More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

I hope you are not using lead-free solder - that wrecked my bits in no time and was useless for joining things as well.

 

Carr's 145°, Sn 50 % Pb 32% Cd 18%. And their yellow label flux; I had previously been using red label but have run out. I think the yellow was preferred for whitemetal.

[jamie92208]

On 30/12/2021 at 12:47, Compound2632 said:

 

They're in C. Sambrook, British Carriage & Wagon Builders & Repairers 1830-2018 (Lightmoor Press, 2019): Forest Wagon Works, Bulwell Forest, Notts. - adjacent to the GNR; also the Lion Wagon Woks, Nantyglo, Mon. At nationalisation, the firm owned over 4,000 wagons; built a small number of wagons for BR under the modernisation plan, but folded in 1964. Part of their buildings was transplanted to Swanwick Junction, Midland Railway Centre. Sambrook's illustrations are from adverts: one, pre-Great War I think, has a drawing of a wagon in the livery of Dinnington Main, No. 700; another has a photo of an LNER 6-plank open No. 149500.

Does that book have any info on JR Beadman of Keighley by any chance they built most of the PO's for the Dales Limestone quarries.  Feel free to PM me rather than cluttering this thread up.

 

Jamie

Edited November 22, 2022 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

58 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Does that book have any info on JR Beadman of Keighley byvany chance they built most of thecPO's for the Dales Limestone quarries.  Feel free to PM me rather than cluttering this thread up.

 

As if I didn't clutter it up myself!

 

J.B. Beadman, Sons & Co. Ltd., Lawkhome Wagon Works, Keighley, Yorks. In the 1881 census, Joseph Blockley Beadman, aged 29, waggon builder employing two men and living at 48 Braford Street. John Beadman, railway wagon builder aged 49, born Leicester, in the 1901 census - the same? Share capital was only £5,000 and wagons supplied mostly to local firms. Still in business in 1956, on a BR list of authorised firms for heavy repair work, but with their location given as Skipton.

 

The entry points to the Midland PO wagon registers, the first three volumes of which I have from Ian Pope as an Excel spreadsheet transcript. This gives 208 wagons registered with the Midland between 1889 and 1901, mostly in ones and twos but a few batches of 10 and one of 20 for Jno. Scott of Ingleton. Beadman built quite a few wagons for T. Murgatroyd of Skipton, who I've come across in my analysis of the Skipton minerals inward register. Most of the wagons look pretty standard for the period - 10 tons, 14'6" x 7'0" x 3'5" or 3'6" internal dimensions (i.e. 15'0" over headstocks) with side and sometimes bottom doors - the side doors 2'10" or 2'11" high, implying 7" top planks and 6 planks overall. They built the majority of the Craven Lime Co.'s wagons over that period - 40 wagons out of 58. Most of these were longer - 15'6" x 7'0" x 2'11" internal, 10 tons with side and bottom doors, the side doors 2'4" high - suggesting five 7" planks. The wagons for Scott of Ingleton, 30 in all, were similar but only 1'10" deep with full height side doors only - three planks presumably. Was Scott in the quarrying business?*

 

One of the wagons for the Craven Lime Co. is noted as having steel frames, which sounds quite ambitious for a one-man-and-his-dog operation building wagons at the rate of one every two or three weeks - though of course production may have been higher, with registrations by other companies - I suppose the Great Northern would be the most likely. 

 

*Edit: meaning building / paving stone, rather than lime.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Compound2632

[jamie92208]

Thanks very much.  I also went through the PO registers, all 10 of them and made an extract of all the ones that might have operated in the dales. I did an article in the MRS Journal a few years ago and offerred to share my spreadsheet but didn't get any takers.

 

I ended up building quite a few wagons and used the Slaters 7mm 5 plank MR kit as the basis for most of them and then commissioned transfers from Powsides.

 

Jamie

Edited November 22, 2022 by jamie92208

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

I didan article in the MRS Journal a few years ago and offerred to share my spreadsheet but didn't get any takers.

 

I had a copy off you about 18 months ago... Sorry, I'd forgotten I had it.

 

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

I ended up building quite a few wagons and used the Slaters 7mm 5 plank MR kit as the basis for most of them and then commissioned transfers from Powsides.

