More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

19 hours ago, Schooner said:

What are they? 

 

A device for preventing workshop closures and unemployment, also for creating demand for the steel industry. All aimed at staving off economic collapse after the war.

[65179]

On 06/01/2024 at 20:47, Mol_PMB said:

I was just flicking through Essery's Midland Wagons volume 1 to check some D299 details, when it happened to fall open at page 168.

And that answered a question that had stumped me for ages and I was going to pose on this thread.

Let me introduce you to MSC Railway 5888, one of the breakdown vans used in the 1950s and early 1960s until replaced by some former GWR Toads.

 

I'm pretty sure that this is an MR D3882 weighing machine adjusting van (or S&T repairing van), of which only a handful were built.

Note that we can see through the droplight of the single door on this side, to the double doors on the opposite side as shown on the diagram in Essery.

I hope this is of interest.

 

Can anyone identify its mate, MSC 4283? That doesn't seem to be a Midland vehicle. X-shaped iron bracing and cattle-wagon style doors. Of course it may have been modified by the MSC themselves.

 

While we're on the very rare MSC vans (and I fear I'm taking this thread too far off-piste), here's the R.E.D. van 240:

I suspect this is in a different number series as I think this is a very early LMS van based on Midland practice, and therefore it wouldn't have existed when the MSC number series was below 1000.

Sadly I don't know what the van was used for, I suspect the word 'TOOL' or 'STORES' is lurking below R.E.D. behind that partly-open door!

Also partly seen here next to one of the RED coaches.

Cheers,

Mol

 

Apologies if this has been confirmed and I've missed it, but yes MSC 240 is an early LMS van. It's a diagram 1664 van (2544 vans built 1924-26).

Similar in many respects to MR diagram 664, but easily distinguishable by the shorter wheelbase (9 rather than 10ft) and the diagonal strapping going top left to bottom right rather than bottom left to top right on the side to the left of the door.

 

Regards,

 

Simon

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks Simon, much appreciated to have that confirmed. 

Regards,

Mol

[Nick Lawson]

On 06/01/2024 at 15:46, Mol_PMB said:

Oh, and can you identify wagon 504 as well?

Dunno what make of wagon, but is that the Pilkington Glass logo?

 

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Nick Lawson said:

Dunno what make of wagon, but is that the Pilkington Glass logo?

 

Interesting. As far as I can find out, Pilkington Bros. wagons were red with the broad white diagonal stripe or stripes from quite an early date; certainly by the 1925 date of the photo. But the examples one finds were wagons for sand - the bold painting style perhaps being intended to make one think twice before putting coal in them - so maybe they had a separate fleet of coal wagons?

 

Or is this style of cross associated with St Helens and the wagon is from some local colliery? (There must be some heraldic term for this style of cross.)

[Mol_PMB]

33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Interesting. As far as I can find out, Pilkington Bros. wagons were red with the broad white diagonal stripe or stripes from quite an early date; certainly by the 1925 date of the photo. But the examples one finds were wagons for sand - the bold painting style perhaps being intended to make one think twice before putting coal in them - so maybe they had a separate fleet of coal wagons?

 

Or is this style of cross associated with St Helens and the wagon is from some local colliery? (There must be some heraldic term for this style of cross.)

Cross Patonce. And it is indeed the arms of Pilkington the family and the company, though theirs is more of an outline than a solid cross:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilkington_of_Lancashire

Interesting. St Helens is about 15 miles from Barton where the accident occurred.

Mol

[wagonman]

 

A couple of D299s in the yard at Yarmouth Beach thought to be c1920. Why there was a Mariarchi band passing is unknown. Photo in the M&GN Circle collection.

 

 

Richard

 

[Andy Vincent]

5 hours ago, wagonman said:

the yard at Yarmouth Beach

Interestingly, there is P H Futter still listed as a coal merchant in the same area.

[wagonman]

5 hours ago, Andy Vincent said:

Interestingly, there is P H Futter still listed as a coal merchant in the same area.

 

Henry Futter died in 1934. His eldest daughter Mary Ann Elizabeth was recorded in the 1911 as a 'clerk to coal merchant' though whether she inherited the business I don't know. She married an electrician named George Kettle and settled in Norwich. If P H Futter is a direct descendant (s)he must have skipped a generation.

Edited January 9 by wagonman

[Mikkel]

11 hours ago, wagonman said:

Why there was a Mariarchi band passing is unknown.

 

Very Pythonesque, made my evening.

 

[MarcD]

I hadn't spotted that.

[sir douglas]

Somebody asking about a wagon works https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/183759-a-small-company-wagon-builder-the-derbyshire-carriage-wagon-co-ltd/

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, sir douglas said:

Somebody asking about a wagon works https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/183759-a-small-company-wagon-builder-the-derbyshire-carriage-wagon-co-ltd/

 

C. Sambrook, British Carriage & Wagon Builders & Repairers 1830-2018 (Lightmoor Press, 2019) was useful there.

[phil_sutters]

On 09/01/2024 at 21:32, wagonman said:

 

Henry Futter died in 1934. His eldest daughter Mary Ann Elizabeth was recorded in the 1911 as a 'clerk to coal merchant' though whether she inherited the business I don't know. She married an electrician named George Kettle and settled in Norwich. If P H Futter is a direct descendant (s)he must have skipped a generation.

..or is a descendant of another of Henry's children.

[wagonman]

2 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

..or is a descendant of another of Henry's children.

 

Possibly though Henry only had one son (sixth time lucky), Henry James, and he became a bus engineer, later working for LT at Hatfield. He had no children living at home in the 1939 register and when he died in 1954 his widow was the administrator of his estate.

