siding and had to be loaded from ground level unfortunately.  They must have done OK as Yates' had the contract to supply all the navvy camps on the Settle and Cariisle line presumably by rail to such places as Settle, Ingleton, Tebay and Penrith, then road transport.  They may have been able to load some directly from drays into wagons but there would have been some from ground level.

 

As to the incoming van traffic that was confirmed to me by two sources who worked at Woodlesford Station and Bentley's brewery that had sidings.  I'd never considered the incoming goods for the tied houses.

 

Jamie

[Penlan]

Although I'm trying to reduce the numbers of wagons/vans I have - currently about 125 over and above what I can get on the layout, but like the recent 3D printed LNWR Fish Vans, I would be interested in a couple of LNWR Beer Vans, should somebody be producing some before I go blind 😎
I have somewhere in all the varied paperwork I've accumulated over the last 50 years, that there was ex. Burton Ale traffic down to Swansea via the LNWR Central Wales Line.

[Compound2632]

All sorts of awkward things had to be loaded from ground level, sometimes requiring innovative solutions:

 

 

[DY 10953 / MRSC 88-2014-0062, embedded link to catalogue image.]

 

Or at other times just a dodgy wooden ramp. This takes us back to the question of how those Daimler chassis were loaded onto the low side wagons... 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Compound2632

[kitpw]

There's also the vinegar and "British Wine" trade - Hill Evans at Worcester (who had their own rail connections to the works) and others.  I assume that much of it was bottled but did some go in barrels, for instance for pickling?

 

Kit PW

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, kitpw said:

There's also the vinegar and "British Wine" trade - Hill Evans at Worcester (who had their own rail connections to the works) and others.  I assume that much of it was bottled but did some go in barrels, for instance for pickling?

 

@Mikkel introduced me to this photo some time ago, in the context of Great Western 2-plank wagons:

 

 

The Great Filling Hall, Hill Evans & Co.'s Vinegar Works, Worcester. "Largest in world. Vats were 39 ft diameter by 39 ft high." [Changing Face of Worcester website, embedded link.]

 

Looking at that wagon again, I think it's got self-contained buffers (note large diameter housing and shank) suggesting it's a conversion from the broad gauge. (May have said that before...)

Edited May 4, 2022 by Compound2632

[Penlan]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The Great Filling Hall, Hill Evans & Co.'s Vinegar Works, Worcester. "Largest in world. Vats were 39 ft diameter by 39 ft high." [Changing Face of Worcester website, embedded link.]

The barrels in the foreground look like some of the offerings for 4mm scale casks - heavy bands

Edited May 4, 2022 by Penlan

[41516]

35 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

They may have been able to load some directly from drays into wagons but there would have been some from ground level.

 

From "Bass The Story of the World's most Famous Ale" 1920 (and reprints, pg17)

 

 

7 minutes ago, Penlan said:

some of the offerings for 4mm scale casks - heavy bands

 

A lot like the small EFE Base Toys ones I think.   Interesting how casks may not suit one prototype but would another.

Edited May 4, 2022 by 41516

[Penlan]

Oh that poor horse...... 🥴

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Penlan said:

The barrels in the foreground look like some of the offerings for 4mm scale casks - heavy bands

 

It looks to me as if they've been fitted with extra hoops - maybe of wood or even rope? - over the iron bilge hoops, as an aid to rolling in a straight line.

[Western Star]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The largest size of Burton cask, the butt, was 4' 4" long by 2' 9" diameter at the waist, held 108 gal, and had a weight when full of 1314 lb - 11 cwt 3 qtr in wagon-speak. A tun, with twice the capacity, would have a weight when full of twice that - roughly 1 ton, unsurprisingly - but linear dimensions only 26% greater. That would certainly be well within the capacity of a 6 ton wagon.
 

So a "tun" is not a Burton cask?  What is special about "Burton casks"?

 

 

Would a tun be carried in an open wagon?

 

regards, Graham

[Western Star]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Pharaoh had nothing to compare with such a monumental landscape!

Stephen,

I am hoping that you can describe how the top row of barrels were added to the monument.

regards, Graham

[magmouse]

44 minutes ago, Western Star said:

I am hoping that you can describe how the top row of barrels were added to the monument.

 

Carefully!

 

[I'll get my coat...]

