More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Regularity]

6 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

So I was right that it's a R, just the wrong type of R!

One of these classes was fitted with external condensing pipes, so it pays to know your Rs from your elbows.

[billbedford]

On 01/04/2022 at 16:25, Compound2632 said:

 How do they get on and off the platform, which rotates with the tippler, as is clear from the one in the background. 

 

There's a ladder on the righthand side of each of the platforms. 

[Schooner]

Dear Appreciators,

 

Noob question inbound re transfers for MR goods stock. Options look to be HMRS:

 

or Fox:

 

Neither seems ideal for someone looking for dress up a small fleet of 10ish wagons. Am I missing something, or has everyone been painting builders plates by hand?!

 

Cheers,

 

Schooner

 

ps. Now I can no longer check the images in this thread, painting tips also welcomed  

[Steamport Southport]

Don't Slaters provide them in the kits anymore? I haven't bought any of the new issued kits yet, but there used to be a small sheet of them.

 

Like here.

 

https://www.jwmodelrailways.com/product-page/slaters-wagon-kit-4027-lms-midland-railway-8t-5-plank-mineral-wagon

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, Regularity said:

One of these classes was fitted with external condensing pipes, so it pays to know your Rs from your elbows.

 

At least they replaced them with proper engines.

 

The 0-4-4Ts with Ivatts and the 0-6-0Ts with these....

 

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p416923824/e9f77b190

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p416923824/ea02e7dfd

 

 

🤣

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Schooner said:

Noob question inbound re transfers for MR goods stock. Options look to be HMRS:

 

or Fox:

 

Fox do many excellent transfers but I'm afraid I long ago took one look at their MR lettering and concluded that their designer had not looked at the prototype:

 

 

[Embedded link to NRM DY 2494.] 

 

The HMRS transfers are much better though I think the leg of the van-size R is wrong; that's better on the Slaters sheet which, as Jason says, comes with their kits. Both are based on artwork by Peter Chatham, also reproduced in Midland Wagons. The Slaters sheet has the advantage that it also includes builder's plates, numberplates, an pre-made tare weights, though I re-arrange those as there are not enough low values for opens. 

 

These were originally supplied as Methfix and, by the time I started building Slaters kits c. 1980, Pressfix, and with the re-issued kits are currently waterslide. I don't think the registration of the builder's plates is quite as good on the waterslide sheets but that's a tiny issue, they're so small. Slaters used, many years ago, to sell the transfer sheets separately  but I can't find them listed now; one could enquire. I have bought off Ebay but the condition of old Pressfix sheets can be rather variable - some won't adhere at all.

 

For your 1880s period, @Schooner, the good news is that you only need the larger MR lettering for high-side opens and the brake van number panels; apart from that other wagons only had the number and builder's plates and tare weight. 

 

I wonder if you could advertise for a L&Y modeller who has spare Midland sections of the HMRS sheet?

[airnimal]

I have found some old Pressfix tranfers that didn't work very well could be used like Methfix ones.

Perhaps it's worth a try rather than throw them away.

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, airnimal said:

I have found some old Pressfix tranfers that didn't work very well could be used like Methfix ones.

 

Some do, some don't, in my experience. If one has them, it's worth a shot. Anyway:

  

10 minutes ago, airnimal said:

throw them away.

 

railway modeller - throw away? Does not compute.

[kitpw]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

[Embedded link to NRM DY 2494.] 

I don't know if it's my eyes or my glasses or the signwriter but, in the photo referenced above, the right hand leg of the "M" of MR appears not to be parallel to the wagon strapping to its right and the shape of the inverted triangle of the M on the right side is different to what should be the same shape on the left side of the M.  Apart from that potentially erroneous observation, it did remind me that lettershapes don't necessarily "scale", so when adapting a lettershape  which is normally painted on a 12" to the foot wagon to fix to its 4mm to the foot model cousin, the proportions of the letters (and spaces between and around letters) cannot necessarily just be scaled down to fit - some adjustment may be necessary for the original shapes to read as being the same - whether one or two MRs (or SRs, GWRs etc) should have a slightly drunken appearance is a matter for the modeller/signwriter.  There is a useful comment on scaling typographic logos here: https://www.fonts.com/content/learning/fyti/using-type-tools/scaling-logos. 

 

Kit PW

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, kitpw said:

I don't know if it's my eyes or my glasses or the signwriter but, in the photo referenced above, the right hand leg of the "M" of MR appears not to be parallel to the wagon strapping to its right and the shape of the inverted triangle of the M on the right side is different to what should be the same shape on the left side of the M. 

 

Here's the other side of the same wagon on the same day (not often you get that, certainly not in 1903!):

 

 

[Embedded link to NRM DY 2493.] Done earlier in the shift?

 

19 minutes ago, kitpw said:

it did remind me that lettershapes don't necessarily "scale", so when adapting a lettershape  which is normally painted on a 12" to the foot wagon to fix to its 4mm to the foot model cousin, the proportions of the letters (and spaces between and around letters) cannot necessarily just be scaled down to fit - some adjustment may be necessary for the original shapes to read as being the same

 

But I don't think one can excuse Fox's MRs by that line of argument. 

