More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Ian Smith]

For anyone interested, I have just uploaded the two GWR Wagon Sheet JPGs that I drew several years ago that have been lost in the RMweb problems.  They were originally in my personal gallery but I can't even find that in the new system, so I have therefore uploaded the two files to the "Community - Modelling" gallery :

 

 

I hope that these prove useful to fellow modellers of the Edwardian era.

Ian

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Ian Smith said:

I hope that these prove useful to fellow modellers of the Edwardian era.

 

Very public-spirited! As I said elsewhere, I'd never downloaded the earlier version with the angel's wing (the crest of the coat-of-arms of the City of London) which is, I believe, more appropriate to my c. 1902 modelling.

[magmouse]

57 minutes ago, Ian Smith said:

For anyone interested, I have just uploaded the two GWR Wagon Sheet JPGs that I drew several years ago that have been lost in the RMweb problems.  They were originally in my personal gallery but I can't even find that in the new system, so I have therefore uploaded the two files to the "Community - Modelling" gallery :

 

 

I hope that these prove useful to fellow modellers of the Edwardian era.

Ian

 

Thanks Ian - the sheet on the GWR red wagon I posted a picture of a few days ago on this thread was based on your artwork. Thank you for making it available again - much appreciated.

 

Nick.

 

[Craigw]

@Compound2632

 

This is a negative I won on Ebay a few weeks ago. Shows 3804 on a train at Breadsall 21st of June 1941. A Facebook wagon group have identified the middle wagon as a MR Dia. 607. Thought you might find it of interest.

 

A message to all who view, please do not share this photo elsewhere with out my approval.

 

Regards,

 

Craig

[Compound2632]

24 minutes ago, Craigw said:

A Facebook wagon group have identified the middle wagon as a MR Dia. 607.

 

I wouldn't disagree with them.

 

A wartime photo of a goods train, of such quality, is a rare find indeed.

 

Stanton and Montagu Higginson have multiple entries in Keith Turton's opus; the cupboard doors were rather a Stanton feature. Of course by this date PO mineral wagons were pooled, so there's no particular inference from their presence here. Both were rather large fleets.

[Craigw]

@Compound2632

 

Here is the other neg I won, taken on the same day apparently. I am a sucker for a photo with good views of wagons!

 

Regards,

 

Craig

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Craigw said:

Here is the other neg I won, taken on the same day apparently. I am a sucker for a photo with good views of wagons!

 

This is all well out of my comfort zone in terms of period, but were specialised PO wagons such as that Manchester Corporation hopper pooled / requisitioned?

[chris p bacon]

5 hours ago, Craigw said:

A message to all who view, please do not share this photo elsewhere with out my approval.

 

Regards,

 

Craig

 

 

As annoying as it might seem I'd put a watermark across them.

 

I've found my own photographs (taken in the 70's) on Ebay when they were downloaded from a site some years ago.

[Craigw]

5 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

As annoying as it might seem I'd put a watermark across them.

 

I've found my own photographs (taken in the 70's) on Ebay when they were downloaded from a site some years ago.

 

I suspect you are correct, and I will watermark them. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

@Compound2632, I would have thought the hopper was non-pool. One can imagine the delight of a coal merchant if one of them turned up for him to unload. These are twenty odd years after my period of interest, but I like buying negatives of things that interest me. If I see a negative with good views of wagons, then my heart skips a few beats!

 

Regards,

 

Craig W 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Craigw said:

If I see a negative with good views of wagons, then my heart skips a few beats!

 

Don't do anything that would disturb the repose of the cats!

[Penlan]

As others seem to go off topic sometimes........
Timber - 'Deal'.
There's a LNWR 24' long Dia 14 'Timber Wagon' in a circa 1890's photo (Photo in the LNWR Soc. Journal, Vol 9, No. 8)  that has the description along the side rail "TIMBER WAGON FOR DEALS ONLY  RETURN TO LIVERPOOL".

