More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Symington Port? A long established port producer.

[Dave Hunt]

Ah, at first I thought that it was evidence that the Poles made port as it looked like Szcwimgztlz port.

 

Dave

[Buhar]

Any ideas about this wagon spotted at the edge of a photo of a coal tank still in LNWR livery (not that unusual).  The cupboard doors indicate Scots origins, but not conclusively.  It looks quite antiquated but has been given LMS grey.  Single brake block perhaps and possibly a dumb buffer conversion.  Serious strengthening on the end door that has a hinging method I can't remember seeing before.  It can't be laden that high with coal, are those small sacks?

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Buhar said:

Any ideas about this wagon

 

Well, if it's not one of yours it must be from the opposition.

[MarcD]

It's a Cally 8t mineral I'm in the process of retooling the kit.

Marc

[phil_sutters]

On 03/10/2023 at 12:11, Penlan said:

Stored in 'Bonded Warehouses/Stores' in large Cities etc., before local distribution to agents etc.,

I know not what was stored in this one, but even relatively small towns may have had bonded stores. This local wholesaler's store is close to Highbridge Wharf and the GWR station. https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3681988

Edited October 7, 2023 by phil_sutters

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, MarcD said:

It's a Cally 8t mineral

 

I suspected something of the sort - if @Buhar didn't recognise it as G&SW, it must necessarily be Caledonian.

[turbos]

1 hour ago, Buhar said:

Any ideas about this wagon 

CR Diagram 46 8 ton mineral wagon.

I completed a couple of 4mm True Line Models kits of these wagons in May this year.

Brian.

[Wagon nut]

On 25/09/2023 at 14:11, Rail-Online said:

Mid to late 1930s at, what I assume to be the exchange sidings.  The loco became No 18 in May 1934.

 

Tony

Great shot - thanks Those West Cannock wagons seem to have travelled well in the home counties, so I feel the white Rotring ink coming out again at some point...

 

[Nick Lawson]

@Compound2632 Wagon numbers - I expect you already have this, but just in case: Midland Locomotives (E & J) vol 4 plate 36 - the 3 plank wagon in the background. I can't make out the number but persons with better eyesight will.

 

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, Nick Lawson said:

@Compound2632 Wagon numbers - I expect you already have this, but just in case: Midland Locomotives (E & J) vol 4 plate 36 - the 3 plank wagon in the background. I can't make out the number but persons with better eyesight will.

 

 

Any advance on 31032? The numberplate is left of centre and together with cast iron rather than wooden brake blocks this indicate a wagon to Drg. 213 of lot 66, 84, 134, or 164. 

 

It's loaded with a couple of large casks - centre line level with the top of the wagon side so 3' 6" at the bilge or a bit less if sitting on a rope coil. A Burton butt was 2' 9" at the bilge but these could well not be beer casks. One is lengthways and the other crossways.

 

Someone might be able to identify the location - there's a building behind that might be part of a goods station or part of the workshop of a principal engine shed, and a high retaining wall beyond that.

 

The main subject is 1142 Class 0-6-0 No. 1218, pre-1903 (smokebox lampiron) and apparently unlined, suggesting c. 1900. The allocations lists in Summerson give No. 1218 as a Wellingborough engine at this time, which maybe helps with identifying the location as somewhere between Leeds and London!

 

The photo is credited NRM but is not a Derby official (no corresponding entry in the Derby Registers).

Edited October 11, 2023 by Compound2632

[WFPettigrew]

I have a plea for help or a pointer in the right direction please.

 

A small group of members of the Cumbrian Railways Association including myself have been trying to piece together the history of some of the Furness Railway wagons that didn't make it into LMS ownership, and so predate the Diagram Book drawn up in the dying days of the pre-grouping company. 

 

There were two types that were bogie wagons with US connections - the two "jumbo" ore hoppers that @MarcD has models for, and some "tubular frame" bogie bolsters used for carrying newly made rails from Barrow steelworks to the docks for export.  These latter had frames made of tubes, rather obviously, which were threaded so could be put together by someone knowledgable about plumbing or pipe-fitting, but did have the pitfall that they could unscrew themselves.... 

 

One of the means of cross-referencing the rather sparse information about FR wagons has been the RCH 1904 Instructions, which have a section listing the "special" wagons of each pre-grouping company which could carry loads of "unusual bulk or weight".  

 

Does anyone know if there are any later versions of this document, and can anyone either tell me where to find them, or even better does anyone have a copy and could share a scan of the page about the FR?  I have heard that the RCH stopped publishing this list perhaps after 1906 so there may not be much data out there, but can anyone enlighten please?

 

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

Neil 

 

 

[Rail-Online]

What I thought was an interesting routing of CLC wagons from Liverpool Docks (Brunswick) to MR Skipton.

