More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[jwealleans]

48 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Stephenson Clarke the loco coal contractor for the entire L&SWR?

 

I believe this was the case, yes.

[kevinlms]

On 09/10/2021 at 18:12, Compound2632 said:

I've been following a random train of thought. The LNWR Society Facebook Group had a post with a photo of the aftermath of an accident on the LNWR at Chelford, Cheshire, in 1894, which had me off burrowing through the accident reports. This led me to Lt.-Col. Yorke's report into a three-train pile-up at Verdin's Sidings just north of Winsford Junction on 3 July 1899. There were mercifully no injuries beyond shocks and bruises but much destruction of goods wagons, all dutifully recorded.

 

The fault lay with the driver of the 10 pm Crewe-Garston coal train, who, after setting off several wagons at Verdin's siding, mistook the signals on the down main for his own, though he was on the down loop - there had been a notice of a change in the signalling here that he admitted to not having read. His train, Coal Engine No. 940 with 32 wagons, 30 loaded and two empty, and brake, ploughed off the end of the loop into the abutment of an overbridge, despite his attempts to put the engine in reverse and the guard, realising the error, screwing down his brake. Wagons were thrown onto the down main, where they were struck by the 9 pm Crewe-Carlisle express goods, 42 wagons and break, headed by 6ft Whitworth 2-4-0 No. 901 Hero. The signalman at Verdin's sidings box threw his up main signals to danger, so the 9:55pm Liverpool-Abergavenny return excursion, headed by Special DX No. 1243, was slowing in anticipation of seeing the up home at danger when it struck the wreckage. 

 

The list of damaged stock is interesting. There were quite a number of foreign wagons, all of which, I would presume, were in the Carlisle express goods - that's the train to model if you want an eclectic lot of pre-grouping goods wagons:

• Furness van and open
• GNoS meat van
• Great Eastern open
• G&SW meat van, van, and fish truck
• two North British opens

along with a L&NW covered goods and 13 L&NW opens.

 

There's a L&NW traffic coal wagon listed; that was almost certainly in the Garston coal train, along with nine Midland Coal, Coke & Iron Co wagons and three of P. Speakman & Sons. The Midland Coal, Coke & Iron Co is well known to me - there are several of their wagons drawn in Tavender's Coal Trade Wagons and we've seen several more in the down empty goods train caught in photos of the wreckage of the Wellingborough accident. Curiously, six of the MCC&I Co's wagons have numbers in the range 1625-1693, suggesting this might be block working of a set of wagons from a particular batch? These numbers are missing from the list of MCC&I Co wagons hired from the Birmingham RC&W Co given by Tavender but another casualty, No. 2139, can be identified as one of a batch of 105 10 ton wagons bought on deferred terms on 1 April 1890. (The Birmingham RC&W Co's records survive in the Staffordshire Record Office, I gather, so that firm seems to be the best documented after the Gloucester RC&W Co.) One MCC&I Co wagon was so completely broken up that its number could not be identified.

 

I thought the chances of finding out anything about P. Speakman & Sons' wagons were slim. They probably had a rather smaller fleet, though still larger than many - their damaged wagons were Nos. 164, 365, and 412. However, idly googling for images relating to the MCC&I Co, I came across this photo of Jamage Colliery, which, like the MCC&I Co's Apedale Colliery, was in the Noth Staffordshire coalfield:

 

 

 

 

[http://nsmg.apedale.co.uk/Mouldspits/bpits.htm]

 

According to that site, Jamage (Bignall Hill) Colliery was acquired by Settle Speakman in 1918. (Graces Guide suggests that was a firm, perhaps incorporating Philip Speakman & Sons. Other than that there's nothing on Philip Speakman & Sons, though there is an entry for John Speakman & Sons, owners of collieries in Leigh in the 1890s. I don't know what date to put on this photo - pre or post-Great War? - but I think that's a North Staffs tank engine lurking amongst the wagons - possibly a Class D 0-6-0T?

 

As Philip Speakman & Sons advertise themselves on their wagons as a Liverpool firm and evidently had interests in a North Staffs colliery, the presence of their wagons in a Crewe-Garston coal train is intelligible!

