More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Penlan said:

As I have circa 200 wagons with known liveries

 

3 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Ah, I only have about 150 coal wagons so I can justify building a few more!

 

I'm feeling less embarrassed by failure to complete and engine yet.

 

4 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I have only a few Midland wagons and do not need many more.

 

I too occasionally accidentally say the opposite of what I mean.

 

[Rowsley17D]

4 hours ago, Penlan said:

Typically fictitious, this one, a tribute to John Degg and Bill Wood who built 'Hartwell',  the origins of Penlan.

 

Are there any info/photos on the net of this? I know after it was completed it was sold(?) and altered. I lived a couple a couple of miles from Hartington on which it was based.

[Dave Hunt]

On Bob Essery's Dewsbury layout there were quite a few fictitious wagons featuring the names of friends who had contributed in some way to its construction. Unfortunately I don't know what happened to them as when I was dealing with Bob's estate they were nowhere to be seen.

 

Dave

[wagonman]

On 05/06/2023 at 22:25, corneliuslundie said:

I have recently unashamedly painted and lettered a wagon in a fictitious coal merchant's livery since he operated at a fictitious station I am modelling (though as accurate in terms of style etc as possible). Many of us do that as very few of us have room for a real station (I liked Market Bosworth at Crewe yesterday but even there a small amount of compression was needed. And even Faringdon has the gardens which are "typical" rather than accurate representations. After all, if Pendon can do it so can we.

Jonathan

 

The Cwmtowy Mineral Railway, which for some unaccountable reason was never built, would have increased the potential trade for the real local coal merchants in Llandovery. I have therefore granted one of them possession of a secondhand coal wagon (aren't I kind). The merchant in question was Mary Jones, the figure on the right in the photo.

 

[Penlan]

18 hours ago, Rowsley17D said:

Are there any info/photos on the net of this? I know after it was completed it was sold(?) and altered. I lived a couple a couple of miles from Hartington on which it was based.

There were a number of photo's of Hartwell on a earlier rendition of RMweb, though lost long ago in the upgrades.
Hartwell was sold to me after the Wigan Show in 2003 (I think) and brought back down to west Cornwall, where I did some minor alterations to the layout, including moving the signal box and Goods shed, realigning some of the track, doubling the track over the viaduct etc., plus making the three centre boards wider by 6" and adding a further 3' scenic section to one end. 
It was exhibited at major shows as Penlan until 2014, the last show being at Cardiff.
The layout is now a roundy-roundy in my 'attic' room. 
The main tracks through he platforms etc., have been in place for 33 - 34 years.
I have a collection of photo's of the layout, in both phases, as Hartwell and Penlan.
here's a couple of comparison photo's..
Hartwell, then Penlan - The Penlan signal box is now out of sight on the other side of the tracks in the bottom RH corner, which gave the signalman a much better view in either direction.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Penlan

[Rowsley17D]

56 minutes ago, Penlan said:

There were a number of photo's of Hartwell on a earlier rendition of RMweb, though lost long ago in the upgrades.
Hartwell was sold to me after the Wigan Show in 2003 (I think) and brought back down to west Cornwall, where I did some minor alterations to the layout, including moving the signal box and Goods shed, realigning some of the track, doubling the track over the viaduct etc., plus making the three centre boards wider by 6" and adding a further 3' scenic section to one end. 
It was exhibited at major shows as Penlan until 2014, the last show being at Cardiff.
The layout is now a roundy-roundy in my 'attic' room. 
The main tracks through he platforms etc., have been in place for 33 - 34 years.
I have a collection of photo's of the layout, in both phases, as Hartwell and Penlan.
here's a couple of comparison photo's..
Hartwell, then Penlan - The Penlan signal box is now out of sight on the other side of the tracks in the bottom RH corner, which gave the signalman a much better view in either direction.

 

Nice to see it again. My parents were very friendly with Robbo Robinson, wife and daughter who I believe was the last(?) at Hartington or at least very near the end. He used to be at Penrith but he took part in a strike and moved to Hartington for his trouble. Few Union Laws in those days! His sons worked out of Buxton MPD.

[Compound2632]

Midland Railway use of the Morton brake again. 

 

As previously mentioned, in early 1905 the Morton brakes was adopted for new construction, except for wagons with bottom doors. Initially the arrangement used was the simple cam on both sides, with both brake levers at the same end of the wagon and brake blocks only on the side with the lever facing the customary right-hand end of the wagon. From the autumn of 1907, this was changed to the reversing cam on the offside, so the brake levers faced opposite corners of the wagon. From around mid-1909, the Morton brake was abandoned in favour of independent eitherside brakes.