Via Bredbury and Chinley if you have problem in reading them......

 

Cheers Tony

[WFPettigrew]

16 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

Liverpool Docks (Brunswick) to MR Skipton.

Via Bredbury and Chinley

 

If ever there was evidence that the originating party would try and keep the load "in house" (or in the house of one of a joint line's owning parties) even if that meant sending it on a longer route.

 

By a very very rough calculation usins the Google Maps measuring tool, the route via Chinley (then Sheffield and Leeds) would be at least 130 miles whereas if they had passed the traffc onto the LYR at Manchester, you'd be looking at 90 miles tops. 

 

That said, keeping it in one company would have probably reduced the delays handing traffic from one company to another at exchange yards, and so this might not have been a significantly slower journey?

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

What I thought was an interesting routing of CLC wagons from Liverpool Docks (Brunswick) to MR Skipton.

Via Bredbury and Chinley if you have problem in reading them......

 

They weren't very diligent about writing the truck numbers in were they?

 

Of course from Brunswick, CLC and Midland round via Sheffield and Leeds to Skipton is the natural route, keeping the goods on Midland lines. But if the consignment had been loaded at Sandon & Canada Docks or Alexandra Docks, or Huskisson Goods, would the route have been over the CLC Southport line, Chinley, etc., or by Midland goods train over the L&Y to Hellifield?

 

I suppose Bredbury is mentioned because it was the point of junction between the CLC proper and the Sheffield & Midland Joint line:

 

 

[Embedded link to Wikimedia Commons.]

Edited October 11, 2023 by Compound2632

[MarcD]

Neil,

The tubeiler wagons didn't just end up on the Furness, the LYR tried some and some ended up in Sydney on the NSWGR. I have drawing and photos.

Marc

[MR Chuffer]

29 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Huskisson Goods,

As was discussed upthread, Huskisson picking up at Aintree, Lostock and Blackburn for Hellifield and beyond was a Midland turn over L&Y metals, and the reverse.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, MR Chuffer said:

As was discussed upthread, Huskisson picking up at Aintree, Lostock and Blackburn for Hellifield and beyond was a Midland turn over L&Y metals, and the reverse.

 

Yes indeed. I was taking it for granted that everyone would have that discussion in mind! There would, though, I suppose, have been a working south from the northern dock for traffic to destinations no further north than Sheffield, via Bredbury and Chinley. 

 

But another question posed by these CLC labels for traffic from Brunswick to Skipton is whether these wagons (CLC or back-loaded Midland) were worked out in a Midland goods train or a CLC goods train with subsequent re-marshalling.

[65179]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes indeed. I was taking it for granted that everyone would have that discussion in mind! There would, though, I suppose, have been a working south from the northern dock for traffic to destinations no further north than Sheffield, via Bredbury and Chinley. 

 

But another question posed by these CLC labels for traffic from Brunswick to Skipton is whether these wagons (CLC or back-loaded Midland) were worked out in a Midland goods train or a CLC goods train with subsequent re-marshalling.

 

Interesting question. I tried replying to your earlier post but it seems to have disappeared in the ether. That was going to say that I found it interesting that it specified Bredbury rather than the then likely re-marshalling point of Heaton Mersey. Normally with a MR era poser it's possible to extrapolate back from the late LMS and CLC/early BR period, so set in stone were some of the patterns of working. However here the wagon labels appear to pre-date the completion of the 1902 Disley cut-off and the building of Gowhole Yard, which would have seen many changes to the pattern of working.  However there was at one time a Midland shed at Brunswick and through working from the Midland Division proper did persist into later years. 

 

I wonder if later labels would have specified the rather more vague Cheadle (Jct) rather than Bredbury to allow wagons to come off the CLC either at Cheadle Exchange Sidings or via Bredbury?

 

Simon

Edited October 11, 2023 by 65179

[Compound2632]

55 minutes ago, 65179 said:

However there was at one time a Midland shed at Brunswick and through working from the Midland Division proper did persist into later years. 

 

Rather to my surprise on looking at Brunswick's 1902 allocation* I see no goods engines - the allocation was:

• 1282 Class 2-4-0s Nos. 1310 & 1311
• 1312 Class 4-4-0s Nos. 1312-15 / 17 / 19
• 1853 Class 4-2-2s Nos. 1863-66
• 0-4-0STs Nos 202, 1430, and 2359
• 1377 Class 0-6-0Ts Nos. 1677-79

So I suppose goods engines worked out and back from Manchester.

 

*I have a spreadsheet compiled from the allocation tables in Summerson.

[Compound2632]

Off to the Midland Railway Society's stand at the Great Electric Train Show in Milton Keynes tomorrow early; @Grahams will be there with one of his really Big Wagons. I've not been to this show before so don't know what to expect - lots of OHLE (the Midland's entree) and third / fourth rail stuff, I suppose?