 

 

In Model Railway Constructor for 1973 August, there is a painting of a wagon for Settle Speakman & Co. Ltd. of Stoke, Staffs (it is one of 6 paintings commissioned by MRC). It is black with white lettering and is lettered as a 12 Ton vehicle, but no number is shown.

Perhaps that is your North Staffs connection?

[wagonman]

On 17/04/2023 at 16:57, Compound2632 said:

 

 

 

[Embedded link to SmugMug gallery.]

 

Again this is well after the goods stock was divided between the Midland and the South Western, as No. 69 had been renumbered from No. 44 in 1928 and was also to be withdrawn in 1930. The wagon number ends 71, so presumably No. 1171, these eighty wagons being numbered 1122-1201. But what does that plaque say?

 

Another of the Casserley photos from the late '20s...

 

[Rowsley17D]

1 hour ago, wagonman said:

 

Another of the Casserley photos from the late '20s...

 

 

Also, don't worry too much if your buffers don't line up. I guess it's due to the wagon being loaded and tired springs.

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, kevinlms said:

In Model Railway Constructor for 1973 August, there is a painting of a wagon for Settle Speakman & Co. Ltd. of Stoke, Staffs (it is one of 6 paintings commissioned by MRC). It is black with white lettering and is lettered as a 12 Ton vehicle, but no number is shown.

Perhaps that is your North Staffs connection?

 

As I recall, in subsequent posts the relationship between P. Speakman, S. Speakman, and the later firm of Settle Speakman was discussed.

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, wagonman said:

 

Another of the Casserley photos from the late '20s...

 

 

So, is that empty to, on hire to, or now owned by Somerset Collieries, Radstock?

[wagonman]

18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

So, is that empty to, on hire to, or now owned by Somerset Collieries, Radstock?

 

Good question. On balance I would go for your second suggestion "on hire to". "Empty to" would have stipulated a specific colliery, and "sold to" didn't happen. It does rather put a spanner in the Loco Coal works, so to speak.

 

This discussion made me dig out my copy of Chris Handley's excellent book on the Maritime Activities of the S&DR. These activities – primarily the importation of rails from Newport – ended abruptly in 1933 when they sold their last two vessels, the SS Julia and the SS Radstock. Though they did carry occasional cargoes of coal under S&D auspices I doubt it was on behalf of the Loco Dept.

 

Further digging required.

[Compound2632]

 

A souvenir of Saturday's Midland Railway Society AGM at the Museum of Making, Derby. The design is based on an example in the Midland Railway Study Centre collection, though I think that one is branded TRENT rather than DERBY.

 

The AGM business was conducted with commendable swiftness; the most noteworthy point being the standing-down of our long-serving Chair, @Dave Hunt, with @Crimson Rambler taking his place. There was plenty of opportunity for book-buying, discussion, and admiration of the Chairman's Cup entries before @jamie92208's Presidential Address (given via Zoom from the south of France) on extractive industries served by the Midland Railway north and west of Skipton - including a good deal that he has already mentioned or illustrated in this thread.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Way back in the first lockdown I had a couple of @TurboSnail's 3D printed Brighton Open As; he was also showing a South Eastern goods break van, of the type that was assigned D1553 by the Southern, for which I had quite a hankering. These and others are now available from @BlueLightning's Oak Hill Works so I thought I'd order the break, as an experiment. Here's what comes in the box:

 

 

plus a bag of brake shoes. (The bendy solebar on the right went that way when in hot water for degreasing and went straight again on repeating the process.)

 

The kit as presented represents a vehicle as running in later SE&CR and Southern days, with continuous upper footboard, full length lower footboard, and vertical boards in the lower half of the guard's doors. Of course I'm aiming for South Eastern condition, as built, taking as my reference the two photos of No. 1880 of an 1896 Ashford-built batch, as seen in Southern Wagons Vol. 3 plates 147 and 148. 

 

These photos show the guard's doors with flat panels with half-round beading. I cut two pieces of 0.015" Plastikard just over 0.5 mm smaller in with and height than the space between the framing and Mek-Pak'd strips of 0.020" by 0.010" Microstrip round the edge. Each panel was cyano'd into place.

