More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks. I wonder if one reason for the LMS wagon building programme slowing was the general state of the economy, fewer wagons being needed, plus loss of business to road haulage. 

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Thanks. I wonder if one reason for the LMS wagon building programme slowing was the general state of the economy, fewer wagons being needed, plus loss of business to road haulage. 

 

i should think so. There was a bit of a decline in the total wagon stock, but only about 5,000 - 6,000.

[Compound2632]

As a break from the numerology, in the course of putting together my talk for Saturday I was staring again at a photo I've looked at often enough before, of the LNWR Windsor Street goods station in 1903: 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwra3633.htm.

I also paid more attention to the caption.

 

Now, for far too long now I've been faffing about a slate load for my Cambrian 2-plank wagon - which way round the slates were loaded, etc. There seemed to be a lack of photos of loaded wagons taken from an angle where one can see the load. 

 

 

[Crop from Warwickshire Railways lnwra3633.]

 

The Warwickshire Railways caption, based on impeccable sources, says: "a Cambrian Railways three-plank wagon with slates" - where I think the curb rail has been mistaken for a plank.

 

Anyway, to my eyes, the slates are stacked in rows leaning on the sides of the wagon, not the ends, with a gap for access in the middle. Larger slates at the far end?

 

Either that or they're bricks, as in the GW round-ended 3-plank to the left.

Edited February 15 by Compound2632

[WFPettigrew]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Anyway, to my eyes, the slates are stacked in rows leaning on the sides of the wagon, not the ends, with a gap for access in the middle. Larger slates at the far end?

 

I think you're right. on all of this - larger slates at the near end too. 

 

So the way the Furness transported slate stacked transversely might not have been such an outlier after all!

 

I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous posts and calculations upthread about slate density, which might help confirm this is slate rather than brick by the size of the gap, if you know the maximum load of that Cambrian wagon. 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[corneliuslundie]

I can't swear that the Cambrian never had any 3-plank wagons but I have never identified any. It had hundreds of 2-plank wagons, both fixed sided and drop sided. Earlier versions were 7 ton capacity and later ones 8 tons. Only the 4- plank wagons ever got to 10 ton capacity (other than the 15 ton loco coal wagons).

Jonathan

[magmouse]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Anyway, to my eyes, the slates are stacked in rows leaning on the sides of the wagon, not the ends,

Yes - see my comment when we discussed this previously on 15 November, up-thread:

 

”the slates are less prone to breakage if stacked facing sideways. The main shocks the slates will receive in transit will be along the length of the wagon (acceleration and braking forces). The slates are better able to withstand these shocks if they are applied to the edge of the slate, rather than the face.”

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

Seeing is believing!

[magmouse]

24 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Seeing is believing!

Of course, but as you note, there are very few photos that show slate loaded in standard gauge wagons. I am happy to be proved wrong, but I am not aware of any evidence of slates being loaded with their faces towards the ends of the wagon (unless part of a packing arrangement with a small proportion of the slates facing that way to ensure a tight pack overall - you see this sometimes in pictures of narrow gauge slate wagons).

 

Nick.

[Aire Head]

Rapido have just announced Caledonian Railway D67s 10T vans today.

[Compound2632]

Some nice internal user versions there, which will delight some, I know.

 

These (or similar CR covered goods wagons) do seem to appear in photos quite often, especially post-Great War, of course.

 

1903...

 

... getting dangerously close!

[Annie]

On 16/02/2024 at 06:38, Compound2632 said:

As a break from the numerology, in the course of putting together my talk for Saturday I was staring again at a photo I've looked at often enough before, of the LNWR Windsor Street goods station in 1903: 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwra3633.htm.

I also paid more attention to the caption.

 

Now, for far too long now I've been faffing about a slate load for my Cambrian 2-plank wagon - which way round the slates were loaded, etc. There seemed to be a lack of photos of loaded wagons taken from an angle where one can see the load. 

 

 

[Crop from Warwickshire Railways lnwra3633.]

 

The Warwickshire Railways caption, based on impeccable sources, says: "a Cambrian Railways three-plank wagon with slates" - where I think the curb rail has been mistaken for a plank.

 

Anyway, to my eyes, the slates are stacked in rows leaning on the sides of the wagon, not the ends, with a gap for access in the middle. Larger slates at the far end?

 

Either that or they're bricks, as in the GW round-ended 3-plank to the left.

