More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Since it is the Scottish companies that had empty cask wagons, is it anything to to with the whiskey distilling business, that uses casks previously containing sherry, etc.?

 

But then wouldn't one expect them to be Highland or Great North wagons? (Although it would I suppose depend on where the casks became empty.)

[Mikkel]

While on the topic, I have noticed that some casks (?) have rope or some sort of similar organic material (sisal?) rather than hoops. Below is a rather unwieldy example. What might such casks contain, I wonder. Something that doesn't leak I suppose. 

 

Caption: 4th May 1917: Women war workers moving crates and barrels on the Midland Railway at Somerton, Somerset. Source: Getty Images. Embedding permitted.

 

Interesting vans in the background, btw.

 

 

[Dave John]

The early CR ones were on salvaged coach frames, only rated  at 3 Tons, later ones 6 Tons. As Magmouse says mainly casks for distiilleries, though some for fish and jam. 

[kitpw]

9 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

rope or some sort of similar organic material

...I think "withies".  Split willow stems.

 

[magmouse]

43 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

While on the topic, I have noticed that some casks (?) have rope or some sort of similar organic material (sisal?) rather than hoops.

 

39 minutes ago, kitpw said:

...I think "withies".  Split willow stems.

 

I noticed the same thing when researching casks previously on barrels of fish, though those were much smaller than the one in your picture. I wasn't sure whether that was to hold the cask together, or to protect it from damage when rolling. Possibly both, I guess.

 

Nick.

 

Nick.

[Chrisbr]

Given the date, could it be related to the War effort - avoid unnecessary use of metal?

[41516]

I've given myself a few minutes and gone and fetched one of my Ratio NB cask wagons from the box of "things I don't need but might like"

 

Two wagons, both originally 10T rated, just to show the huge difference in volume of the empty cask wagons against a standard unit of measurement...

 

 

Edit: The Ratio kit appears to be the hinged door Diagram 65B of which no photos appear in LNER Wagons Vol3, rather than sliding door 67B.

 

"The carrying capacity of diagram 65B with 7 1/2 by 3 3/4 journals was later reduced from 8 to 3 tons" pg61.  Definitely empties only!

Edited January 30, 2023 by 41516
Tatlow comments added

[Andy Hayter]

From memory for the NBR, used port and largely sherry casks which were shipped into the port of Leven and then distributed to the local Fife distilleries and quite possibly the central belt ones as well.  AS far as Fife is concerned, distances will be very small and unless there is an obvious back load I suspect it was easier to return empty.  Bottled whisky for export comes to mind but then I think you would need a bonded wagon and not an open top one.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Andy Hayter
typo

[magmouse]

And to return for a moment to another type of wagon load hotly debated in these pages, I have finally finished my GWR 4-plank with straw load, inspired by @Mikkel's splendid 4mm essays on the theme:

 

 

Nick.

 

[kitpw]

There's a "withied" barrel in the photo whch Mikkel included in the post above.  I've no idea what's in it but there it is.

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

While on the topic, I have noticed that some casks (?) have rope or some sort of similar organic material (sisal?) rather than hoops. Below is a rather unwieldy example. What might such casks contain, I wonder. Something that doesn't leak I suppose. 

 

Nails.

 

Casks were used for all sorts of non-liquid goods, including statuary and dead bodies, according to BNCR / MR(NCC) employee Freeman Wills Crofts in his 1920 debut detective novel, The Cask. (I'm indebted to someone on here for mentioning this book; I'm afraid I forget who.)

 

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Caption: 4th May 1917: Women war workers moving crates and barrels on the Midland Railway at Somerton, Somerset. 

 

A confused caption, I think. Somerton was a Great Western station and the goods station depicted, with at least 26 bays, is out of all proportion to anything there.

 

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Interesting vans in the background, btw.

 

The most clearly visible ones are a LNWR D33, with sliding roof door and doors on both sides, and a Midland Refrigerator Meat Van, I think the D395 type of 1910. The opens are not at all easy to identify.

