Abbotswood junction - Original layout - thread now closed please see Abbotswood and Norton Junctions

[David Todd]

Errrrrr no you defo said you were looking forward to having a go building track

Good luck

Cheers, Paul

Looking at the sub title,, "thinking of phase 2", then reading the conversation of Phil, doling out the jobs list,

I get to wondering, who gets to connect the 3rd phase, to have the layout up and running on A.C.

Bit too industrious for my liking. Seems like a big layout,with that extension.

I will stick to single phase converted to dcc thanks.

[The Stationmaster]

Phil,

 

Coming to your supplementary there are probably a number of answers depending on date.  Evesham - Norton Jcn was singled in late 1971 and although Littleton & Badsey 'box remained for, I think, another 10 years it functioned purely as a level crossing ground frame thus the long section from Evesham to Norton Jcn was in operation from 1971 and in fact had pre-dated the singling by at least two years.

 

Abbotswood Jcn 'box had been closed in March 1969 so at that time Track Circuit Block working applied from Gloucester panel to Norton Jcn and the signal (=Down Branch Home) coming off the main line at Norton Jcn was 370 yards from the signalbox - thus probably  providing a standard 300 yard overlap clear of the junction as it then was (and definitely providing an even longer overlap after the Evesham line was singled) although due to low speed on the curve an even shorter distance would have been permitted for the overlap (the 200yards mentioned by Signal Engineer).

 

What I can't establish is what signals existed on the Evesham line at that time and until the time of singling at Norton Junction or indeed what was on the curve round from Abbotswood prior to it closing although as the section was only around 1400 yards I would be very surprised if it was anything other than Absolute Block.

 

Without access to any detail of the signalling at Norton Jcn back then it is difficult to say exactly what arrangements would have been in place in the time when it was fully semaphore signalled and it depends very much on the presence, or otherwise, of any additional Home Signals (for acceptance purposes) on the lines approaching the junction in the Down direction.  If you happen to have that information, with distances from the signalbox of the relevant signals, I can tell you exactly how it should have been worked.

 

As far as my 1984 scheme goes (or went) it was very much a child of its time - as indeed was my whole plan for the Worcester area (I've got a signalling facilities drawing for it, no money to take it any further) - and thus very much reflecting the then existing train service and whatever developments were foreseen at that time.  In fact I carried a considerable amount of research to establish the impact of converting to parallel single lines between Norton Jcn and Shrub Hill and analysed what had actually happened over something like 4 months at the busiest time of year using signalbox train registers.  The results surprised even me as within the period I looked at one train would have suffered an additional delay of 10 minutes, several would have suffered delays of a minute or two but that was balanced by quite a few more which had been delayed on the current junction layout but which wouldn't be delayed on my proposed layout, plus of course speeds through what had been the junction would have been raised, especially on the Evesham route.   Thus the scheme was authorised and some work actually carried out by local S&T staff but it was then delayed due to shortage of funds and finally cancelled in 1990 - can't win 'em all but it was one of only two 'serious' schemes I came up with for the WR which was never implemented (fortunately as it would be far from suitable for subsequent traffic growth).

 

I had a further stab at Worcester some years later (twice in fact) and by that time the parallel single lines idea was rather outmoded and I was putting stuff in rather than taking it out - especially on the last one which was in connection with the parkway station at you know where which I even proposed could have two platforms on the Evesham line, one of which could be worked as a 'bay' to turn round trains arriving from Worcester and going back that way  (I also had a later go at the Worcester - Oxford route as well and my proposals were not too much different from what eventually happened, which is hardly surprising as it was near the optimum way to do the job within realistic expenditure constraints).

[Phil Bullock]

Hi Mike

 

Many thanks for your highly detailed response - got to be worth a beer or two

 

I am not aware of any signals on the curve from Abbotswood other than Abbotswood's starter and Norton's home - I ll have to nobble some of the local railwaymen next time I see them. I suspect you are right with absolute block.

 

So one more question - would there have been trap points between NJ's home signals and the junction?

 

Kind regards

 

Phil

[TheSignalEngineer]

Regarding signal overlaps on MAS schemes, when I started in 1966 the lengths irrespective of speed were 200 yds for 4-aspect, 300 yds for 3-aspect and 440 yds for 2-aspect with separate 2-aspect distant signals. There were rules for increasing or decreasing lengths where the gradient was steeper than 1 in 260. 

 

At a later date the standard was changed to 200 yds at all red signals in MAS areas, with reduction for speeds of up to 60mph. These varied from 50 yds at 15mph to 150 yds at 60mph.