What exactly are Deals?
I checked timber terminology at https://www.greenspec.co.uk/building-design/timber-glossary/ to no avail.
I'm assuming (?) I may be able to cut up a load of wooden Coffee Stirrers for a load.
Any guidance, much appreciated.
This is the wagon I scratch built some 40 years ago, but added the (to heavy) lettering to yesterday - yes it needs toning down too, it's to bright.
I suppose somebody will tell me the chains are to heavy too, I can't disagree with that, but that was the only neckless chain suitable at the time 😎
.
Point of Order? When did the ends of brake handles start to be painted white?

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Penlan

[Asterix2012]

17 minutes ago, Penlan said:

As others seem to go off topic sometimes........
Timber - 'Deal'.
There's a LNWR 24' long Dia 14 'Timber Wagon' in a circa 1890's photo (Photo in the LNWR Soc. Journal, Vol 9, No. 8)  that has the description along the side rail "TIMBER WAGON FOR DEALS ONLY  RETURN TO LIVERPOOL".

What exactly are Deals?
I checked timber terminology at https://www.greenspec.co.uk/building-design/timber-glossary/ to no avail.
I'm assuming (?) I may be able to cut up a load of wooden Coffee Stirrers for a load.
Any guidance, much appreciated.
This is the wagon I scratch built some 40 years ago, but added the (to heavy) lettering to yesterday - yes it needs toning down too, it's to bright.
I suppose somebody will tell me the chains are to heavy too, I can't disagree with that, but that was the only neckless chain suitable at the time 😎

 

Google brings up a few things 

 

Deal was an archaic UK and US unit of volume used to measure wood. In the late 18th and early 19th centuries, a deal originally referred to a wooden board between 12 and 14 feet long that was traded as a maritime commodity.

 

Deal is a type of softwood, usually obtained from Scott pine trees, sawn with parallel sides of thickness 2 inches to 4 inches, and of width 9 inches to 11 inches.

 

And on this site

 

http://www.woodworkinghistory.com/glossary_deal.htm

 

In Britain -- where the term has a long history -- "deal" was introduced with the importation of sawn boards -- usually of fir or pine -- from a German part of the European continent. From the beginning "deal" was associated with these kinds of wood.

Its first meaning is evidently,

"A slice sawn from a log of timber (now always of fir or pine), and usually understood to be more than seven inches wide, and not more than three thick; a plank or board of pine or fir-wood", 

but as shown by the Oxford English Dictionary, historically, as this term relates to topics in the timber trade, numerous variations in the meaning of deal, have crept in.

In the timber trade, specific variations, geographically, are:

in Great Britain, a deal is understood to be 9 inches wide, not more than 3 inches thick, and at least 6 feet long. If shorter, it is a deal-end; if not more than 7 inches wide, it is a BATTEN; while 

[richbrummitt]

46 minutes ago, Penlan said:

When did the ends of brake handles start to be painted white?

During WWI

[kitpw]

56 minutes ago, Penlan said:

What exactly are Deals?

There are various explanations of the origin of the term "deals" but for practical purposes, the word came to mean imported sawn softwood but isn't much used now (my grandfather always talked about deal, not softwood). Wikipedia has an arcticle explaining the "measures" of timber, one of which is "deals" (see Asterix's notes above): this article https://www.paul-gibson.com/trade-and-industry/the-timber-industry.php is helpful on the timber industry in general and particularly concerning Hull and East Yorkshire (inevitably railways feature in the article): it includes (near the end) "Deal: a board or plank (generally spruce or pine) of considerable length and usually at least seven inches wide, which was pre-sawn and required no further sawing".

 

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by kitpw
didn't go to Specsavers

[Compound2632]

From what I can make out, deal boards can range from the 2½" x 7" (or larger) material used for wagon sheeting and flooring through to domestic floorboards - thinner, but similar width. As @Asterix2012 says, sawn softwood. (@kitpw has replied while I was typing confirming this.) I believe what I've modelled here is a load of deals, probably destined for house-building:

 

 

based on:

 

 

[Vastern Road yard, Reading, c. 1905.]

 

It seems that deals were often longer than the internal length of a typical open wagon. Whole this method of stacking overhanging the end seems to have been common, I suppose the introduction of longer double-bolster wagons on various railways was a response to this; the LNWR D14 is a little different in that it had no bolsters, so it wouldn't be available for other traffic such as rails or girders that would need to have chains or ropes passed beneath the load to lift it on or off the wagon by crane.