[41516]

2 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

I presume the season's malt was in those days governed by the barley harvest - out of curiosity how long would the brewing season be?  And from a railway traffic point of view, did this seasonality have an impact on when beer was sent out from the breweries? (Possibly not, if the ale stores and other storage methods were at the brewery..)

 

"Although malting and brewing  continued  to be concentrated  within the October to  April season, there was a gradual increase in  the amount of brewing done between May and September" 'The Greatest Brewery in the World' pg71, referring to the situation in the 1880s.   The book suggests Bass seems to have mostly brewed its Pale Ale Jan/Feb/March and effectively given up through the summer, when temperatures went too high and the outputs became poor.

 

In terms of seasonality, this links back to my earlier comments and quotes regarding storage - Brewery ale stores would be filled first, then using space in the maltings as the brewing season closed over the summer and finally space on ale banks could then be used during the cooler months at the end of the year if required.

 

 

[kitpw]

A little research shows that "Henry James Sarson never made malt vinegar. He bought in substantial quantities of malt vinegar from Hill Evans & Co of Worcester, which he sold under the Sarson name. Sarsons began making their own malt vinegar in 1894".  So in the late C19th, barrels from Hill Evans were certainly going down the "Vinegar branch" en route to Catherine Street, London for sale under Sarson's name.  The size of the (now listed) Filling Hall and number of barrels present in the photo posted by Mikkel and repeated here (I missed it so thanks @Compound2632 for re-post) suggests significant distribution in barrels and, as far as I can see, Hill Evans had no PO wagons so would be using GWR wagons as per the photo.  In fact, searching through the PO names on https://lightmoor.co.uk/BDLpdf_files/Private_Owner_Wagons_Index.pdf I only found one reference to "vinegar". 

Edited May 4, 2022 by kitpw

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Western Star said:

So a "tun" is not a Burton cask?  What is special about "Burton casks"?

 

Would a tun be carried in an open wagon?

 

Sorry, I was being a bit off-hand with my source, which is a "diagram" of cask sizes used by Bass, Ratcliffe & Gretton Ltd. (and hence presumed to date from before that firm's 1927 merger with Worthingon) which I had from the National Brewery Centre - as discussed in a post about a year ago:

  The largest size on that diagram is the butt. Other Burton brewers may have used other sizes, I suppose.

 

1 hour ago, Western Star said:

I am hoping that you can describe how the top row of barrels were added to the monument.

 

For all we know, they may have pushed the barrels in at the bottom of the pyramid, forcing the pile upwards.

 

7 minutes ago, kitpw said:

A little research shows that "Henry James Sarson never made malt vinegar. He bought in substantial quantities of malt vinegar from Hill Evans & Co of Worcester, which he sold under the Sarson name. Sarsons began making their own malt vinegar in 1894".  So in the late C19th, barrels from Hill Evans were certainly going down the "Vinegar branch" en route to Catherine Street, London for sale under Sarson's name.  The size of the (now listed) Filling Hall and number of barrels present in the photo posted by Mikkel and repeated here (I missed it so thanks @Compound2632 for re-post) suggests significant distribution in barrels and, as far as I can see, Hill Eans had no PO wagons so would be using GWR wagons as per the photo.  In fact, searching through the PO names on https://lightmoor.co.uk/BDLpdf_files/Private_Owner_Wagons_Index.pdf I only found one reference to "vinegar". 

 

I think one would expect merchandise to be shipped in railway company wagons. A vinegar manufacturer running coal wagons is undoubtedly buying in coal for his manufacturing process.

[41516]

22 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Bass, Ratcliffe & Gretton Ltd. (and hence presumed to date from before that firm's 1927 merger with Worthingon)

 

The Bass, Ratcliff & Gretton name remained intact from 1835, converting to a limited company in 1880 until the July 1961 merger with Mitchells & Butlers, becoming Bass, Mitchells & Butlers Ltd. 

 

The merger with Worthingtons did nothing to change the status quo ("The biggest non-event in brewing history"), the two remaining almost entirely separate entitities into the 1960s, despite sharing many members between the two boards!

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by 41516

[WFPettigrew]

15 hours ago, 41516 said:

 

"Although malting and brewing  continued  to be concentrated  within the October to  April season, there was a gradual increase in  the amount of brewing done between May and September" 'The Greatest Brewery in the World' pg71, referring to the situation in the 1880s.   The book suggests Bass seems to have mostly brewed its Pale Ale Jan/Feb/March and effectively given up through the summer, when temperatures went too high and the outputs became poor.