 

Gloucester PSB was designed at the time when the standard length for the Home signal at Norton Junction would have been 300 yards as quoted above by Mike. Unless the standage length had been critical, e.g. due to a desire to run very long freights via Worcester, there would have been no justification to move the signal closer to the junction when the requirement on distance was reduced to 200 yards.

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Mike

 

Many thanks for your highly detailed response - got to be worth a beer or two

 

I am not aware of any signals on the curve from Abbotswood other than Abbotswood's starter and Norton's home - I ll have to nobble some of the local railwaymen next time I see them. I suspect you are right with absolute block.

 

So one more question - would there have been trap points between NJ's home signals and the junction?

 

Kind regards

 

Phil

I would be very surprised if there were any trap points Phil - it was a line signalled to passenger standards as a through block section hence no traps (even before HMRI came to the interesting decision that as trap points had a habit of derailing passenger trains they should be avoided on passenger lines and what few there nationally were should be removed  ).

 

The other thing about Abbotswood is to consider how its use has changed over the years.  Going way back the route Pontypool Road - Hereford - Worcester - Oxford was the important route for coal out of South Wales towards the London area, this changed after the Severn Tunnel had been opened and that change was complete when the Badminton line opened.  And of course it was the OW&W main route as well then became a relatively important GW route serving both Worcester & Hereford but still retaining importance for some traffic to the West Midlands.  Among all of that the connection from Abbotswood to Norton Jcn was small beer - it allowed a few train off the Midalad mainline to serve Worcester.

 

Gradually it all changed - the OW&W was rundown, its freight traffic had vanished, loss of the connections at Honeybourne removed various diversionary options, it was singled, and it became a sort of local line with occasional through trains.  Meanwhile the opposite was happening with the Abbotswood to Norton Jcn connection as it gained in importance and traffic levels grew.  In 1984 it would have been simple to have a single line railway from Shrub Hill to Abbotswood Jcn - now that it probably unthinkable.  

 

The signalling at Norton Jcn would have reflected the time during which it was installed - main line to Evesham and a low use link round the corner to the Midland/LMS route.

[Phil Bullock]

Thanks for the excellent perspective Mike am up in Edinburgh at moment but when I get home I will post a link to a photo that reinforces your Pontypool road comment.

 

The balance of trains through the area based on the 71/72 wtt is as follows:

 

92 southbound, 87 northbound. 8 southbound - 6 class 8 and 2 class 6 are timed via Honeybourne and Toddington. Of the remaining 84 one third arrive at Abbotswood via Norton. Norton therefore sends no more than 10 trains a day via Evesham and over 30 via Abbotswood. The latter includes traffic that would previously have gone via Evesham including 7E15 and 1B01 - freight to Stratford and the Paddington vans.

 

So although the OWW has always been the main line at Norton by this time the run down of services had reduced them to nearly their lowest level ever although worse was to follow - I suspect as part of building a complete closure case - when some worcester to Paddingtons were timed via Cheltenham.

 

Many thanks again for the extremely informative gen

 

Kind regards Phil

[Phil Bullock]

This ones for The Stationmaster - Pontypool Road Loco at Norton Junction, scroll down to photo of 7201

 

http://www.miac.org.uk/mickrock2.html#gwr7201

 

Caption is incorrect - Castle is on an up class 1, not down.

 

Cheers

 

Phil

Edited November 16, 2015 by Phil Bullock

[The Stationmaster]

This ones for The Stationmaster - Pontypool Road Loco at Norton Junction

 

http://www.miac.org.uk/mickrock2.html#gwr7201

 

Caption is incorrect - Castle is on an up class 1, not down.

 

Cheers

 

Phil

Assuming the caption writer has got it right about an 'Outer Home Signal' on the Down Evesham Line at Norton Jcn then the working is a lot simpler to suss out because it means that the Norton Junction Signal,man could simultaneously accept a train from both the Evesham direction and from Abbotswood Jcn.  But the one from Abbotswood Jcn would either have to be at a stand at the Home Signal, or have gone on its way, before the one from the Evesham direction would be permitted to pass the 'outer Home Signal' (and vice versa).

 

As an aside the Western did not have such things as 'outer Home Signals' - its outermost stop signal for the block section in rear was always called the Home Signal.

[Phil Bullock]

Thanks Mike

 

I think I would want to see a signal box diagram before I accepted the caption description of that signal.

 

Meanwhile have been thinking about bridges....

 

The road over rail bridge by the box at Norton is rarely photted - the one poor shot of mine has some nice traction however...

 

 

This has possibilities but the wings are wrong ....

 

http://thebradnorbranchline.co.uk/Roadover4.html

 

Discussions initiated with the manufacturer!