 

The east coast ports are usually associated with the Baltic timber trade. I wonder if the timber coming in through Liverpool was chiefly North American? 

 

One final thought - would a load of deals on a D14 be sheeted? The evidence of the Vastern Road photo and others I've seen is that, being finished boards, it was considered worth-while to make some effort to protect them from the elements.

 

EDIT: More. here's how to deal with deals:

 

 

[Embedded link to Warwickshire Railways mrcgy915d, Birmingham Central Goods Station, 1922.]

 

Note the wagon on the right still has its sheet at least partly in place.

 

  

13 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

During WWI

 

I've seen nothing to support that in the many early 1920s wagon and goods yard photos I've looked at. Did you mean to type WWII?

Edited October 24, 2022 by Compound2632

[Paul Cram]

1 hour ago, Penlan said:

As others seem to go off topic sometimes........
Timber - 'Deal'.
There's a LNWR 24' long Dia 14 'Timber Wagon' in a circa 1890's photo (Photo in the LNWR Soc. Journal, Vol 9, No. 8)  that has the description along the side rail "TIMBER WAGON FOR DEALS ONLY  RETURN TO LIVERPOOL".

What exactly are Deals?
I checked timber terminology at https://www.greenspec.co.uk/building-design/timber-glossary/ to no avail.
I'm assuming (?) I may be able to cut up a load of wooden Coffee Stirrers for a load.
Any guidance, much appreciated.
This is the wagon I scratch built some 40 years ago, but added the (to heavy) lettering to yesterday - yes it needs toning down too, it's to bright.
I suppose somebody will tell me the chains are to heavy too, I can't disagree with that, but that was the only neckless chain suitable at the time 😎
.
Point of Order? When did the ends of brake handles start to be painted white?

 

On a minor point the chain would have been stored in the chain pockets when they weren't securing a load.

[Craigw]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

From what I can make out, deal boards can range from the 2½" x 7" (or larger) material used for wagon sheeting and flooring through to domestic floorboards - thinner, but similar width. As @Asterix2012 says, sawn softwood. (@kitpw has replied while I was typing confirming this.) I believe what I've modelled here is a load of deals, probably destined for house-building:

 

 

based on:

 

 

[Vastern Road yard, Reading, c. 1905.]

 

It seems that deals were often longer than the internal length of a typical open wagon. Whole this method of stacking overhanging the end seems to have been common, I suppose the introduction of longer double-bolster wagons on various railways was a response to this; the LNWR D14 is a little different in that it had no bolsters, so it wouldn't be available for other traffic such as rails or girders that would need to have chains or ropes passed beneath the load to lift it on or off the wagon by crane.

 

The east coast ports are usually associated with the Baltic timber trade. I wonder if the timber coming in through Liverpool was chiefly North American? 

 

One final thought - would a load of deals on a D14 be sheeted? The evidence of the Vastern Road photo and others I've seen is that, being finished boards, it was considered worth-while to make some effort to protect them from the elements.

 

EDIT: More. here's how to deal with deals:

 

 

[Embedded link to Warwickshire Railways mrcgy915d, Birmingham Central Goods Station, 1922.]

 

Note the wagon on the right still has its sheet at least partly in place.

 

  

 

I've seen nothing to support that in the many early 1920s wagon and goods yard photos I've looked at. Did you mean to type WWII?

 

The GWR was painting at least part of the DC handle white by the early post WW1 period. Photographs on page 105-107 of GWRJ No. 66 show various vans with part of the handle painted white. The photos date from (possibly) WW1 through to the early - mid 1920s.

 

Regards,

 

Craig

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Craigw said:

The GWR was painting at least part of the DC handle white by the early post WW1 period.

 

Perhaps that was to help non-GW railwaymen find the brake!

 

I've had a quick flip through R.J. Essery and K.R. Morgan, The LMS Wagon (David & Charles, 1977) - my only thorough-going post grouping wagon book - and have found only five instances of white-painted brake handles, all on more specialised stock - a 20 ton loco coal wagon, a creosote tank wagon, and three hopper wagons, one for ballast and the other two for ore. All but the first are in pre-1936 livery and are officials of wagons built by private builders, which I think may be significant.

