More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[John-Miles]

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Posh enough not to endure the infamous L&Y horsehair-padded third class seating!

Both my parents used to talk about the L&Y carriages and the horsehair. They were born and raised in Nelson, Lancs and much preferred the Midland. So it would be tram to Colne, train to Skipton, change and then off to tropical Morecambe.

[Compound2632]

https://www.titfield.co.uk/Books/Model-Railway-Journal-det.htm#5537

 

"Affectionately". I'm very pleased that that's how my little piece comes across to the reviewer.

[kitpw]

21 hours ago, Western Star said:

I do, yes please.

....well, here it is. On closer inspection - having picked it somewhat at random  - it seems to require some interpretation.  I do know that below 20 gauge, the pitch was 5" and above was 3".  Probably not that useful.  There are some tables of more use to modellers. for instance,  the gas lighting of roads. Braby & Co manufactured corrugated sheeting at their Eclipse works in Glasgow: the Braby table is pasted into the book - probably after publication.

Kit PW

A 1920s 7mm terminus layout: Swan Hill - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, kitpw said:

There are some tables of more use to modellers. for instance,  the gas lighting of roads.

 

Given the compromises modellers usually have to make on length, I think one would want to take liberties with that for the sake of the "longer look". Lamps over 18" apart (in 4 mm scale) would look rather sparse. (Says he, having recently planted gas lamps a scale 40 ft apart on the platform of our club layout.)

Edited December 1, 2021 by Compound2632

[kitpw]

49 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

gas lamps a scale 40 ft apart

...modelling in 7mm scale, all but two of mine would be in next door's garden.  I'll order MRJ (Smiths closed here in Putney High Street at least three years ago and I only seem to get round to ordering if there's something of particular interest).  More on topic, a question:  if a D299 turned up at Swan Hill in 1927, what livery might it have been carrying?  Ditto Midland vans.  I'm sure you've delved into this before but this is page 167 and searching returned alot, but not the answer.

 

This is a sketch made from a moving bus in rural Rajastan:  the chimneys, which are particular being square and stepped, are brickworks:  the wide and flat landscape is punctuated with them.  I think that's my last contributon on the subject of bricks for now..... (except maybe to follow the "brick of the day" facebook thread).

 

Kit PW

A 1920s 7mm terminus layout: Swan Hill - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill/

 

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, kitpw said:

More on topic, a question:  if a D299 turned up at Swan Hill in 1927, what livery might it have been carrying?  Ditto Midland vans.  I'm sure you've delved into this before but this is page 167 and searching returned alot, but not the answer.

 

Since my period of interest is c. 1902, I don't think LMS period livery has been touched on much. It is my considered opinion that D299s were probably becoming rapidly less numerous by the late 1920s. Having been built 1882-1902, on the basis of a nominal 30 year lifetime, one would expect withdrawals to begin around 1912 - which is indeed roughly when the Midland started building 10 ton 5-plank merchandise wagons and larger-capacity 12 ton mineral wagons in quantity - and end around 1932. There doesn't seem to be any evidence for D299s surviving to receive the 1936 livery. So for your date, I would expect either the first LMS livery or well-worn Midland Livery. If the latter, I think the wagon would certainly carry its number on the bottom plank under the M, as that was introduced in 1917. [Midland Wagons plates 65, 93, 94, 96.] An exception could be a wagon of the 1,000 of Lot 919 of 1917, which could in principle survive the second war [MW plate 99] but this batch has the additional vertical washer plates like the later D302. 

 

However (and not relevant to your question), there is a photo of a D351 (the end-door version of D299) photographed in 1939 in LMS 1936 livery, still with grease axleboxes (MW plate 112); these were built 1890-1900 so this wagon will have been nearly 40 years old at least. 

 

You're on safer ground with the vans, most of the 14'11" long D357 vans were built 1903-5 while the 16'6" long D362/3 vans were built up to 1916. For 1927, I'd say first LMS livery or well-worn Midland livery. 

[Mikkel]

On 30/11/2021 at 17:54, Compound2632 said:

https://www.titfield.co.uk/Books/Model-Railway-Journal-det.htm#5537

 

"Affectionately". I'm very pleased that that's how my little piece comes across to the reviewer.

 

Congratulations Stephen, nice to see that you have a piece in the MRJ. 

[Compound2632]

Whilst still faffing around off-topic, here's a bit of commercial archaeology; a side-light on the discussion of beer casks:

 

 

Dimensions are 12" x 8" x 11⅜" tall with sides and bottom ⅜" thick and ends ½" thick. There were two of these, rotting away in the garden at my late father's house; this one is about to join the other at the skip. The were used as stools in the box-room I had for my first model railway, so definitely date before 1972, and almost certainly to before we moved to Shrewsbury in 1966. They may have come from my grandmother's house on Kingstanding Road*. At that time they still had their varnish, like the one in this Birmingham Mail article, which gives the low-down on Davenports Brewery, which is still in business.