 

Kind regards

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ramblin Rich]

Interesting!

Thanks Phil for posting that link, let us know how the negotiations go the models look very good & I do wonder if a North Devon line 3 arch bridge might be feasible....

[Phil Bullock]

Ha ha nice idea Rich but somewhat stretching modellers licence I suspect

 

Emailed Bradnor Branchlines at 11 last night - email from Jon in the in box this morning with some very strong possibilities, will share photos when they arrive

 

How is that for service? We are so lucky to have folks like Jon in the modelling industry...

 

Phil

[Phil Bullock]

Interesting!

Thanks Phil for posting that link, let us know how the negotiations go the models look very good & I do wonder if a North Devon line 3 arch bridge might be feasible....

 

Although I do admit I would love to incorporate this three arch bridge somewhere....

 

http://thebradnorbranchline.co.uk/Rivlug1.html

 

Phil

[colin penfold]

Hi Phil,

 

I'm no expert with Photoshop but is this better?

 

[Phil Bullock]

Certainly is thanks Colin!

 

Phil

[Nobby (John)]

I've made it a bit lighter, hope it helps

Edited November 17, 2015 by Nobby (John)

[Phil Bullock]

Some more thinking! Dangerous I know but something else that will be very nice to model on Phase 2

 

https://www.warmemorialsonline.org.uk/node/140618

 

Is located under the Lane of Church lane on the map

 

https://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=52.16386~-2.193664&style=h&lvl=14&sp=Point.52.16386_-2.193664_Norton%2C%20Worcestershire___&ignoreoptin=1

 

Will have to make the road and railway curve round so that this is situated in the front corner of board 2E - see board plan on previous page, village will have to be rather compressed as the scenic boundary will be the motorway bridge on the upper edge of the same board

 

Phil

Edited November 17, 2015 by Phil Bullock

[Phil Bullock]

I've made it a bit lighter, hope it helps

image.jpeg

 

Thanks John much more detail visible now!

 

Kind regards

 

Phil

[Phil Bullock]

Heres Jon's suggestion...

 

 

Remove the existing straight wing walls and substitute the alternatives in the photo with a bit of surgery...

 

And Robert is your father's brother....

 

That should be brilliant, thanks again Jon

 

Phil

Edited November 17, 2015 by Phil Bullock

[Ramblin Rich]

Interesting!

Thanks Phil for posting that link, let us know how the negotiations go the models look very good & I do wonder if a North Devon line 3 arch bridge might be feasible....

 

 

Ha ha nice idea Rich but somewhat stretching modellers licence I suspect

 

Emailed Bradnor Branchlines at 11 last night - email from Jon in the in box this morning with some very strong possibilities, will share photos when they arrive

 

How is that for service? We are so lucky to have folks like Jon in the modelling industry...

 

Phil

 

Sorry Phil, being slightly selfish as the North Devon bridge would be meant for my use! 

The low 3 arch 'mediaeval' bridge looks very typical of river crossings all over the country.

[Phil Bullock]

Woo hoo!

 

Announcement from Hornby

 

http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/new-for-2016/br-20-ton-coke-wagon-3-3.html

 

That's the Llantrisant - Kingswingford Junction working sorted then

 

Phil

[Phil Bullock]

Just been looking at

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/105444-Hornby-announce-the-br-20-ton-coke-wagon/

 

and

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85490-on-shenston-road-views-from-the-park/page-4&do=findComment&comment=1731435

 

So what we have is a diagram 150 - was it only the diagram 152s that had the Pensnett branding I wonder?

 

Phil

[Downendian]

I thought you'd be delighted Phil re the Coke hoppers. A similar working rumbled through Patchwsy in the early 1970s en route to Avonmouth. I will certainly be buying a rake too, a fabulous choice Hornby.

Neil

[Phil Bullock]

And now look!!!

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/105484-news-summary-from-warley-2015/

 

Heljan doing an 00 Class B 35ton tanker - that's the Soho Pools taken care of too....

 

Could be an expensive year - Bobol E please someone?

 

Phil

Edited November 27, 2015 by Phil Bullock

[Guest bri.s]

Woo hoo!

 

Announcement from Hornby

 

http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/new-for-2016/br-20-ton-coke-wagon-3-3.html

 

That's the Llantrisant - Kingswingford Junction working sorted then

 

Phil

Lucky you 00 lot lol I'd love a rake of them coke hoppers lol

It's about time they were done though

 

Brian

[Phil Bullock]

We had better get working on the shrink/enlarger ray I think Brian!

 

You have got the Bobol Es though from DJM.....

 

Phil