More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[corneliuslundie]

Don't worry if life gets in the way of modelling. After all modelling is never finished anyway, as there are always "improvements" to make, more kits to build etc etc. So you will take fractionally longer to finish that wagon. But you still have the project to look forward to.

And I have learned so much from this thread, not just your posts but all the other expertise which has ben offered - even though I REALLY do not need another Midland open.

Jonathan

[Chas Levin]

3 hours ago, Nick C said:

1613, according to the OED - compared with ~1400 for the older meaning. So it's been around a fair while, even by the standards of this thread...

 

Funnily enough, I've questioned this particular change of use before (it irks me more than many others, for some reason) and I'd been told before that it's a very old form of usage... but I cannot recall ever hearing it used to mean 'supervised' or 'keeping an eye on' until very recently - easily less than a decade.

I'd conclude that while it had been used that way in previous ages, that meaning had fallen into desuetude until comparatively recent times.

There's another one, by the way, and that one actually describes itself: the phrase 'fallen into desuetude' has, by and large, fallen into desuetude! 😂🤣

I'll get my coat... 🚶‍♂️

Edited November 7, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Chas Levin said:

There's another one, by the way, and that one actually describes itself: the phrase 'fallen into desuetude' has, by and large, fallen into desuetude! 😂🤣

I'll get my coat... 🚶‍♂️

 

Largely, I suspect, because people assume it means having stepped in something unpleasant whilst wearing one's best suede shoes...

[MrWolf]

11 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

You can wear underpants in at least 4 different ways prior to washing in order to extend their serviceable usage 😉

 

But only if you're single and intend to remain so. 😄

[MrWolf]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Largely, I suspect, because people assume it means having stepped in something unpleasant whilst wearing one's best suede shoes...

 

Oddly, a phrase used by Midlands schoolboys forty years ago to describe doing just that, as in: "Bogger! I've trud in a suede!"

[57xx]

14 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Sniping, it's called (rather unpleasantly I feel), where you use a third party website to send a in a bid a few seconds before the auction ends, so that other bidders don't have time to respond... unless they're sniping too, but with an even shorter lead time.

 

It doesn't have to be done using a 3rd party program/site. In fact the term arose before the sites existed when people did it the way I still do it, manually. The sites just automated the process and cut down the timing of the bids.

I see it as fair game. The way the ebay bid process works, people should be putting in the maximum they are prepared to pay and let ebay automation increase their bids up to that amount. But people get obsessed about winning and start ramping up their maximum bid just to win at all costs (on a lot of items I have bid on in the past, sometimes paying more than you can buy the items brand new!). I work out what I'm prepared to pay for something, wait until the last few seconds to put my bid in, if someone has a higher max and I get outbid automatically, that is fine, I put the maximum I wanted to pay for the item, someone put in a higher maximum. It also removes any temptation from myself deciding to up my maximum and get dragged into the sillyness.

[Andy Vincent]

On 07/11/2023 at 09:14, Compound2632 said:

and last but by no means least, sheer bone-idleness.

At least now I don't feel quite so bad about the delay in getting you the promised Huntley & Palmers variation!

 

The last few months were somewhat derailed by the demands of getting Butley Mills to Uckfield. Whilst that renovation is nowhere near finished, I can now take a rather more balanced approach to competing activities! On that note, Brassmasters should have the (side and) end door Charles Roberts wagon body at Warley as well as further stock of the side door version. The scale of the demand for the latter came as a major surprise to us so steps have been taken . . .  It will be interesting to see if interest in Charles Roberts wagons increases even further when the Lightmoor book comes out in the spring.

[mikeallerton]

35 minutes ago, Andy Vincent said:

 Brassmasters should have the (side and) end door Charles Roberts wagon body .......

 

Now Andy, if you were to do the 1897 Charles Roberts 5 plank side door, that would be really interesting ... I've recently discovered a need for a few.

[Andy Vincent]

On 08/11/2023 at 11:30, mikeallerton said:

1897 Charles Roberts 5 plank side door

Does anyone know of any photographs of these? It predates the period when the works started to routinely take photographs. The nearest I have seen is the 1896 Charles Roberts advert which shows a 6 plank wagon (with Ellis axleboxes). A scan of some of my books has yet to turn up a 5 plank despite some contemporary references that they existed.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

Does anyone know of any photographs of these? It predates the period when the works started to routinely take photographs. The nearest I have seen is the 1896 Charles Roberts advert which shows a 6 plank wagon (with Ellis axleboxes). A scan of some of my books has yet to turn up a 5 plank despite some contemporary references that they existed.