 

[Compound2632]

I know, I'm going round in circles. Might eventually make the slate load...

[WFPettigrew]

21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I know, I'm going round in circles. Might eventually make the slate load...

I can recommend it, it's very therapeutic.

 

And being Welsh slate you don't have to worry about a myriad of different lengths and widths, and dressed top corners...

 

My effort made it to LRY territory andKerrinhead earlier this week.

[billbedford]

With slate loads wouldn't they be wedged in tight so they weren't likely to move when in motion?

[Compound2632]

18 hours ago, billbedford said:

With slate loads wouldn't they be wedged in tight so they weren't likely to move when in motion?

 

Yes, I think that was mentioned in the previous discussion - were wooden wedges mentioned?

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

were wooden wedges mentioned?

Possibly - what I have seen in photos of narrow gauge slate trucks is slates used as wedges. See for example:

 

 

R0608d (RD10054).  Padarn Railway. August, 1961. by Ron Fisher, on Flickr

 

Nick.

[billbedford]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, I think that was mentioned in the previous discussion - were wooden wedges mentioned?

 

I was also wondering whether fixed-sided wagons would have been preferred to drop-sided?

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, billbedford said:

I was also wondering whether fixed-sided wagons would have been preferred to drop-sided?

 

Indeed! My Cambrian 2-plank has drop-sides whereas the one in the Windsor Goods Station photo has fixed sides. (I think it also has the packing blocks to the buffer guides.) 

 

 

The LNWR seems to have been using mostly D2 2-plank wagons for slate traffic, with fixed sides; the GWR 2-plank wagons had a central door.

 

Perhaps a slate load isn't appropriate for this Cambrian wagon after all!

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, billbedford said:

 

I was also wondering whether fixed-sided wagons would have been preferred to drop-sided?

 

There is certainly photographic evidence of side door two planks on the Furness being used for slate, handy as you can walk into the wagon with an armful of slates without having to step over the side, as well as the 

FR's fast side two planks being used for slate.

 

The Furness did also have a fleet of drop side two planks, I haven't seen a photo of one loaded with slate but that's not too say it didn't happen (absence of evidence but being evidence is absence etc.)

 

 

 

 

[magmouse]

18 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

handy as you can walk into the wagon with an armful of slates without having to step over the side

 

In other situations, two or more people can load...

 

 

Embedded image from https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/gallery/look-nostalgic-pictures-show-north-7946482

 

... though hopefully passing more than one slate at a time. (I like the guys on the right who look like they are at a record fair)

 

Nick.

[jamie92208]

From the different style of hat and coat, that the man on the right is wearing, he could be some sort of Inspector or customer rep, check g the slates that are being loaded. 

 

Jamie

[corneliuslundie]

Interesting that the standard gauge wagon has a side door but they have kept it closed and are passing the slates over the top.

But very clear about how the slates are loaded in the narrow gauge wagons. Useful also to see how the slates are stacked beside the line. A pity the photo wasn't taken half an hour later when the standard gauge wagon was loaded enough for us to see the slates.

Actually it must have been quite tricky getting the slates out of the narrow gauge wagons.

A great photo anyway.

Jonathan

PS I have asked the "Cambrian mob" in the WRRC about which wagons would have ben used for slates.

[Compound2632]

48 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

A pity the photo wasn't taken half an hour later when the standard gauge wagon was loaded enough for us to see the slates.

 

But given the density of slate, wouldn't there only be a single layer, so not tall enough to be seen from this angle anyway?

[Mol_PMB]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But given the density of slate, wouldn't there only be a single layer, so not tall enough to be seen from this angle anyway?

Agreed. And would you stack the second layer in line or crosswise compared to the first? I suspect either would lead to damage.

 

I think the slate is stacked with the doors shut because it needs to be tightly packed between the sides and you can't do that without one of the sides in place. Possibly not much room to drop the door without blocking the narrow gauge wagons too.

 

What I can see in the wagon is some soft packing material (straw / bracken?).

 

I note that the slates in that photo are unusually small.

Also the slate wagons are LNWR ones.

 

[MarcD]

The LNWR had 2plk transporter wagons, dia7 sticks in my head for some reason. These were 2plk drop-side wagons with bridge rail bolted to the floor to allow 3 NG slate wagons to be loaded from the ramp/dock at B.F. and shipped down the Conwy valley to a wharf between Conwy and Llandudno. 

 

Marc