 

In terms of seasonality, this links back to my earlier comments and quotes regarding storage - Brewery ale stores would be filled first, then using space in the maltings as the brewing season closed over the summer and finally space on ale banks could then be used during the cooler months at the end of the year if required.

 

 

Thank you.  Curiosity sated about the process, and on a more practical level, no worries about a D299 turning up loaded with Burton beer any month of the year thanks to the storage methods, then.. 

[41516]

I feel my next line of investigation may need to be into the Bass agency offices. Were orders managed and dispatched direct from Burton through the agencies, or did agencies manage local storing arrangements through a 'hub and spoke' model? Or both depending on agency size and proximity to the Bass heartland?

 

It seems a vast amount was sent for bottling in major regional centres, which then developed large Ale stores (London, Newcastle, Manchester, etc) but what about the others?  As with all things, I suspect the answer will be 'it depends' - particular with location and time period but some of the annual turnover figures for the agency offices may well provide a lead.

 

"A Visit to Bass' Brewery Burton-on-Trent" 1902 (Bass Museum 1977 reprint)

 

I do feel like something of a Bass propagandist - As the victors write the history and Bass was very much the victor in Burton (well, until the Monopolies and Mergers Commission), most of my source material is heavily Bass-centric.  Sorry for anyone wanting to know about Salt's or Eadie's.

 

 

EDIT. To bring things back to another running element of the thread, never mind tracking large items like whole railway wagons, how about working in Bass' cask office: "in which there are thirty-five clerks employed, whose duty it is to check the numbers of casks going out and coming in, and this is done so systematically, that if a cask be away longer than is necessary, it can be traced immediately" Bass & Co., Limited as described in Noted Breweries of Great Britain & Ireland A. Barnard 1889 (1977 reprint) pg 65

 

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by 41516

[Asterix2012]

2 hours ago, 41516 said:

I feel my next line of investigation may need to be into the Bass agency offices. Were orders managed and dispatched direct from Burton through the agencies, or did agencies manage local storing arrangements through a 'hub and spoke' model? Or both depending on agency size and proximity to the Bass heartland?

 

It seems a vast amount was sent for bottling in major regional centres, which then developed large Ale stores (London, Newcastle, Manchester, etc) but what about the others?  As with all things, I suspect the answer will be 'it depends' - particular with location and time period but some of the annual turnover figures for the agency offices may well provide a lead.

 

"A Visit to Bass' Brewery Burton-on-Trent" 1902 (Bass Museum 1977 reprint)

 

I do feel like something of a Bass propagandist - As the victors write the history and Bass was very much the victor in Burton (well, until the Monopolies and Mergers Commission), most of my source material is heavily Bass-centric.  Sorry for anyone wanting to know about Salt's or Eadie's.

 

 

EDIT. To bring things back to another running element of the thread, never mind tracking large items like whole railway wagons, how about working in Bass' cask office: "in which there are thirty-five clerks employed, whose duty it is to check the numbers of casks going out and coming in, and this is done so systematically, that if a cask be away longer than is necessary, it can be traced immediately" Bass & Co., Limited as described in Noted Breweries of Great Britain & Ireland A. Barnard 1889 (1977 reprint) pg 65

 

 

Dundee had an independent brewery operating from the New Pleasance brewery until the 1970’s which could trace its history back to around 1530

 

They were bought over by Dryburgh’s in the seventies and closed down shortly after 

[John-Miles]

Sorry to break into this discussion on beer and vinegar but a while ago there were several posts on the life of railway wagons. I know I should have responded earlier but I only log into RMWeb occasionally. 

 

There is an Institution of Mechanical Engineers paper on South Wales Mineral Wagons by an Alfred Slater of Gloucester. Sorry I don't have a full reference but I would guess the date is sometime in the 1880s. In the discussion of the paper, one T.G. Clayton (Midland C&W Superintendent) was quoted as saying "With regard to the lifetime of wagons, that was a point which he believed had been pretty well ascertained within the last 10 years. Their lifetime was not so long as it had once been supposed. It had been imagined they would last 20 years; but it had been found that they did not last so long". He then goes on to say the advent of spring buffers has increased the expected life of wagons.