 

The photos also show individual upper footboards for the guard's doors and the double doors and lower footboards that extend only as far as the axlebox at the further end from the guard's compartment. I got quite a long way with trimming the footboards to length but after snapping a chunk out of the wrong place I decided to remove them entirely, with the intention of making replacements, or possibly re-using the lower footboards with wire supports. I ended up filing the front faces of the solebars smooth (ish) with the intention of re-making all detail. I found it possible to scrape and scrawk the rear of the axleguards to thin down the visible edge, though I only did this on the outer edges where it has the most visible effect. 

 

I also removed the NEM sockets from the underside - in fact that act of violence was my first move.

 

So here is the basic assembly, a coat of the back-in-stock Halfords rattle-can grey plastic primer making all the difference:

 

 

No wheels, though the solebars are cyano'd in place. I drilled out the axleboxes as deep as I dared at 2 mm diameter and then with a 3 mm diameter rebate, so that MJT waisted bearings were sunk will in, but I still had axleguard splay. The bearings were too deep in to be winkled out again, so it's going to be MJT inside bearing units...

 

I'm happy with this so far, apart from the bearing issue being a bit awkward - though not having the wheels trapped in place may well be an advantage when it comes to rebuilding the lower footboards. I'm still, though, of the view that 3D printing is at its best as part of a multimedia kit, with etched brass for components that need to be thinner and/or less brittle. But I can understand why a cottage manufacturer will prefer a single medium. 

 

This reminds me that I need to find where I put my @Andy Vincent/Brassmasters Gloucester wagon kit after my last workbench move! 

[Compound2632]

I mentioned the box. It's a good sized stout cardboard box with room for a well bubble-wrapped wagon. I used it to pack my double sheeted D299 for the trip to Derby, that being my entry in the Chairman's Cup.

[Andy Vincent]

17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

This reminds me that I need to find where I put my @Andy Vincent/Brassmasters Gloucester wagon kit after my last workbench move! 

There will be some new versions to perhaps tempt you at ExpoEM, so speed might be of the essence - although perhaps not of the hobby!

[BlueLightning]

29 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm still, though, of the view that 3D printing is at its best as part of a multimedia kit, with etched brass for components that need to be thinner and/or less brittle. But I can understand why a cottage manufacturer will prefer a single medium. 

 

You're not the only one that prefers multimedia, when finally building one for myself I will roll a new roof out of brass for example, but requiring that in the kit would defeat the point of them being able to be made by anyone with any skill level.

 

 

Love the mods you've made so far, looking forward to seeing it finished.

 

Gary

 

PS. Glad you liked and found a use for the box, they were quite expensive (as far as boxes go)

Edited April 24, 2023 by BlueLightning

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

requiring that in the kit would defeat the point of them being able to be made by anyone with any skill level.

 

Quite. The kit as supplied would go together nice and straightforwardly to make a later-condition version, barring the bearing issue. I don't recall that being a problem with the Birmingham and Cravens Open As.

 

Of course what I now want is a 3D-printed bodyline kit for a Stirling Class O 0-6-0 in 1890s condition, to sit on Bachmann Class C chassis. (I think that would work?)

[corneliuslundie]

I must admit that for footboards I prefer brass angle. It is too easy to break anything else. And I saw on the Eileen's Emporium thread that someone else has bought all the stock of brass sections etc, so they should still be available.

But I seem to have missed why the SER is of interest to you. Isn't the Midland big enough>?

Jonathan

[Andy Vincent]

42 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm still, though, of the view that 3D printing is at its best as part of a multimedia kit, with etched brass for components that need to be thinner and/or less brittle. But I can understand why a cottage manufacturer will prefer a single medium. 

This was part of the feedback I had from @Compound2632 and others when I first started producing 3D printed wagons and it mostly aligns with my thoughts. However, as @BlueLightning noted, my original assumption had been that buyers would want a complete unit. Ultimately, I decided that a printed body plus a set of axlebox/springs and a set of buffers (with alternative versions of both available) was the best compromise.

