RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted October 26, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) Cotswold show this coming weekend. Starting to get sorted - all known faults from GETS sorted, a loose wire and a couple of displaced tortoises addressed New power in the form of D163 LADY - not the original Bacchy version, our own redo with the correct shaped panel on her GSYP livery Cheers Phil Edited October 26, 2015 by Phil Bullock 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mswjr Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Glad,I have just read that,I like that show,and was unsure of the date,and now i can see your layout in the flesh,see you there,(im not as scary as i look ) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted October 26, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2015 Glad,I have just read that,I like that show,and was unsure of the date,and now i can see your layout in the flesh,see you there,(im not as scary as i look ) That's a good job - its Halloween on Saturday hee hee. Please come and say hello.... Meanwhile heres that yellow panel - D156 GSYP on left, D163 economy GSYP on right Kind regards Phil 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PjKing1 Posted October 26, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2015 Good luck with the show Phil, I'm going to have to get my act together and make sure I come to one of your outings next year. Cheers, Paul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted October 26, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2015 You know you are always welcome matey! How about a weekend in Wigan in October next year? Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigwife007 Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Hi Phil, great to see the layout in action and the quality of the stock you had running at the Cotswold show. Very much apreciate your hints and tips in getting my Bachmann dcc sound 40s to run better. Thanks Dan 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted November 9, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) So starting off with a general arrangement to try and get the concept correct.... Phase 2 boards.xlsx Phil Edited November 9, 2015 by Phil Bullock 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold colin penfold Posted November 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 9, 2015 Blimey Phil, that's what I call an extension. That's an extra two layouts you are adding to your existing one! Looking forward to it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted November 9, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 9, 2015 Hee hee thanks Colin A full length train has to fit between the two junctions with clearance...that drives the size, hence the thought going in.... Which begs a question...how much clearance is needed? It must surely be acceptable for a train to wait at Norton Junction's home on the chord from Abbotswood whilst a train passes over the junction from the Oxford direction...shouldn't it? Cheers Phil 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bri.s Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 That's some extension and I'm definitely looking forward to how you get on with the build and seeing it finished Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted November 9, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 9, 2015 Cheers Brian.... Will need a 4 man crew at least! In effect two separate circuits connected by fiddle yard at back and ABJ to NJ chord at the front. We need somewhere to run the warships .... Phil 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted November 9, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 9, 2015 Hi Phil You must have been too close to that Dagworth bloke to start coming up with ideas of a VERY BIG train set. A couple of questions. Are you going to borrow the Ravensclyffe tent to keep it dry? Warships running, what is that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted November 9, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 9, 2015 Hi Clive We have a tent of Ravensclyffe proportions... the only problem is its more of a Californian summer gazebo than a British summer waterproof tent.... There is a cunning plan afoot to redo the garden with a couple of more waterproof options over hard standing but that is for the future Any way who wants waterproof with Warships? Hee hee and no we aren't erecting catenary....and I hoped if it was that big it would be a model railway not a train set....!!!!!! Contemplating a big cheat and buying ready to go baseboards, at least for the scenic section (boards 2A to 2E) Phil 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted November 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 9, 2015 Hee hee thanks Colin A full length train has to fit between the two junctions with clearance...that drives the size, hence the thought going in.... Which begs a question...how much clearance is needed? It must surely be acceptable for a train to wait at Norton Junction's home on the chord from Abbotswood whilst a train passes over the junction from the Oxford direction...shouldn't it? Cheers Phil It would be OK for one train to come up to the Home signal and be at a stand then to let a train across in front of it, but not to have two moving trains approaching the signals protecting the junction at the same time unless there is a full overlap clear to the fouling point. That would put an extra 8.5 feet onto the layout length. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted November 10, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) It would be OK for one train to come up to the Home signal and be at a stand then to let a train across in front of it, but not to have two moving trains approaching the signals protecting the junction at the same time unless there is a full overlap clear to the fouling point. That would put an extra 8.5 feet onto the layout length. Many thanks - that's how I perceived it - train has to be held at home signal on one route before other can be cleared for conflicting move. How would that work with the interlocking in the box I wonder? Would detection be by track circuit or fouling bars - or some other means? For those unfamiliar with the area heres the signalling infrastructure as it currently stands - the Cotswold line was singled in 1971 making Norton a single track junction although double track has now been reinstated along most of the route http://www.roscalen.com/signals/Worcester/NortonJct.htm Trains coming up from Abbotswood come around the curve from the right - in semaphore days the home protecting the junction from that direction was on the embankment on the outside - ie wrong side - of the line - just about behind the signal box chimney in the first picture on http://www.miac.org.uk/norton.html Cheers Phil Edited November 10, 2015 by Phil Bullock Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PjKing1 Posted November 10, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2015 You know you are always welcome matey! How about a weekend in Wigan in October next year? Phil Sounds good to me Phil it's just up the road, you can come an have a play on ELJ if it's up an running Cheers, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PjKing1 Posted November 10, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2015 Love the plan Phil good luck with