 

27 minutes ago, magmouse said:

And to return for a moment to another type of wagon load hotly debated in these pages, I have finally finished my GWR 4-plank with straw load, inspired by @Mikkel's splendid 4mm essays on the theme:

 

It is my intention to do a straw or hay load, based on:

 

 

which does look remarkably like your's - I'm happy seeing you blaze the trail!

[magmouse]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

which does look remarkably like your's - I'm happy seeing you blaze the trail!

The part of the picture you showed is the same excerpt I used as the main inspiration for my model - so yes, we are both thinking very much on the same lines.

 

I was part way into my build when I realised, looking again at this picture, the nearer wagon looks longer than the others - or possibly the straw overhangs the end more. Certainly it sticks out further from under the sheet than the others, and the sheets were of course standard sizes. Possibly the sheet was put on off-centre. Trying to get the form of the load is all part of the fun, and something I think I could do better next time around.

 

Nick.

[Mikkel]

6 hours ago, kitpw said:

There's a "withied" barrel in the photo whch Mikkel included in the post above.  I've no idea what's in it but there it is.

 

 

Here is another one, in the second wagon from the front. 

 

 

The image is a crop from a photo of Reading's Transhipment shed, which hopefully one day will be a feature at Farthing.

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Mikkel
Cleaning up

[Jol Wilkinson]

10 hours ago, 41516 said:

LNER Wagons Vol3, Tatlow pg 63

 

"703544, an ex-NB cask wagon....rated at 12 tons capacity, thereby suggesting that these vehicles were capable of conveying a load of full barrels, as much as empty ones" .  So very much puzzling why the majority appear to be marked for empty casks only.  Preventing overloading?

 

I don't know a great deal about the mixture of breweries, distilleries and glass works around Edinburgh that Tatlow suggests the wagons were primarily allocated for. Was it easier to have fewer but larger wagons bringing back empties where a high volume wagon was preferred to many smaller ones?

 

 

 

Were loaded barrels conveyed in vans, for security reasons? While empties went by open wagon (nothing worth stealing). The LNWR had beer vans, built to Diagram 15AFAIK (very similar to the standard D32 van)  rated at 7tons with gaps between the planks, presumably for ventilation/cooling. 

[kitpw]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

The image is a crop from a photo of Reading's Transhipment shed

I'm very taken with the 3 legged portable desk - must get one of those. There's also a polished chrome-plated tractor seat adjacent to the withied barrel but it doesn't seem to be attached to a tractor.

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

The image is a crop from a photo of Reading's Transhipment shed, which hopefully one day will be a feature at Farthing.

 

I suppose this must be the Kings Meadow building, since there was no other goods shed of comparable size in the vicinity. Is the photo from one of Tony Atkins' Goods Train Working books? I'm interested that it is known to have been used for transhipment, rather than just being an ordinary goods warehouse.

 

The nearest wagon, loaded with Burtonesque casks, seems to be a curved-end 3-plank. Is the date of the photo known?

Edited January 30, 2023 by Compound2632

[figworthy]

12 hours ago, Mikkel said:

While on the topic, I have noticed that some casks (?) have rope or some sort of similar organic material (sisal?) rather than hoops. Below is a rather unwieldy example. What might such casks contain, I wonder. Something that doesn't leak I suppose. 

 

Caption: 4th May 1917: Women war workers moving crates and barrels on the Midland Railway at Somerton, Somerset. Source: Getty Images. Embedding permitted.

 

Interesting vans in the background, btw.

 

 

 

Could it be that they are avoiding using steel (or iron) bands.  The caption mentions women war workers, and if it is anything to do with munitions, then they will be looking at means of avoiding sparks.

 

Adrian

[Mikkel]

11 hours ago, kitpw said:

I'm very taken with the 3 legged portable desk - must get one of those. 

 

 

They are a nice detail. Played a role in the Cuban Missile crisis too, believe it or not. 

 

 

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I suppose this must be the Kings Meadow building, since there was no other goods shed of comparable size in the vicinity. Is the photo from one of Tony Atkins' Goods Train Working books? I'm interested that it is known to have been used for transhipment, rather than just being an ordinary goods warehouse.