 

*Boldwela. My grandfather was a freelance journalist who won the deposit on the house in a competition for a house name, sometime in the 1930s. It's an obscure Old English word meaning "bright (or heavenly) dwelling", used where we would use "paradise".

Edited April 5, 2022 by Compound2632
photos reinserted

[57xx]

On 01/12/2021 at 13:08, Compound2632 said:

There doesn't seem to be any evidence for D299s surviving to receive the 1936 livery

 

There's actually 2 pics of D299's attributed to be being taken in 1936 in Bob Essery's Midland Wagons vol1. They aren't in post 1936 livery but have survived until then and carry the 1930's LMS livery. I can't recall seeing any LMS opens with the number under the M on the door, only on the left hand side. There is a D1666 in said volume, fresh out of the paint shop in 1923 with large LMS, number on the left hand side bottom plank, tare on the solebar and no 12T marking. I can only recall seeing central numbers on the sliding doors of some vans.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, 57xx said:

There's actually 2 pics of D299's attributed to be being taken in 1936 in Bob Essery's Midland Wagons vol1. They aren't in post 1936 livery but have survived until then and carry the 1930's LMS livery.

 

Yes. Plate 99 shows a wagon from Lot 919 of 1917, do in 1936 it's within it's allotted three score years. I would not be unduly surprised if a photo of one of this lot in post-1936 livery turned up but with only 1,000 built it's a bit of a needle in a haystack. Its number, 75036, indicates that it had probably replaced an earlier D299 of perhaps late 1880s vintage which in turn replaced an private owner wagon bought up late 1884 / early 1885 (when the Midland wagon fleet reached around 75,000 wagons). Plate 96 shows No. 79102, with Ellis 10A axleboxes. It's possible that it's a wagon built before c. 1890 that has had its original 8A axleboxes replaced but on the whole I think this points to 1890s build. It's a shame the builder's plate can't be read. It would have replaced a private owner wagon bought up towards the end of 1885. The bought-up private owner wagons were not, I think, replaced in the order in which they were purchased. Most ran for a few years in Midland ownership and livery, with a substantial number still in traffic at the turn of the century. I suppose the latter were the better ones, with the most unsatisfactory ones being replaced first. So I would hazard a guess that No. 7902 was at oldest in its early 40s when photographed - I would think, one of the longest-lived of the type.

 

23 minutes ago, 57xx said:

I can't recall seeing any LMS opens with the number under the M on the door, only on the left hand side. 

 

I'm sorry but you misunderstood me; it was the number under the M of M R to which I was referring:

 

On 01/12/2021 at 13:08, Compound2632 said:

So for your date, I would expect either the first LMS livery or well-worn Midland Livery. If the latter, I think the wagon would certainly carry its number on the bottom plank under the M, as that was introduced in 1917. 

 

In the first LMS livery, the position of the number was unchanged but of course was now under the L of L M S, as in the photos of Nos. 75036 and 79102.

 

[57xx]

More misreading on my part than misunderstanding, I didn't see the "if the latter...".

 

I would hazard a guess it wasn't financially viable to repaint in bauxite when the wagons were coming to end of life and so any that had survived that long would be at the back of a very long queue, resulting in the needle in haystack.

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, 57xx said:

I would hazard a guess it wasn't financially viable to repaint in bauxite when the wagons were coming to end of life and so any that had survived that long would be at the back of a very long queue, resulting in the needle in haystack.

 

Wandering a bit outside the time-frame of this topic, I do wonder what fraction of the LMS wagon fleet did receive the bauxite livery? With just three years to the outbreak of the war, I'd guess somewhat under half of the wagon stock at 1936 plus of course wagons built after the livery change. 

[Compound2632]

On 09/12/2021 at 12:58, Compound2632 said:

Whilst still faffing around off-topic, here's a bit of commercial archaeology; a side-light on the discussion of beer casks:

 

 

Dimensions are 12" x 8" x 11⅜" tall with sides and bottom ⅜" thick and ends ½" thick.

 

The interior slats are ¼" thick. I had presumed that the ends were made thicker than the sides as they have the hand-holes and need to be more robust but a quick bit of adding up shows that the apertures are as a result 3½" square - so beer bottles of that diameter would be a snug fit. Modern beer bottles are around 3" diameter at most but I suspect there has been a sea-change in dimensions with the adoption of metric capacities. I'm better up on the diameters of wine bottles, myself - could some historic beer drinkers comment?