[Western Star]

32 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

One final thought - would a load of deals on a D14 be sheeted? The evidence of the Vastern Road photo and others I've seen is that, being finished boards,

The word which caught my attention in this extract is "finished"...  so what was the surface finish of sawn timber in the early 20th century.  I expect that we are all familiar with the term PAR (planed all round) which means that the wood has been planed (smooth) on four edges - otherwise wood is described as "sawn" and that is definitely not smooth (read as capable of giving you splinters).

 

If, as suggested by Stephen @Compound2632 the deals in the wagons are for housing projects then I doubt that such timber would be usable as floorboards without further "finishing".

 

Kit @kitpw - can you illuminate the matter?

 

regards, Graham

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Western Star said:

The word which caught my attention in this extract is "finished"...  

 

If, as suggested by Stephen @Compound2632 the deals in the wagons are for housing projects then I doubt that such timber would be usable as floorboards without further "finishing".

 

My first supplementary question is, at what level of finish did sheeting become a requirement? Is that only for fully finished, planed boards, or for sawn deals too?

 

In my models illustrated above, I made the boards from 20 thou plasticard, which gives a smooth finish - representing planed boards. But for a load of sawn deals (if you will excuse what is evidently a tautology) should some grain be apparent? (Thinking of @Penlan's coffee stirers.) 

 

My second supplementary question concerns the material used for wagon sheeting and floorboards. The Midland C&W Committee Minutes contain an annual return of timber on hand (and valuation) and anticipated requirements for the coming year. These are lengthy entries which because of their extreme tediousness I have not transcribed, but I do have a reference to "deals and battens for wagons" in a 1902 minute dealing with the proposed increase in size of wagons. My impression from photographs of new-built wagons is that the sheeting at least has a smoother surface finish than one would expect from machine sawing alone; indeed the carriage and wagon works had planing machines. So is the stock of deals and battens that David Bain mentioned, sawn timber held in stock but not yet planed to final size?

 

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Compound2632

[Penlan]

Many thanks one & all, it seems the Coffee stirrers are to thick for 'proper' deal boards.  I don't think I have any veneer material to hand.
Re. the overhang, in LNWR Wagons Vol.1 it mentions the there's no upstand above the buffer beam, the top is level with the flooring to allow the overhang of timber?
It looks like I've a lot of white brake handles to paint over.
There's a bit of chain in the pockets, but a finer - perhaps 30+ links per inch - chain would be more suitable, I do have some, somewhere.  Another tweak job to be done.

[jamie92208]

It's interesting  that the high end of the overhanging planks isn't sheeted.  Rain penetration of the cut ends whilst in transit can actually increase the weight of the timber significantly.  I wonder if photographic evidence shows that the exposed ends were usually opposite to the direction of travel.

 

Jamie

[corneliuslundie]

Interesting about the "deal" wagons. I built one of these is 7 mm for the club layout from the drawing in the LNWR wagons book, assuming that it would carry round timber. If I am wrong perhaps it needs carry sawn timber away from the yard instead of sawn timber in.

What do others think?

 

And re coffee stirrers, is it just round here or have they become much narrower in recent months> 4 mm rather than 7 mm?

Jonathan

 

 

[Dave John]

 

 

Agreed Western Star , the basic deals would be finished to size locally so would probably be off saw finish for transport as shown. 

 

There used to be a firm out in the east end with a similar machine to that one, I had custom floorboards and door mouldings run to match the existing victorian ones for a few restoration projects. Gone now unfortunately. 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Dave John

[Compound2632]

53 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

I wonder if photographic evidence shows that the exposed ends were usually opposite to the direction of travel.

 

I don't know about photographic evidence but although the BR period instructions make no mention of sheeting, they do state "overhang to be at trailing end where possible". Likewise, going back to those hay or straw loads with two sheets, the rule was that the overlap should be with the sheet at the leading end over the sheet at the trailing end. I think the reason is pretty obvious - the open end of the sheet would catch the wind, risking being pulled off.