 

The nearest wagon, loaded with Burtonesque casks, seems to be a curved-end 3-plank. Is the date of the photo known?

 

There are two photos of the "transshipment shed" in Atkins' GWR Goods Services Vol 2A. One is dated "ca 1900", the other "in Edwardian days". He uses the transshipment term in both cases and describes how the shed was used for sorting small consignments from company and foreign lines, destined for GWR locations within the district and neighbouring companies.

 

I have been wondering about the location. Atkins distinguishes the transhipment shed from the King's Meadow goods shed (built 1896), of which there are several external  photos.  The goods shed does appear a good deal higher than the relatively low roof seen in the photos of the transshipment shed, although the angle may deceive.

 

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

I have been wondering about the location. Atkins distinguishes the transhipment shed from the King's Meadow goods shed (built 1896), of which there are several external  photos.  The goods shed does appear a good deal higher than the relatively low roof seen in the photos of the transshipment shed, although the angle may deceive.

 

Then i am thoroughly puzzled. The only goods building that matches at all is that at Kings Meadow. There was no covered accommodation at Vastern Road apart from the banana shed (which was curved) or at Central Goods, at the end of the Coley branch, which opened in 1908.

[Mikkel]

I wonder if the transshipment shed is the lower structure seen in this photo, in extention of what Atkins call the goods shed. The photos of the latter are all taken from the other end so could conceal it.

 

That would mean that the transshipment shed was built in extension of the "main" goods shed, which would have required some careful organising.

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

I wonder if the transshipment shed is the lower structure seen in this photo, in extention of what Atkins call the goods shed. The photos of the latter are all taken from the other end so could conceal it.

 

Ah, I think you have it. The 1931 OS 25" survey, https://maps.nls.uk/view/104197867, shows the curved-roof extension visible in that photo, but the 1909, https://maps.nls.uk/view/104197870, and 1898, https://maps.nls.uk/view/104197873, surveys show a long building that does correspond to the two pitched-roof buildings in the photo. This building evidently dates from after 1875, since the survey of that year, https://maps.nls.uk/view/104197876, shows the broad gauge goods shed on the opposite side of the main line to the up and down passenger stations. This was presumably demolished when the station was rebuild in conjunction with the quadrupling (see the 1898 survey).

[Asterix2012]

On 30/01/2023 at 08:47, Compound2632 said:

 

But then wouldn't one expect them to be Highland or Great North wagons? (Although it would I suppose depend on where the casks became empty.)

You would be surprised where distilleries existed and still exist then, all over the shop even in cities, definitely not just the Highlands and North East.

 

And there were large brewers as well 

 

Were there not also dedicated cooperages as well which might have a two way traffic of empty barrels?

 

I think the imported sherry, brandy etc casks would go for repair/ checking before heading off to load with whisky too?

[37Oban]

The subject of transporting whisky, and barrels, by rail is a fascinating one.

 

This is not be taken as gospel, but I believe that barrels of whisky were conveyed in open wagons, depending on the route to be taken to their final destination.  This was simply that most whisky barrels were too large to manhandle into covered vans whereas they could be rolled or craned into opens.  I'm pretty sure there are photographs around that show such full barrels in open wagons in mixed freight services, especially on the Speyside line and in BR days.  No doubt an internet search can find these.

 

Regarding specialised barrel wagons, such as used by the Caledonian Railway, I think it was soon found out that they were uneconomical to operate.  At first they seem like a good idea but apart from empty barrels they were unsuited to other sorts of traffic and so spent half their lives running empty.  Much easier, and cheaper, to load the barrels into opens that then could be used to convey full barrels in return, thus generating two lots of revenue instead of one!

 

Ropja

[magmouse]

There is a photo of GWR wagons being loaded with Welsh whisky here:

 

https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/32565#?xywh=-63%2C-76%2C777%2C625

 

 

(embedded link)

 

Nick.

[Mikkel]

Looks like the local chapter of the Temperance movement have turned up :-)