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, John-Miles said:

There is an Institution of Mechanical Engineers paper on South Wales Mineral Wagons by an Alfred Slater of Gloucester. Sorry I don't have a full reference but I would guess the date is sometime in the 1880s. In the discussion of the paper, one T.G. Clayton (Midland C&W Superintendent) was quoted as saying "With regard to the lifetime of wagons, that was a point which he believed had been pretty well ascertained within the last 10 years. Their lifetime was not so long as it had once been supposed. It had been imagined they would last 20 years; but it had been found that they did not last so long". He then goes on to say the advent of spring buffers has increased the expected life of wagons.

 

That's of a piece with an extract that @Mikkel posted elsewhere quite recently - since it'll have gone the way of all attachments I hope he can be persuaded to post it again here. 

[phil_sutters]

On 04/05/2022 at 18:13, kitpw said:

A little research shows that "Henry James Sarson never made malt vinegar. He bought in substantial quantities of malt vinegar from Hill Evans & Co of Worcester, which he sold under the Sarson name. Sarsons began making their own malt vinegar in 1894".  So in the late C19th, barrels from Hill Evans were certainly going down the "Vinegar branch" en route to Catherine Street, London for sale under Sarson's name.  

Sarson's factory was in Bermondsey, off Tower Bridge Road. When I first worked in Southwark, our in-service training office was in Tooley Street, the other side of the railway. The pungent smell of the vinegar often wafted across if the wind was in the right direction. The smells as one walked down from London Bridge station were at that time mainly quite fragrant - coffee from an importer and roaster and spices from import warehouses and packaging plants -  until you got to Tower Bridge Road when the vinegar smell could catch the back of your throat.

In Victorian times it was one of the smelliest places in a generally rather smelly city. If you look at a map of the area there were loads of tanneries, for which urine  was a required chemical agent. These were associated with currieries where the tanned hides were further processed or 'cured'. At the centre of this was the London Leather, Hide and Wool Exchange near to Guys Hospital

Some of the leathers were from whales' and seals' skins, so another source of pungent odours was the Alaska Building.

There were also a number wool warehouses that had their own distinctive odours.

It had its own large and small breweries and indeed the Hop Exchange, close to London Bridge Station, served most of the country, with supplies coming in mainly from Kent and Sussex, but from as far afield as Herefordshire.

There was at least one glue and size factory, which would have had some very unpleasant raw materials I guess. Who knows what the 'black lead and emery works' smelt like.

All this is in addition to poor drains, horse and other animal dung in the streets, smoke from every building whether domestic or commercial etc. etc..

Now we have moving model trains, with sounds and smoke, perhaps we need to add smells as well to be really authentic.

This is all one can now see of the Sarsons building from Tower Bridge Road. When I first knew it in the late 60s there were still large vats visible and they could still give off a tangy pong years after production finished there.

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by phil_sutters

[kitpw]

57 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

The pungent smell of the vinegar often wafted across if the wind was in the right direction

London has changed a great deal in the last 50 years.  In the late '60s, I remember the smell of spices such as pepper, cinnamon, cardomom and nutmeg coming from the spice mills on Wapping High Street and, later, when visiting a block of buildings adjacent to Cloak Lane in the City, the rather less pleasant smell of bailed furs which seem to cling to you for hours after a visit to one of the warehouses.  The name Cloak Lane derives from the Latin "cloaca",  a drain, which tells you something about the smells of London (also Maiden Lane - from "midden"). But on a steam railway theme, I remember, as much by the smell as the sights, a school visit to the Nine Elms Locomotive works - rides on the footpate and all - I guess about 1960 or '61, not that long before it closed. It must have been an enlightened school providing a proper education.

 

I have family connections to the Hills of Hill Evans but never thought to research the company although I had come across the "Vinegar Branch".  It was only the discussion about beer-by-rail that caused me to wonder about carriage of vinegar.

 

It's a handsome little building you attached above.  I particularly like the corbelling for the projected bay, the box sash window on the left with three sets of sliding sashes and the gauged and inset arches to the ground floor windows.  The street door is an unusual arragement too: not an obvious solution in designing an entrance door.  Some of that detailing might just turn up in model form in due course.

 

Kit PW

Edited May 5, 2022 by kitpw