[Compound2632]

50 minutes ago, wagonman said:

Henry only had one son (sixth time lucky)

 

One has to feel for the daughters in those cases! Though also for the only son with all those big sisters.

[wagonman]

Henry's father, also Henry, started the business in the late 1870s. Henry Junior had a brother Arthur but he became a general carter. When he died in 1924, the executors of his estate were his widow and two sons, none of them in the coal business. The mystery deepens...

[MrWolf]

It may be that someone bought the company name and the goodwill, having an established name and business is very good for customer relations.

 

There were two bicycle businesses named Smalley's, one in Lancaster, one in Morecambe. As the original owner retired, she sold the Morecambe business to a family named Walker, but they maintained it as the forty odd years established Smalley's until they retired and closed the business due to changing market forces.

 

 

Edited January 12 by MrWolf

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, MrWolf said:

It may be that someone bought the company name and the goodwill, having an established name and business is very good for customer relations.

 

Alan Gibson being a case in point.

[wagonman]

4 hours ago, MrWolf said:

It may be that someone bought the company name and the goodwill, having an established name and business is very good for customer relations.

 

There were two bicycle businesses named Smalley's, one in Lancaster, one in Morecambe. As the original owner retired, she sold the Morecambe business to a family named Walker, but they maintained it as the forty odd years established Smalley's until they retired and closed the business due to changing market forces.

 

 

 

That frequently happens – but in this case the modern business is called P H Futter. Futter is not an unusual name in that part of Norfolk: there are seven 'Futters' in the Great Yarmouth area phone book.

Edited January 12 by wagonman

[drduncan]

At the risk, no certainty, of going off topic (eg it has nothing to do with certain MR abominations) could I speak to the collective wisdom of Compound’s followers? 
 

How many planks would you assume in a wooden bodied wagon either 2’6” or 2’4” deep? Built dates are the mid to late 1850s and all were condemned in the period 1891-3. Company is the South Devon Railway…

 

The 30” deep versions suggest to me 3x 10” planks but the 28” ones I’m at a loss. What does everyone think? 

 

Regards

 

Duncan

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, drduncan said:

certain MR abominations

 

Overlooking that...

 

3 minutes ago, drduncan said:

How many planks would you assume in a wooden bodied wagon either 2’6” or 2’4” deep? Built dates are the mid to late 1850s and all were condemned in the period 1891-3. Company is the South Devon Railway…

 

... I wouldn't think two 14" planks was unreasonable for the period but three 9⅜" planks is possible; four 7" planks perhaps too modern. Does the wagon have side doors, and are they full height or not?

 

 

 

[drduncan]

As far as I know the are no known photos or drawings that can be tied to the dimensions in the wagon register (ie the drawing I have and info of the wagon it purports to be cannot be reconciled with the recorded register dimensions). The 2 SDR wagons I have found partial views of have full height side doors. They appear to be 3 planks but may not be…

 

D

[MrWolf]

I'm afraid I can't give you a definitive answer but I can tell you something about the value of wood, both financial and perceived, a hundred and more years ago.

Take the simple ledged and boarded doors that appeared everywhere from cottages to castles.

You don't get too many wide boards out of a tree trunk, so they're expensive. Expensive, as now, was seen as a sign of status. So a simple three ledge (The cross pieces holding the hinges etc) might have two to six boards depending on the status of a property, eg, bedroom doors in a manor house might well consist of two 14" wide boards, but in the utilitarian areas, they would be five or six boards.

 

Wide boards have a nasty habit of warping unless you increase the thickness substantially or add bracing. They were also less readily available of course.

 

This all might seem OT, but my point is this. 

Simply on economic grounds, I think it unlikely that two 14" boards would be used.

Practically, there's not only the risk of warping and subsequent splitting out in the open, but if a 14" plank gets damaged, it's going to be more than  twice the price to replace than two 9-1/4" planks. 

 

I would therefore suggest that three planks is the answer.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

I'm afraid I can't give you a definitive answer but I can tell you something about the value of wood, both financial and perceived, a hundred and more years ago.

Take the simple ledged and boarded doors that appeared everywhere from cottages to castles.

You don't get too many wide boards out of a tree trunk, so they're expensive. Expensive, as now, was seen as a sign of status. So a simple three ledge (The cross pieces holding the hinges etc) might have two to six boards depending on the status of a property, eg, bedroom doors in a manor house might well consist of two 14" wide boards, but in the utilitarian areas, they would be five or six boards.

 

Wide boards have a nasty habit of warping unless you increase the thickness substantially or add bracing. They were also less readily available of course.

 

This all might seem OT, but my point is this. 

Simply on economic grounds, I think it unlikely that two 14" boards would be used.

Practically, there's not only the risk of warping and subsequent splitting out in the open, but if a 14" plank gets damaged, it's going to be more than  twice the price to replace than two 9-1/4" planks. 

 

I would therefore suggest that three planks is the answer.

 

An interesting argument, I would contend we need to consider the type of wood. I'm imagining your doors to be made of home-grown hardwood - English oak. This was commonly specified for wagon underframes, i.e. was readily available in sizes up to around 15 ft x 12 in x 5 in. The side and end planking of a wagon was usually specified to be of pine, generally imported from the Baltic, and we're also talking about boards around 15 ft long x 2½ in or 3 in thick. It's certainly the case that 11 in widths were commonly in use up to the late 19th century; it's really only from around the turn of the century that 7 in becomes a more-or-less standard width, for private owner wagon building. 

 

Wagon building firms and the wagon works of the railway companies typically had 2 or 3 years' supply of timber in stock, seasoning.