 

Did you find any photos, esp. of T. Murgatroyd and H. Robinson & Sons?

[jamie92208]

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I had a copy off you about 18 months ago... Sorry, I'd forgotten I had it.

 

 

Did you find any photos, esp. of T. Murgatroyd and H. Robinson & Sons?

Not that I know of.  I would still like to have some Laycocks wagons as they had an office at Lancaster.  The J Scott ones of Ingleton are interesting.  IIRC they were 3 plank wagons for granite that were kept relatively light weight so that they could be taken up and down the self acting incline from Ingleton station to the line that ran along the lower slopes of Ingleborough past White Scar caves to the quarry.  I wondered if they would be lettered for Ingleton Granite, the trade name, or Scott's the owner.

 

Jamie

[Jol Wilkinson]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah, that assumes there's an end...

 

I've ordered some more bits for the Antex 25W iron. The last one went black and cruddy on me rather quickly. I'm clearly maltreating them somehow...

Stephen

 

Antex bits can sometimes be a bit difficult to "tin". I find using a resin flux cored solder best for that before reverting to my usual  LRM 145 degree solder. I"ve also found  one of those "gold scrub bud"  cleaners in a round holder good at keeping the tip fresh.

 

Jol

[Rowsley17D]

While not wishing to rub salt into the Midland 2F wound, I bought what was advertised as a 3F. Looking at the photo I could see something was amiss. On delivery I'm sure it's a Deeleyfied Johnson 5'3" 2F (Keyser kit L16?)

 

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said:

While not wishing to rub salt into the Midland 2F wound, I bought what was advertised as a 3F. Looking at the photo I could see something was amiss. On delivery I'm sure it's a Deeleyfied Johnson 5'3" 2F (Keyser kit L16?)

 

Yes, I think you're right as to what it represents. If we take it at face value as 3649, that's an engine that went to its grave in period 4 of 1946 in its Deeleyfied Johnson condition without ever receiving an H, G6, or G7 boiler. It was the last of the Dubs batch of Class M, delivered in April 1900 as No. 2570. But you'll want to re-number it anyway (if the early LMS livery is right for you) because the small-size red-shaded digits are o-so-wrongo. As I'm sure you know, it's the 18" gold-shaded-black you want. Also, throughout the 1920s, 3649 was a Leicester engine. [S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 4 (Irwell Press, 2005).]

 

There's something not quite right about the coal rails...

Edited December 31, 2021 by Compound2632

[Rowsley17D]

Thanks, Stephen. I need the Summerson volume to add to my set and will be searching for one directly. The 2F needs a bit of work before it can go on the layout and a renumber and livery will be one. The cab steps are fitted incorrectly and the chimney needs turning slightly. It looks to have been superglued together so I'll try de-bonder.

[Compound2632]

Anyway, enough of these tiddly 0-6-0s! My A is on its way!

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

My A is on its way!

 

... which means I'll also be wanting a bigger LNWR brake van:

 

[watfordtmc]

On 27/12/2021 at 11:39, Compound2632 said:

On the same theme, Arkell [4], p. 4, has a photo taken at High Brooms on the Tonbridge - Hastings line, said to be late 1930s - there is an all-steel wagon that would no doubt give an earliest date to those who know about such things. Coal is being bagged up inside this wagon Again, there is a GW wagon with sheet bar in coal traffic - this time a 5-plank but the number is hidden from sight. There's another GW open loaded with barrels and possibly small boxes or packages. Between these is a long open with doors at both ends - ex-L&Y I think - in coal traffic, as is an ex-LNWR D84 open 272364, looking rather shabby with LMS lettering. There's no lettering visible on the ex-L&Y wagon but it has the diagonal stipe running bottom left to top right. It might have the 1936-style small lettering - hidden from view. Just beyond the all-steel wagon is one that may have the initials GN, very faded. Of the PO wagons, only Coventry Colliery No. 540 of 1927 is a straight RCH 1923 specification wagon.

 

 

I took a look at the image of High Brooms goods yard in PO wagons of the South-East (Ref 1), as invited, and offer my thoughts for what they're worth:

 

The metal bodied wagon is a Butterley Co. ‘Patent’ steel wagon, but you’ve read the book so you’ll be aware of that from the discussion about the operator involved, Messrs FW Butcher of High Brooms, further on in the book.