 

From my partial transcript* of Vols. 3, 4, and 5 of the Midland PO Wagon Registers, registrations 16001 - 40000, late 1894 to early 1903, the only potential candidates i can find are a pair of 10 ton wagons, registrations 23131/2 of 14 Jan 1898, Wm Spink, Hunslet, No. 6 and Jno Nicholson, Hunslet, No. 17, and another 10 ton wagon, registration 23463 of 19 Feb 1898, Tho. White, Manton, No. 1. All three have internal dimensions 14' 7" x 7' 0" x 3' 6" deep; the first two have side and bottom doors, with side doors 2' 11" tall whereas the third has side doors only, 2' 10" tall. With 7" or 8" top planks, these do sound a bit more like 6-plank than 5-plank wagons. 

 

Otherwise, the Charles Roberts wagons in the registers are 4' 0" deep, presumably 7-plank, with batches of 50 for Hinckleton Main (14' 6" long inside), 100, 50, and 50 for Manvers Main (15' 0" long inside), all in 1898, and another 100 for Manvers Main (15' 0" long inside) and 61 for Hinckleton Main (15' 6" long inside) in 1900. 

 

There are, however, lots of square tank wagons matching the Slater's kit, for numerous customers.

 

*Approaching 25% in random chunks.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Compound2632
sp.

[MR Chuffer]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Hinkleton Main

Hickleton Main?

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

Hickleton Main?

 

Yes, my error. Correct in my spreadsheet, corrected in post.

[WFPettigrew]

32 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

lots of square tank wagons matching the Slater's kit

 

Any for Sadler and Co out of curiosity, please?

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Any for Sadler and Co out of curiosity, please?

 

No, afraid not. I also checked other builders of tank wagons - chiefly S.J. Claye and G.R. Turner - but no. Might be in the 75% I've not (yet) transcribed, or in later volumes. Any idea of date? 

 

Quite a few Charles Roberts tanks for Ellison & Mitchell, Kilnhurst, and in the first two volumes (transcription cty. Ian Pope), Brotherton & Co., Leeds. Brotherton is quite well-known, I think, but there's no mention of Ellison & Mitchell in the Lightmoor Index though there is Harry Ellison of Cleckheaton, with photo in Turton's Sixth, in connection with the Yorkshire & Lincolnshire Tar Distillers, a pie in which he had a finger. That's a livery for which Slater's provide transfers:

 

 

... though I learn to my chagrin that No. 2 was built in 1907.

 

A quick bit of googling shows that this Ellison was indeed the Ellison of Ellison & Mitchell:

https://week42.com/2017/11/29/yorkshire-tar-distillers-limited/

https://kilnhurst.dearnevalleyhistory.org.uk/article/worshipful-master-g-w-mitchell/

http://stairfootstation.co.uk/tar/

https://conisbroughanddenabyhistory.org.uk/article/the-national-coal-strike-how-the-local-firms-stand/

He even has a road named after him, apparently in an estate built on the site of his works, after the removal of several feet of contaminated soil.

 

[Compound2632]

On 07/11/2023 at 09:14, Compound2632 said:

        7.  ditto printer before the need to print becomes pressing;

 

Sorted. I realised I had to press the button on the printer and then the button on the router. Now I jest need to remember that for next time. But no idea why it lost the WiFi connection in the first place.

[WFPettigrew]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Any idea of date?

 

Thank you for looking.  No sadly not.  

 

We know that Sadler and Co's No 9 was involved in a comedic dispute* in very early 1923, between the goods agent at Keswick vs the goods agent at Ulverston overseen by the goods manager at Barrow (who not surprisingly is more trusting of his until recently FR colleague in Ulverston than some ex CKPR bloke up in the Lakes) vs Sadlers about how laden No 9 was from Keswick to the Sadlers tar distillery near North Lonsdale Ironworks in Ulverston, and whether it had been fully discharged/cleaned out after the previous load, or not. 

 

So this wagon at least was around at the end of the pre-grouping era, but we don't know when it was built, sorry.  Nor how many other tar wagons Sadlers had on hand to ferry the gunk out of the bottom of the various local gas works and refine it into separate noxious substances at what - also somewhat amusingly - is now a campsite near Morecambe Bay.   The tar tank wagon(s) may or may not have been built by Chas Robers and may or may not have been registered by the Midland (at least you have at least some registers surviving), the NER (as Sadler HQ was Middlesborough - dunno about NER PO registers?) or the Furness (no registers survive, sob). 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

* I thought I had recounted this tale of skulduggery and officialdom on here when I bought the Slaters kit a few months back but cannot find reference in the search?  If it doesn't ring bells and there is interest to know more, let me know.. 