[Penlan]

When I were a lad? I was articled to an Architects office and it seemed to me the first year plus was spent copying out / writing the Roman alphabet.  If nothing else I learnt about the proportions of letters, spaces (air) between them etc.,   In an architectural sense, things like fenestration (proportions of say openings in a wall to the material around them), I had to learn too, so a lot of buildings annoy me these days when they look out of order.
Finally, before they actually started to pay me, I was encouraged to do water coloured presentations for new builds etc., and there I became aware of perceived proportions, as opposed to actual (scaled down) proportions.
But that was 60 years ago, I've drifted a bit since then 🤔

[Compound2632]

By the way, note how faded the lettering is on wagon No. 88181 and even more so on the wagon in the left background. I suspect the really important things - the tare weight and the numberplate, which number-takers and yard staff filling out wagon labels etc. had to be able to read - got freshened up more frequently than the MR lettering.

[kitpw]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

But I don't think one can excuse Fox's MRs by that line of argument. 

Agreed! Although I haven't studied those or other Midland transfers with any great focus - it was more of a general remark about the potential difficuties of scaling which can produce unintended effects in how things look and Penlan's comment...

 

1 hour ago, Penlan said:

perceived proportions, as opposed to actual (scaled down) proportions

is to the point.

 

Kit PW

[Compound2632]

Nevertheless I do think that the dimensions of the prototype have to be the best starting point!

[WFPettigrew]

On 04/04/2022 at 05:23, Compound2632 said:

I wonder if you could advertise for a L&Y modeller who has spare Midland sections of the HMRS sheet?

 

I have a couple of packs of this HMRS transfer sheet (as methfix) and would be very happy to trade MR lettering (or indeed LYR or any of the others) in return for the Furness Railway, M&C and C&W lot at the top right... 

 

EDIT - I HAVE NOW ARRANGED SWAPS OF BOTH PACKS.  BUT... EVEN WITH THESE I IWLL BE BUYING MORE SHEETS AT SOME POINT AND ALWAYS HAPPY TO DO FURTHER SWAPS IN THE FUTURE... 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

Edited April 5, 2022 by WFPettigrew
Updated info

[Compound2632]

12 hours ago, billbedford said:

There's a ladder on the righthand side of each of the platforms. 

 

I see it now!

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, Schooner said:

Now I can no longer check the images in this thread, painting tips also welcomed  

 

Not many pages back:

 

 

[wagonbasher]

A thought, an observation for discussion by the thread I know will know (no pressure)  Sorry if this has been covered here before, so much has.

 

Last week though my work in Tarmac I visited Gaston docks on the Mersey.  I was there because that is where a lot of aggregates are imported into the uk.  Some are sands dredged from the Mersey and others come from further afield like Spain etc.

 

There was no apparent export traffic anymore.  Powerful  mobile grabs  for unload ships and load lorries.  You couldn’t miss the back drop of the dock itself and the massive Victorian red sandstone retaining walls and this demanded that once home I found out what it was originally all for.  Coal, I know you know.  Loading from Capstan, straight into the hold emptying through end doors.

 

of course the wagon would need to be presented the right way for emptying as the doors are only at one end and elsewhere in the process they would be turned if necessary. Once empty and hauled back up they were pushed down the line of empty wagons and a new full wagon would move up to the capstan.  The empty wagons would all have their doors at the same end.

 

My thought, my observation?

 

there must have been train loads of wagons leaving the docks with the end doors all in the same orientation. In fact if they were on a shuttle, colliery to dock, back to colliery and so on, there would be no reason to change the orientation at the colliery.

 

So is it fair to say, that coal wagons often ran in trains of wagons exhibiting the same orientation, doors all at one end.?

 

Andy

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, wagonbasher said:

So is it fair to say, that coal wagons often ran in trains of wagons exhibiting the same orientation, doors all at one end.?

 

Anecdotally, yes, to my frustration! The best photo I've yet found for Gloucester wagon interiors was taken at Ynysygeinon sidings in the Swansea Vale line. Annoyingly, the wagons are all oriented the same way, so the inside end one sees is the door end, whereas it's the construction of the fixed end I want to know about!

[Schooner]

@Compound2632 Thank you for another swift, detailed and helpful response. A good Slater's-based solution has now been found, courtesy of kind RMWebbers.

 

@WFPettigrew A swap would make a lot of sense - I'll remember you if I ever get the HMRS set.

 

Cheers all!

 

[Compound2632]

Photos are starting to reappear - I pasted the OP photo back in myself but others are popping up in random blocks.

[Asterix2012]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Photos are starting to reappear - I pasted the OP photo back in myself but others are popping up in random blocks.

That’s good news

[Compound2632]

26 minutes ago, Asterix2012 said:

That’s good news

 

They've gone again but will reappear, we are assured. I'd started putting in a few from the last few months, which have also gone but I'm trusting they will reappear too, along with my avatar!

[Asterix2012]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

They've gone again but will reappear, we are assured. I'd started putting in a few from the last few months, which have also gone but I'm trusting they will reappear too, along with my avatar!

I just noticed some post migration ones missing from another thread too

[Rail-Online]

Edited April 6, 2022 by Rail-Online
For some strange reason I did not have anywhere to put my narrotive..... Exeter undated but probably 1920s Tony