 

The most comprehensive, accessible, treatment of the Butterley wagons that I know of is in David Larkin’s ‘Acquired Wagons of British Railways, vol. 2’ (Ref 2).  David states that these wagons were built from 1934, but that is contradicted by John Arkell, who notes that Butcher numbered the wagons by the year of their acquisition – 1931 in the case of the wagon illustrated.  With the aid of a glass (magnifying rather than liquid!) it’s possible to make out the registration plate, SR No. 566 of 1931.

 

Butcher is not an operator discussed by David Larkin, but John Arkell says that Butcher acquired three such wagons between 1931 and 1938, and two of them can be seen in the image of High Brooms.  The caption describes the image as dating from the late 1930’s and given that Butcher acquired the last of their Butterley wagons in1938, this might tie in with the relatively fresh state of the wagon partly visible in the foreground.

 

The ‘patent’ referred to the arrangement of body panels, whereby it was possible to unbolt the panels and replace them in the event of damage.  Butterley built quite a number for their own fleet, and seemed to have found a steady trade in the type up to 1940.

 

I’m reasonably confident the LMS wagon with double end doors is an ex L&Y vehicle; the standard work (Ref 3) on the subject noting: “…the distinctive style (or trademark) for which the L & Y half box would be forever remembered – the double end door wagon.”  ‘Half box’ seems to have been the L&Y’s favoured way of describing what others would call a high goods or open.

 

The pattern was introduced during HN Gresley’s term of office; although it’s not clear to what extent he influenced the design.  Wagons were then built in this style with two different lengths of underframe, two wheelbases, at least two depths of body, timber or steel underframes and some with vacuum brakes, so I’m afraid on the basis of what little we can see of the wagon, I would not care to venture which diagram it was built to.

 

Finally, you will no doubt have noted the use of wagons with sheet rails for coal traffic in the image at pp 11.  From what can be discerned of the wagons, the first three of which have visible sheet rails, and study of the standard work (Ref 4) my judgement is that these are of the type that later became SR diagram 1341, a five plank open with steel underframe, ‘Stone’s patent’ either side brake and Williams sheet rails.

 

Strictly speaking diagram 1341 was considered a coal wagon, but the type, as (SR) diagram 1340 was described as an open goods, which in theory ought to have had a high, round end rather than a sheet rail.  However, there were at least four different builders and such images as exist suggest a loose interpretation of the design.

 

References

1. Private Owner Wagons of the South-East {ex SECR}, Arkell J, Lightmoor Press 2016.  pp 4 for image of High Brooms goods yard, pp 81-82 for discussion about FW Butcher.
2. The Acquired Wagons of British Railways Volume 2: All steel Mineral Wagons and Loco Coal Wagons, Larkin D, Crecy Publishing Co 2019.  pp 15-23 for section on Butterley Co. wagons.
3. Lancashire and Yorkshire Wagons Volume One, Coates N, Wild Swan Publications (Didcot) 1990.  pp 165-186 for discussion on double end door ‘half-box’ wagons.
4. An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons Volume 3: SECR, Bixley G, Blackburn A, Chorley R, King M, Oxford Publishing Co (Shepperton) 2000.  pp 39-43 for discussion on D1340/1341 wagons.

Regards

TMc

01/01/2022

 

[MikeOxon]

On 26/12/2021 at 09:55, Compound2632 said:

I have Bristol and Gloucestershire but not Forest of Dean - on the grounds that the Forest of Dean coalfield was supplying locally (vide the Gloucestershire volume) but probably not as far north as Brum, and equally seems unlikely to have had many customers for coal from north of Brum. ...

According to the book 'The Forest of Dean Branch- Vol.1' by Ian Pope and Paul Karau, quoting reminiscences of the yard foreman at Bullo, published in 1897: "As time began to be of value, trains were made up in the evening, and the coal ... was started on its way, via Swindon to Salisbury in which district at that time Forest coal was chiefly used"

Mike

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, watfordtmc said:

The Acquired Wagons of British Railways Volume 2: All steel Mineral Wagons and Loco Coal Wagons, Larkin D, Crecy Publishing Co 2019.  