 

We've discussed evidence for the Morton brake fitted to lowside wagons and covered goods wagons in this period. The tell-tale is that on both sides of the wagon, there was a single vee-hanger mounted on the rear face of the solebar, supporting the cross-shaft. I've been going through my notes on cattle wagons and of course realised that several hundred were built in this period. The 200 wagons of lots 606 and 634 were built from April / May 1905 onwards, with the last built probably in mid 1907; these are therefore candidates for the left-lever Morton brake; lot 681, just 50 vehicles, started in September / October 1907, may be candidates for the reversing-cam Morton brake, whereas lot 715 onwards, built from March 1909, might have independent eitherside brakes. On the other hand, these might have come in with lot 769 of 1911, which was to a new drawing.

 

Surveying the photos of large cattle wagons in Midland Wagons, Plate 255 shows a wagon with single vee-hanger and cross-shaft. It's not a very clear photo, but I think one can see the left-facing lever on the far side of the wagon, at a steeper angle than the lever on the near side, since that has been pushed down to apply the brake.

 

Plate 253 shows a brand-new, un-lime-washed wagon in a photo dated 26 November 1909

 

 

[Embedded link to DY9164 at the Derby Registers pages of the MRS website.]

 

This is presumably one of the very last of lot 715 or earliest of lot 729 (entered in the lot list with date 9 Oct 1909); it clearly does not have a cross-shaft; unfortunately the angle is such that the brakes on the far side are not visible but it seems probable that this is an example of independent eitherside brakes.

 

The D298 calf vans were also built in this period, the first six being to lot 697 dated Jan 1908, the remaing five being to lots 719 and 732 of 1909. Plate 245, an official of No. 17884, and the K. Fox drawing made from Drg. 2957, both have the Morton brake with reversing cam on the offside; this is just visible in Plate 245, where it has been pushed down to apply the brake. One could infer from cattle wagon No. 17902 in the above photo, that the second and third lots may have been built with independent eitherside brakes.

 

The final batch of Midland cattle wagons, really the first of the LMS D1661 wagons, lot 987, reverted to the Morton brake. Plate 258 shows the reversing-cam side of No. 4203 in 1957. Curiously, the lever is of the curved type used in 1907.

[corneliuslundie]

Since you have raised the subject of cattle wagons, can you clarify something?

This is a BCR cattle wagon acquired, almost certainly second hand. Is it ex MR as I have seen stated? If so it cannot have been very old when sold as it has independent either side brakes, I am pretty sure. Or is it a vehicle built to a similar style by a private  builder?

 

As there are subtle differences from all the drawings I have seen I tend to favour the latter. but I may well be wrong.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

As there are subtle differences from all the drawings I have seen I tend to favour the latter.

 

I think it's a knock-off job. As you observe, it has some differences, of which the most notable is that there are only two gaps in the side planking, either side of the bottom plank (As did the last Midiland / first LMS ones, but with different framing), whereas the genuine article had a gap between every plank. The M&SWJR had some knock-offs built by the Midland RC&W Co. in 1896 but they were different again, and had steel underframes. These BCR ones copy the 1905 Midland design in having a lower side rail and two longitudinal bars.

 

What does that oval plate on the solebar say?

 

When did the BCR get these? Presumably they weren't new?

[MrWolf]

The Bishop's Castle had a couple of ex PO iron minks, wagons from here there and everywhere, plus they built quite a few of their own having had a measure up of visiting wagons. The name Beddoes crops up quite a bit as doing wagon and carriage maintenance and rebuilds. There's also some pictures of PO wagons lettered "Beddoes" as well. I'll have a look and see if I can find further information.

 

Ex BCR van behind Eaton station where it had served as a shed for many years.

Edited June 7, 2023 by MrWolf

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

I don't have a date - nothing is that easy with the BCR - but they were a second generation of cattle wagons. I suspect around the turn of the century. The first generation is even more interesting as having ends with the same open top as the sides, but no photograph I have seen shows any underframe. I have to admit that for the club BCR 7 mm/ft layout we have cheated and used Slaters Midland kits as we need half a dozen - more than the BCR had of anything else.

And thanks for the photo of the van body. I have a drawing which has Harold Morgan's name on it, but I am not sure he drew it, and it only has part of the end so I had to guess from known dimensions. I showed my model a while ago on my thread in the Railways of Wales section - and was told I had painted it the wrong colour. I went by the colour of the cattle wagons but it was suggested that the vans were brown.