 

Thursday was a Kew day - I've been distracted into S&DJR carriage & wagonry but I did spend a bit more time with the Midland PO registers. @jamie92208, have you already got Reg. Nos. 25664-7 (16 & 26 Dec 1898); Thos. Murgatroyd, Skipton, Nos. 388-391, side & bottom doors, 14' 7" inside length x 7' 0" inside width x 3' 6" deep, doors 2' 11" tall (6 planks with 5-plank doors) built by J.B. Beadman & Co.? There was a note for these four wagons: coke crate 2' 4". My guess is that that refers to the coke raves extending above the 3' 6" top of the side proper.

 

Thomas Murgatroyd is an acquaintance of mine from the Skipton Minerals Inwards Ledger but since I've only got up to March 1897, I'm too early for these Beadman wagons, though I've seen earlier Beadman wagons of his. 

 

In the six months October 1897 - March 1898, Murgatroyd received 152 wagonloads of coal - 1,020 ton 8 cwt - the vast majority from Houghton Main Colliery, Darfield, though he occasionally dealt with Whitwood Colliery, Wakefield, and Garforth Colliery, Leeds. of the 152 wagonloads, 39 were Midland wagons, 44 Houghton Main wagons, and 22 his own wagons, the balance being other collieries or factors. One such is recorded as WM, with low numbers - 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 15, always coming from Houghton Main. Garforth coal always came in the Colliery's own wagons, whereas Whitwood coal came in Midland wagons, except for two noted as B - Nos. 523 and 2395, apparently a large fleet. There is no sign of Murgatroyd dealing in coke - or much coke coming into Skipton by rail; the town's gasworks must have satisfied local demand, or it came in by the canal.

 

Murgatroyd's own wagons in this six-month period are all numbered in the range 279 - 357; of the 20 numbers recorded, four appear twice. The numbers recorded in the first three Midland PO registers - Reg. Nos. 1 - 24,000 - are all in the range 279-345, apart from Nos. 250-1 of 1888, built by Harrison & Camm, with many built in 1891:

• 10 10 ton wagons Nos. 279-284, 296-300, built by Airdale
• 10 8 ton wagons Nos. 285, 301-309, built by Lancaster
• 10 10 ton wagons Nos. 285 [sic], 286, 288-295, built by Beadman

Beadman built a further 16 wagons for Murgatroyd in the mid-1890s, Nos. 310-319, 340-345. 

 

Of all these, the Skipton ledger records:

Airedale: 279, 282, 284, 297, 299

Lancaster: 306, 309

Beadman: 317, 343, 344

Other: 324, 331, 352, 353, 355, 357, 361, 398 

 

The "others" must have been registered with a different company, perhaps the local company to where they were built - e.g. the L&Y for Charles Roberts.

 

Curious that No. 398 was out and about a before Nos. 388-391 were built; of course it could be an error on the part of the ledger clerk, or on my part when transcribing - and of course the same is true of any of these numbers!

 

A final curiosity is the two Beadman 10 ton wagons, Midland Reg. Nos. 8083/4, registered one to S.H. Murgatroyd and the other to B.E. Murgatroyd, both of Skipton and noted in the transcript i have as being T. Murgatroyd's daughters; both wagons are No. 1.

 

[Rail-Online]

Another corner of a neg D299. I think this is 95880. What is interesting is it is out on the main GNR main line at Marshmoor with a load of wicker baskets. This must have been a fire risk as sparks or hot coals could easily set them alight - I would have expected this load to be sheeted.  The GWR wagon behind is similar, loaded with sacks of something (spuds?), again no sheet despite a sheet bar....

 

Tony

Edited October 13, 2023 by Rail-Online

[jamie92208]

Thanks very much for that @Compound2632.  Murgatroyds were a well known family in Skipton.  I can't find my copy of the 2nd edition of "limestone Industries of the Yorkshire Dales" by David Johnston.  He overs the quarrying,lime burning families of Skipton in detail as they were usually the coal importers.  I will add those Beadman wagons to my spreadsheet.

 

Jamie

[corneliuslundie]

Could the coke rails possibly have been from traffic out of the gasworks?

And the wagons belonging to the daughters. A way of spreading financial risk perhaps?

Jonathan

[Chrisbr]

9 hours ago, Rail-Online said:

Another corner of a neg D299. I think this is 95880. What is interesting is it is out on the main GNR main line at Marshmoor with a load of wicker baskets. This must have been a fire risk as sparks or hot coals could easily set them alight - I would have expected this load to be sheeted.  The GWR wagon behind is similar, loaded with sacks of something (spuds?), again no sheet despite a sheet bar....

Tony, is there a date for this photo please?

 

Chris