Edited April 5, 2022 by Compound2632

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The interior slats are ¼" thick. I had presumed that the ends were made thicker than the sides as they have the hand-holes and need to be more robust but a quick bit of adding up shows that the apertures are as a result 3½" square - so beer bottles of that diameter would be a snug fit. Modern beer bottles are around 3" diameter at most but I suspect there has been a sea-change in dimensions with the adoption of metric capacities. I'm better up on the diameters of wine bottles, myself - could some historic beer drinkers comment?

Assuming that the interior volume hasn't changed (though it might have done - a lot of modern bottles are 500ml rather than 1 pint / 568ml ), it might be that they were made of thicker glass, as the manufacturing processes weren't as evolved?

[Andy Hayter]

As well as bottle making not being quite so evolved I think bottles may well have been deliberately thicker to allow for internal fermentation in the bottle.   Remember there were no CO2 cylinders to inject gas into the beer as it is bottled under pressure.  The gas in the beer relied on residual CO2 from the fermentation plus deliberate fermentation in the bottle.  

 

That would be a somewhat imprecise process so leeway on the strength of the bottle would be needed.

[Mark Forrest]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

could some historic beer drinkers comment?

I'm neither historic myself or a drinker of historic beer, but do happen to have an area in our garden that previous occupants of our house appear to have used as a rubbish tip.

Most of the bottles we've unearthed have been half pint capacity; these two (Lichfield Brewery and Ind Coope) are approx 2.5" diameter.

 

I don't have an age for them - could be anytime in the past 220 years.

[Worsdell forever]

I've got a couple of Scarborough and Whitby Breweries bottles, 10" tall, 3" diameter and hold 1 pint. Sometime between 1897 and 1953 when they were acquired by Camerons.

 

http://breweryhistory.com/wiki/index.php?title=Scarborough_%26_Whitby_Breweries_Ltd

 

[Compound2632]

This is leading me to the conclusion that these wooden crates had plenty of rattle-room an the squareness of the slots is simply either a chance outcome of the overall design or the result of obsessive design!

[kitpw]

On 02/12/2021 at 20:45, Mikkel said:

nice to see that you have a piece in the MRJ

Stephen, as I was crossing the concourse at Waterloo one day this week, I diverted to Smiths (opposite end of Waterloo to the old 'Windsor lines' now using platforms 20 to 24)  and got a copy of the current MRJ. Although modelling in 7mm and GWR, interest in your article is in no way diminished - well done!

 

Kit PW

[Compound2632]

On 10/12/2021 at 14:45, kitpw said:

Stephen, as I was crossing the concourse at Waterloo one day this week, I diverted to Smiths (opposite end of Waterloo to the old 'Windsor lines' now using platforms 20 to 24)  and got a copy of the current MRJ. Although modelling in 7mm and GWR, interest in your article is in no way diminished - well done!

 

Thank you, you are very kind to draw attention to it.

 

I should point out a typo on p. 409, middle column, second paragraph: for "Wagons built up to c. 1899 were fitted with type 8A grease axleboxes" read 1889. Author's error!

 

I didn't finish the brake van in time, because I got bogged down with the safety bars for the verandah; after trying to make some loops from fine wire I concluded that handrail knobs would be the way forward. Over ten months later, I've just got around to ordering them.

 

This photo shows the details of an earlier van that I am aiming for:

 

 

[Hugh Llewelyn, CC BY-SA 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons.] Taken at Barrow Hill on 23 August 2008. This one has Ellis 10A axleboxes, dating it to the 1890s (unless, of course, axleboxes had been changed from the 1880s 8A type). The same goes for the creosote tank. (There was discussion of such vehicles upthread. Somewhere...) Following the link to "Collections" on the Barrow Hill website leads to frustration: https://www.barrowhill.org/collections.html.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Penlan]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

This is leading me to the conclusion that these wooden crates had plenty of rattle-room an the squareness of the slots is simply either a chance outcome of the overall design or the result of obsessive design!

Or, room to pack some straw in, which I seem to recall happened 
Pre. air bubble wrap etc.,

[John-Miles]

Davenports were famous for Beer at Home - they ran a series of TV adverts which the proprietor made himself and he appeared at the end with  glass of beer and said cheers. They were rather amateurish adverts but charming.

[Compound2632]

I've bought a LNWR locomotive. It arrived in pieces...

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Rowsley17D]

I hope this isn't the start of a slippery slope, Stephen?

[Regularity]

Oh, I hope it is!

 

Coal engine?