I haven't does a BEDDOES PO wagon yet but it is on my list. The name is quite common in the area, as is Bowen who also had a wagon, which I have modelled - more or less. Of course I couldn't resist modelling the one-plank wagon they had just built and painted.

Sorry to take this so far off topic.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

No. 55 at Bishops Castle in 1932:

 

 

 

[Embedded link to SmugMug gallery.]

 

I had meant to comment on the RCH 1923-style oil axleboxes and rather chunky self-contained buffers. i suppose those might be the fruit of renovation.

 

Somebody should have mentioned to Mr Beddoes or whoever was responsible for No. 59 the merits of having a flat surface on which to assemble your wagon kit.

 

50 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

Ex BCR van behind Eaton station where it had served as a shed for many years.

 

 

[Embedded link to SmugMug gallery.]

 

It has something of the look of a L&Y D3 covered goods wagon, with the roof hatch on the side away from the railway.

 

Plowden, 1936:

 

 

[Embedded link to SmugMug gallery.]

 

Three Midland lowside wagons, all with oil axleboxes and sprung door controllers. The outer two have a pair but the middle wagon has just one - is this the elusive D818?

 

A couple of antique cattle vans can be seen in this postcard view of Bishops Castle station:

 

 

[Oswestry Borderland Heritage website, photo attributed to Richard Newcombe.]

 

See also this topic:

 

 

Especially a post by @corneliuslundie which says the BCR cattle wagons were built by S.J. Claye, of Long Eaton, where Midland cattle wagons would be what you's see. S.J. Claye built 200 cattle wagons for the Midland in 1867 but the design of the body framing was probably a bit different then. Wagons built by Metropolitan in 1869 had X-shaped frames bracing on the sides and ends. The classic Midland style dares from Drgs. 100 and 101 of December 1874, short and long  respectively, to which designs Gloucester built 250 in 1875, before production moved in-house to the new Litchurch Lane works. So I don't think it's quite a case of S.J. Claye blowing the dust off 50-year-old drawings!

[corneliuslundie]

I had said then S J Claye but have more recently become more suspicious. Hence my question.

Many thanks for the photo of Bishops Castle. I have several photos with the earlier cattle wagons in but that it the nearest I have seen to one showing the underframe - though when I blew it up there was not much detail.

Re the second photo of a grounded van body at Eaton station, it looks very much like the drawing I mentioned but that shows no sign of a door in the roof.

 

 

 

BTW the wagon built at the BCR was No. 58 which appears to have been built properly on a sheet of plate glass [Lucas, K: "The Bishop's Castle Railway. A pictorial presentation" (BCR, 2007) p14]. It looks as though No, 59 must have been left out in the rain..

And to get the thread nearer to back on topic, a fantasy PO wagon I built for the layout. If the railway had reached Montgomery then surely Bunners would have had some wagons:

 

I think we had better get back to Midland opens.

Jonathan

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

And to get the thread nearer to back on topic, a fantasy PO wagon I built for the layout. If the railway had reached Montgomery then surely Bunners would have had some wagons:

 

Too late - it had moved on!

 

2 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I think we had better get back to Midland opens.

 

 

[Shameless link to post in Castle Aching.]

 

One can't have too much of a good thing. Cadbury, Bournville.

[corneliuslundie]

Most unrealistic. Where are the LNWR and GWR wagons?

But seriously, yes pre-WW1 probably not an uncommon sight to see most or all of the wagons belonging to the "home" company. Only wagons bringing loads from other areas would have been from other companies. Move to 1919 and it would have been completely different.

A great photo.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

A great photo.

 

A number of these wagons can be seen to have the additional vertical end strap between the end pillars, both outside and inside. This feature was dropped from new construction sometime between c. 1890 and 1894 and gradually disappeared as ends were re-planked, so seems to have disappeared by the Great War. What is interesting, though, is that the wagon second from the left has this feature and oil axleboxes, which were introduced in 1902 for new construction. This demonstrates that the old 8A grease axleboxes were being phased out and replaced with oil axleboxes; maybe routinely as wagons passed through the works.

[Compound2632]

Here's a thing - a D818 low side wagon that really is such rather than a misidentified D305 to Drg. 3208 - observe the space between the outer axleguard wing washer plates and the headstock strap-bolts:

 

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/rolling-stock/lmsr/hA87EF28F#ha87f6502

 

[RCTS NB01069, M50440].