 

Thanks, I do like this sort of close reading of photos. The Larkin book is the only one of your references that I don't have, being of limited relevance to c. 1902! But pre-grouping wagons should not be without relevance to the BR steam modeller. The quick analysis I did the other day of LMS wagon stock showed that at 31 Dec 1946, 38% of LMS wagons were of pre-grouping origin. 

 

Going back to @jamie92208's spreadsheet of dales PO wagons, his list goes beyond the first three volumes of the Midland PO register, of which I have a transcript. So I was interested to see my old friend J.J. Robinson of Skipton, who it might be remembered in the Autumn of 1898 was getting large quantities of coal in apparently under-loaded Midland 8-ton wagons from St John's Colliery, Normanton, bought ten 8 ton wagons of his own from S.J. Claye in April 1902 - numbered 11-20. We also find T. Murgatroyd and H. Robinson & Sons expanding their fleets. I'm beginning to sense a resurgence in PO wagons on the Midland in the new century. I'm fairly sure this represents the Midland not being able to meet demand with its own wagons as the coal industry continued to expand to its 1913 peak. Certainly the rate of registrations increased on the Midland, from 24,000 from 1887 to 1898 to a total of 72,000 by 1914.

[Miss Prism]

Quote

via Swindon to Salisbury

 

If I was going to Salisbury, I'm not sure I would go via Swindon.

 

[Compound2632]

13 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

If I was going to Salisbury, I'm not sure I would go via Swindon.

 

But it might if it was being routed via Gloucester? Could it be a question of available paths? 

 

Forest of Dean coal was widely consumed in Gloucestershire, as Ian Pope's Private Owner Wagons of Gloucestershire (Lightmoor Press, 2006) attests. I'm glad I got a copy of that when I did; I believe it is now out of print.

[drduncan]

On 04/06/2021 at 11:05, Compound2632 said:

 

That's a 25 or 1853 Class bogie single, built 1887-90. Cylinders are 18" x 26", boiler is pressed to 160 psi, and grate area is 19.6 sq ft, with a total heating surface of 1240 sq ft. Weight in working order is 43 t 9 c 3 q (excluding tender); length over buffers (including the 3,250 gal tender) 52'8½". 

 

Show me a British express passenger engine of the late 1880s with similar or larger dimensions. The only one I can find off-hand is Webb's Teutonic 3-cylinder compound.

Broad Gauge Rover final version?

[Compound2632]

Just now, drduncan said:

Broad Gauge Rover final version?

 

That's cheating! I read somewhere that S.W. Johnson regretted that the British railways weren't to Irish standard gauge - 5'3" - as that would give just a bit more space for larger bearing surfaces all round, larger diameter cylinders, and bigger steam chests.

[drduncan]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's cheating! I read somewhere that S.W. Johnson regretted that the British railways weren't to Irish standard gauge - 5'3" - as that would give just a bit more space for larger bearing surfaces all round, larger diameter cylinders, and bigger steam chests.

I blame that northern chappie Stephenson…

[wagonman]

19 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

If I was going to Salisbury, I'm not sure I would go via Swindon.

 

 

The South Wales to Salisbury coal trains – of which there was a steady supply – went via the tunnel and then the line through Bradford and Trowbridge. Wouldn't Forest coal have gone over the bridge? Or would that be too advantageous to the Midland...

[Miss Prism]

I think quite a bit of Forest coal did go over the bridge, but I do wonder whether much of it was routed to Salisbury, because, as you note, Salisbury (and hence the Southern) got a plentiful supply from South Wales.

[wagonman]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

I think quite a bit of Forest coal did go over the bridge, but I do wonder whether much of it was routed to Salisbury, because, as you note, Salisbury (and hence the Southern) got a plentiful supply from South Wales.

 

Yes Russ, but... Read & Son, the Salisbury based coal factor, certainly advertised Forest coals, along with supplies from Wales, Cannock, Durham and Radstock etc. The 'PO Wagons of Wiltshire' has a Gloucester photo of wagon 489 with the instruction to return empty to Trafalgar Colliery, Bilson in the Forest of Dean, but obviously no hint of the route taken.

 

 

Richard

[Miss Prism]

I guess that proves, as if we didn't know already, that coal flows were complex.

 

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

I guess that proves, as if we didn't know already, that coal flows were complex.

 

But the fun is in trying to unravel that complexity!