[jamie92208]

I remember you telling the tale but not where. 

 

Jamie

[Buhar]

I recalled it too and found it here with a bit more detail than you gave this time.

Alan

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Buhar said:

I recalled it too and found it here with a bit more detail than you gave this time.

 

Thank you Alan, I am not going mad then...! Thought I had posted it - but it wasn't coming up on any searches I did earlier.  Bloomin' computers...!

[Compound2632]

This photograph of the slate quay at Caernarfon, possibly 1893, is on the L&NWR Society Facebook Group:

 

 

[Embedded link; the original poster, Tom Jones-Parry, has quite a gallery of evocative photograps: https://www.facebook.com/groups/381688085599512/user/1177702009/]

 

Lots of D1s and D2s and a solitary D4.* The traffic is presumably largely local, from quarry to quay; one wonders how much actually went to England by rail.

 

Of particular interest to someone who has been meaning to make some slate loads for at least the last 15 months, is how cleanly square the blocks of slates look. Not at all artisanal. How can one reproduce that in model form, with it still clearly being slate?

 

*By their planks shall ye know them.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Compound2632
sp.

[jwealleans]

The next time I'm down at Ormesby Hall, I'll take you a picture of the slate load on the layout there.   It was made by Ron Rising, who was a longtime modeller at Pendon.  It's card of a suitable colour (I assume he coloured it), cut to shape and stuck in rows in a 2 or 3 plank open.   It looks very effective although I've often wondered at the lack of dunnage or padding to avoid breakage.

Edited November 14, 2023 by jwealleans

[Nick Lawson]

On 11/11/2023 at 13:47, Compound2632 said:

A quick bit of googling shows that this Ellison was indeed the Ellison of Ellison & Mitchell

 

It happens I'm going for a Henry Ellison tar wagon, (set just received from Powsides), so from my own googling:

 

https://www.alamy.com/an-1893-illustrated-advertisment-for-a-carboline-a-coal-tar-and-eucalyptus-disinfectant-product-claimed-to-fight-against-diseases-like-cholera-typhoid-as-well-as-treating-fever-and-germs-henry-ellison-tar-distillers-in-1927-it-became-yorkshire-tar-distillers-ltd-one-of-europes-largest-chemical-manufacturersthe-firm-also-make-a-carboline-soap-which-is-impregnated-with-carboline-this-soap-is-splendid-for-scouring-scrubbing-and-cleansing-every-thing-for-all-domestic-purposes-nothing-could-be-better-another-article-manufactured-by-the-firm-is-ellisons-patent-automatic-disinfector-image397844196.html?imageid=4A5F2A76-1841-43ED-A2FF-735E3D468EEC&p=176197&pn=1&searchId=198fe70705669dd2beb47162c8aabd72&searchtype=0

 

@Compound2632Also HMRS have photos for 12T and 20T cylindrical tar wagons for E & M, registered to the Midland, but 1907 & 1910, so sadly outside your period.

 

[Compound2632]

47 minutes ago, Nick Lawson said:

It happens I'm going for a Henry Ellison tar wagon, (set just received from Powsides)

 

Interesting to know. Black, I see - presumably there is a photo? But I fear this is before my period, i.e. before Ellison went into partnership with Mitchell, or did he continue independently at Cleckheaton?

 

50 minutes ago, Nick Lawson said:

@Compound2632Also HMRS have photos for 12T and 20T cylindrical tar wagons for E & M, registered to the Midland, but 1907 & 1910, so sadly outside your period.

 

I had a look at those. rather austere, in terms of lettering. It'll be some years at the present rate before I get onto those volumes of the PO register, unless willing volunteers can be found! 

[jamie92208]

3 hours ago, jwealleans said:

The next time I'm down at Ormesby Hall, I'll take you a picture of the slate load on the layout there.   It was made by Ron Rising, who was a longtime modeller at Pendon.  It's card of a suitable colour (I assume he coloured it), cut to shape and stuck in rows in a 2 or 3 plank open.   It looks very effective although I've often wondered at the lack of dunnage or padding to avoid breakage.

My late friend Tony Bond built a gravity slate train in 7mm NG for Eastgate wharf.  He used real slate split with I believe a scalpel then cut up.  It looked great. The train was powered by a spud under the dandy wagon that carried the horse. 

 

Jamie

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by jamie92208

[jwealleans]

If anyone follows Tom Foster's OO9 work on FB, he makes very effective use of slate pieces for lineside fencing.   I suspect a whole wagon full of it would be unfeasibly heavy in 4mm, though.

Edited November 14, 2023 by jwealleans