 

The one downside of this approach arises where there is no brass subframe available for the wagon that I want to offer. This somewhat constrains not so much my choice of what to produce, but rather the speed of doing it. I have a hopper wagon where the CAD is virtually complete and has been test printed but is at that point where I have to decide whether to design suspension components in brass and have them etched.

 

 

[Schooner]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm still, though, of the view that 3D printing is at its best as part of a multimedia kit, with etched brass for components that need to be thinner and/or less brittle.

 

As an end-user only, I think it important to challenge this norm now it's possible to do so. Forgive the repost from elsewhere, I hope it serves as a useful demo.

 

It is perfectly possible to source, at competitive price, a resin capable of excellent detail...

(this is a very cruel close up, with nothing done from the box but the fitting of wheels and an investigative waft of primer)

 

...and high resiliance:

Note also the compression marks. I was, eventually, able to get the sprue to snap but it took some doing.

 

The wagon comes with perfectly functional 3D printed coupling chains and buffer spring coils.

 

I've no idea what the resin is or the implications of using it, but whatever @billbedford of Mousa Models fills his machines with is outstanding. The more widely consumers know to ask for these qualities and suppliers know to provide them the better. 

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Schooner
To make it clear: no slight at all intended to any of the excellent printed kits from many designers gracing my little layout. I'm glad of them all!

[BlueLightning]

40 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

barring the bearing issue. I don't recall that being a problem with the Birmingham and Cravens Open As.

 

I can mention that to Tom, I can't recall the as designed setup and how it differs from his open A's off hand, and all my bits are currently packed away and out of easy reach having not yet unpacked from showing off most of the range (including a few unannounced upcoming bits) at the Brighton Circles Spring Meeting over the weekend.

 

42 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Of course what I now want is a 3D-printed bodyline kit for a Stirling Class O 0-6-0 in 1890s condition, to sit on Bachmann Class C chassis.

 

Wouldn't that be wonderful 😉

 

 

Oxford Dean Goods rather than Bachmann C Class

 

Gary

[Andy Vincent]

10 minutes ago, Schooner said:

 

It is perfectly possible to source, at competitive price, a resin capable of excellent detail...

I absolutely agree with that - and there has been a further step change in the last few months.

 

However, I think your photo illustrates where the challenge lies, which is in how to support the wagon whilst it is printing in ways that leave no marks. If you look at the brake lever in your photograph, you can see the damaged areas where the supports have been removed and the sagging between each support. Also the way the brake push rods seem to sag and the area at the base of the solebar where some delamination has occurred because it is nigh on impossible to get a support at that point (and be able to remove it after printing.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am impressed by and admire @billbedford's models and have at least one. My agreement with @Compound2632's point is more about offering modellers the options to build the best possible model that they can produce short of scratchbuilding. Now there are modellers - like me - who cannot solder well, so the same brutal closeup of an underframe that I had soldered up would likely have more shortcomings than shown in your photo!!

 

Ultimately, both options have their places and the real positive is that a growing number of models are becoming available that are unlikely to ever be offered through either RTR or injection moulding.

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Andy Vincent said:

new versions to perhaps tempt you

 

Curious to know what's next?

 

As for the other discussion above, I personally would rather have brass for axleguards and brake rigging, both for looks and (whisper it quietly) comparative ease of assmbly by soldering. 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, WFPettigrew said:

As for the other discussion above, I personally would rather have brass for axleguards and brake rigging, both for looks and (whisper it quietly) comparative ease of assmbly by soldering. 

 

There is of course nothing to stop one from trashing the printed running gear, if suitable replacement axlebox / spring units are available, in whitemetal or whatever. (Which reminds me I should push on with that lowside wagon.)

[magmouse]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

There is of course nothing to stop one from trashing the printed running gear, if suitable replacement axlebox / spring units are available, in whitemetal or whatever. (Which reminds me I should push on with that lowside wagon.)

 

Yes, one can do that - but wouldn't it be easier if these parts were supplied as separate components, allowing the kit to be 'complete' (attractive to many people who don't want the hassle of sourcing alternative components) while still allowing easy upgrades/alternatives for those that want that? I have to say I have never understood what seems to be the almost universal approach to 3D printing wagons of printing the entire wagon in one go, "brakes and all".