phase 2 can't wait to see how you get on with this!! I'm sure you said you were going to have build your track to Cheers, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted November 10, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2015 Many thanks - that's how I perceived it - train has to be held at home signal on one route before other can be cleared for conflicting move. How would that work with the interlocking in the box I wonder? Would detection be by track circuit or fouling bars - or some other means? At the time when Gloucester PSB was built, if the protecting signal was at least 200 yards from the fouling point of the junction a train from Cheltenham could have a free run up to the signal. If the overlap was less than 200 yards the berth track of the signal would lock the junction points until it had been occupied for a time before the route from Evesham could be used. Back to the days of when the signalman had to think about what was the best order to do things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted November 10, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Many thanks Mr S.E. - very useful gen Quite like this aerial view https://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=52.16386~-2.193664&style=h&lvl=14&sp=Point.52.16386_-2.193664_Norton%2C%20Worcestershire___&ignoreoptin=1 Phil Edited November 10, 2015 by Phil Bullock Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted November 10, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2015 Love the plan Phil good luck with phase 2 can't wait to see how you get on with this!! I'm sure you said you were going to have build your track to Cheers, Paul Hmmmmmmm - are you sure I didn't say Id have to ask you to build it???? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted November 10, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2015 Picking out the shadows on Google Earth it would appear that Norton Junction's Home signal coming from Cheltenham is well over 200 yards from the junction, possibly 200 yards from where a double junction would be located. The home signal from Evesham is about 600 yards away fron the signal box. In this situation it would be permissible for a train to approach one of the signals when a train was crossing the junction. Because of compression of the layout to get things to fit the signals within the scenic area, it would be necessary to hold a train at one signal before a train could proceed from the other if the operation was to look right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 11, 2015 At the time when Gloucester PSB was built, if the protecting signal was at least 200 yards from the fouling point of the junction a train from Cheltenham could have a free run up to the signal. If the overlap was less than 200 yards the berth track of the signal would lock the junction points until it had been occupied for a time before the route from Evesham could be used. Back to the days of when the signalman had to think about what was the best order to do things. Ah, my 1984 scheme would have solved it with no problem - no physical junction and parallel single lines to Shrub Hill thus trains could approach on both routes simultaneously. I'm fairly sure from the work I was doing on Worcester back then that there was no problem with a train being accepted from Evesham at the same time as one was approaching the Down Branch Home Signal and vice versa. The situation at Norton Junction is rather unusual in the Down direction as there is a long block section from Evesham on the Oxford route (11 miles until the more recent works on that route) and the line from Gloucester panel (Abbotswood Jcn) is worked under Track Circuit Block Regulations. The latter means that (unless he sends the emergency bell signal - 6 bells) the Signalman at Abbotswood Jcn has no influence over a train approaching from Abbotswood as I don't think he has a slot on the junction signal - a train can approach his Home Signal at any time provided the overlap is clear, and the overlap track circuit ends short of the crossover which would be used by a train coming from Evesham. Equally because of the long section there needs to be no restraint on the Norton Jcn Signalman accepting a train from Evesham - irrespective of what is approaching from Abbotswood and he won't know if either approaching train has stopped at the appropriate Home Signal unless he keeps a keen eye on his track circuits and estimates how long it will be before the train reaches the signal. There is no chance of a train from Evesham hitting one from Abbotswood if it overruns the signal but the opposite of course is not true - but the Down Branch Home has always had AWS and I expect both these signals now have TPWS. So the situation is not quite like the normal Absolute Block junction signalling arrangement because of the above factors 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted November 11, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 11, 2015 Mike Knew you would have the gen - may thanks for your highly informative comments - can see the logic of your 1984 scheme but wonder how it would fare now the traffic levels are somewhat higher? And what a shame the northern exits from the OWW to Wolverhampton have been lost - the route could have bypassed Birmingham for freight from the South Coast heading up the WCML. Do your comments re trains over-running signals relate to the current single lead arrangement or to the original double track junction we will be building I wonder? The logic of having to clear the long section from Evesham regardless certainly makes sense as on the prototype any train waiting at Abbotswood for this would have to stand on the Up main - on our model at least we have an up loop that freight could use... Kind regards Phil 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted November 11, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 11, 2015 Picking out the shadows on Google Earth it would appear that Norton Junction's Home signal coming from Cheltenham is well over 200 yards from the junction, possibly 200 yards from where a double junction would be located. The home signal from Evesham is about 600 yards away fron the signal box. In this situation it would be permissible for a train to approach one of the signals when a train was crossing the junction. Because of compression of the layout to get things to fit the signals within the scenic area, it would be necessary to hold a train at one signal before a train could proceed from the other if the operation was to look right. Many thanks - can see the shadow you mean and yes suspect that is the current home signal - but in semaphore days it was much closer to the junction on the opposite side of the track - have been trying to find a photo but suspect it was about where that strange shaped building is. Also wonder if the chord from ABJ had permissive block working to allow two trains to be held - would that arrangement be allowed on passenger running lines? Kind regards Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PjKing1 Posted November 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 11, 2015 Hmmmmmmm - are you sure I didn't say Id have to ask you to build it???? Errrrrr no you defo said you were looking forward to having a go building track Good luck Cheers, Paul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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