 

It's an 8 ton one with single Monarch door controller; hence, I think, one of the 200 to Lot 915 not one of the 350 to Lot 905 which may or may not have been built as 10 ton wagons with a pair of Monarch door controllers.

 

That brings the total of photos of D818 wagons known to me up to three.

[Grahams]

On 07/06/2023 at 20:40, Compound2632 said:

Three Midland lowside wagons, all with oil axleboxes and sprung door controllers. The outer two have a pair but the middle wagon has just one - is this the elusive D818?

I believe you have bagged a D818 Stephen!

I'm intimately familiar with the corners of D305 and D818, having spent most of yesterday building D305 corners. The gap between the end knee and the end of the end planks on the D818 is larger due to the 5" wider overall width of the wagon. The 2.5“ extra width per side is gained entirely between the end knee and the side of the wagon.

Details from the two drawings are attached. 

The exact measurements are:

D305 2" from side of knee to end of end planks

D818 4 5/8" from side of knee to end of end planks (note the side sheets of the D818 are 1/8" thinner) 

On the end of the nearest and farthest wagons of D305, the knee is close to the end of the end planks. On the middle wagon, there is a clear gap between the end knee and the side of the wagon.

So, as well as the evidence of the single vs double door controllers, I would say that the end knee/side distance is conclusive.

Good spot! 

[Grahams]

On 11/06/2023 at 15:46, Compound2632 said:

Here's a thing - a D818 low side wagon that really is such rather than a misidentified D305 to Drg. 3208 - observe the space between the outer axleguard wing washer plates and the headstock strap-bolts:

Yes, a very good identification feature and another good spot. That wagon seems to have bearing springs with 9 plates, which is on Drg 4340 for Lot 905 but there is an added note which says Lots 905 and 915 had 12 plates. I'm not sure what "3.B." means at the start of that note.

[corneliuslundie]

Sorry to go off topic again but thought I should correct what I said earlier about BCR cattle wagons.

Albyn Austin has confirmed the builder to be as I originally said, namely S J Claye.

And re Midland D818, subtly different shapes to the catches holding the sides in those two drawings. Probably a bit over the top to try to show the different in 4 mm.

Jonathan

 

 

[Dave Hunt]

1 hour ago, Grahams said:

I'm not sure what "3.B." means at the start of that note.

 

The type of pencil used?

😋

 

Dave

[MrWolf]

Could it be a drawing version and revision number? 

[Grahams]

31 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

The type of pencil used?

🤣 Almost certainly! 

The note was added in pencil first because it can be seen. 

I can just hear the instruction from the senior draughtsman to the young apprentice 

"Add that 3B note in pen lad" 

[Grahams]

21 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

Could it be a drawing version and revision number? 

Yes it could be but I don't see any other revisions so noted. I only wish there were a box on the drawings for all the revisions but unfortunately they didn't use that method. 

[kitpw]

3 hours ago, Grahams said:

Yes it could be but I don't see any other revisions so noted. I only wish there were a box on the drawings for all the revisions but unfortunately they didn't use that method. 

The number/letter grading scale for pencils was introduced "by the beginning of the C20th" - that's the best date offered when I looked it up a while ago. Before that time a double letter system was in use HH, BB etc.  The derivation of the H & B grading is uncertain - some say H for Haut (High hardness) and B for Bas (Low hardness) whilst other explanations are H for hard and B for black. If the drawing is earlier than 1900, I suspect 3B is not the pencil but could, I suppose, be some kind of revision designation.  Graphite (from Cumbria/Derwent) was a protected material for a long time as it was used in making British canon balls which consequently had a longer range than anybody's else's balls - which this story probably is*. Anyway, in about 1795 Conte in France developed a formulation of graphite/clay which gave better control of hardness and that formulatiion is still used now.  I agree about the revision "box" - that would have been helpful. My grandfather told me that in his drawing office (Vickers, Crayford, WW1 and before) technicians/engineers designed stuff in pencil (no H or B mentioned) and the drawing was handed to the "girl tracers" to be turned into ink drawings on linen.  I imagine this practice was widespread in engineering drawing offices of the period (but maybe subject to another asterisk).

 

*or maybe not... "The stories about graphite go back to about 1500 when an enormous deposit of graphite was discovered in the Borrowdale Parish in England. One of its first uses was as a refractory material to line molds for cannon balls, which resulted in rounder, smoother ammunition that could be fired farther. This better way of making the balls contributed to the growing superiority of the English Navy back then." https://egcgraphite.com.