 

To be clear - I say this as someone who has never done any 3D printing, but who takes an interest in the many accounts on this forum and elsewhere of those who are. I do wonder if some of the issues with supports, sagging, etc would get easier of some of the more delicate and complex parts were printed as separate components. And there is still some pleasure to be had in the assembling of a kit, perhaps? Otherwise the only thing I am doing is popping some wheels and maybe couplings on, and painting it. And I don't much like painting...

 

Nick.

[Schooner]

41 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

I absolutely agree with that

And I with you! 3D printing is not a cure-all one-size-fit-all magicall (sorry) wonderfall (okay okay) material, just another tool in the box, another way to tackle challenges.

 

I too really like brass running gear and details (it makes me feel like a proper modeller 🤣). I took aim only at the old tropes of weakness/brittleness and lack of detail, which are less accurate by the week!

 

Edit: Or rather 'need not stay accurate' as software, printers and resins develop at breakneck speed

Edited April 24, 2023 by Schooner

[billbedford]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm still, though, of the view that 3D printing is at its best as part of a multimedia kit, with etched brass for components that need to be thinner and/or less brittle. But I can understand why a cottage manufacturer will prefer a single medium. 

Ok, but remember that some of this parish still believe white metal is the only proper material for loco kits. 

[Andy Vincent]

19 minutes ago, magmouse said:

 

Yes, one can do that - but wouldn't it be easier if these parts were supplied as separate components, allowing the kit to be 'complete' (attractive to many people who don't want the hassle of sourcing alternative components) while still allowing easy upgrades/alternatives for those that want that? I have to say I have never understood what seems to be the almost universal approach to 3D printing wagons of printing the entire wagon in one go, "brakes and all".

 

To be clear - I say this as someone who has never done any 3D printing, but who takes an interest in the many accounts on this forum and elsewhere of those who are. I do wonder if some of the issues with supports, sagging, etc would get easier of some of the more delicate and complex parts were printed as separate components. And there is still some pleasure to be had in the assembling of a kit, perhaps? Otherwise the only thing I am doing is popping some wheels and maybe couplings on, and painting it. And I don't much like painting...

 

Nick.

 

This largely echoes my thoughts: even my 'complete' test models were printed in four parts (body with suspension, floor, brake gear and buffers) in order to make selective use of gravity However, the brake lever exhibited the exact same issues as in the earlier photograph and is a component that is difficult to perfect even if printed as a separate part. The link with Brassmasters does enable the buyer to buy (almost) everything in one place: brass subframe and a body which includes buffers (for use with either printed heads or own springs and metal heads) plus axlebox/spring assemblies. Alternative buffers (plain - the kits include ribbed) and axleboxes (curved base -  the kits include the rectangular 4S) are also available from Brassmasters. It would be great to be able to supply steel buffer heads and springs too if a supplier could be found.

 

I have far more designs of axleboxes and springs designed and test printed that could be made available but will otherwise wait for me to draw a wagon that needs them! I also have some other ideas on another approach to the running gear that came out of something else, and made possible by a newer resin. This would also use separate axlebox/spring assemblies, I just need to find the time to test the theory!

[billbedford]

40 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There is of course nothing to stop one from trashing the printed running gear, if suitable replacement axlebox / spring units are available, in whitemetal or whatever. (Which reminds me I should push on with that lowside wagon.)

 

It is entirly possible to produce prints with different variations. I have one loco body that has tweleve listed. The problem really is knowing exactly which variation of axleboes/springs/brakes and buffers were used on each diagram of wagon. Also there is the logistical problem of dealing with such an extended range. 

 

I've recently been thing about the LNWR D.67 van. They were built in 1903 with either a horizontal vacuum cyinder and single sided brake lever working on one shoe, or with just the single sided lever. Before the grouping some of them must have been double sided brakes. Also at some point the brake cylinders would have been swapped for vertical acting ones.  So that's at least four brake arrangements to provide on what looks like a 'simple'

van.