How common were Steam-heat trains on the LMR into London Euston following Electrification

[GordonC]

I saw a photo in the recent Traction magazine of a Class 25 at the bufferstops of London Euston on a rake of Mark 1 coaches, obviously with steam heating in use with a couple of leaks in the first couple of coaches. The photo was undated, but I wouldn't really have expected much steam heat stock to have been in use there in presumably late 70s early 80s with so many AC electric locos in use.

 

So was there still much steam heat stock in use into London Euston in those days or would it have likely to be a relief or charter rake perhaps?

 

 

[stovepipe]

I imagine the mk1 stock was dual heated, and as the 25s were used for ECS and parcels work they could have preheated the stock until the AC electric came on to the head. Even though most principle passenger destinations were served with air conditioned stock, a few odd workings to lesser destinations persisted with older stock into the 1980s. There were also parcels and overnight services which would potentially have needed to be preheated before departure.

[Nearholmer]

I well recall late night departures to Crewe (at least that was where I used to get off) in the 70s and early-80s with steam heated stock. It is probably false memory syndrome, but I seem to remember steam heat being used all the way - surely the electric locos didn't have boilers, did they?

 

Snapshot memory of the train stopping to load mail bags at Stafford, a long stop, on a warm night, with heating full on, and a chap emerging onto the platform to mop his brow and take the air, still wearing a hairnet, to keep his "footballers perm" in good order!

 

K

[stovepipe]

To my knowledge the only boilered electric locos in this country where the EM2s, some EM1s, the three Raworth/SR electrics, and possibly E2001.

 

Snapshot memory of the train stopping to load mail bags at Stafford, a long stop, on a warm night, with heating full on, and a chap emerging onto the platform to mop his brow and take the air, still wearing a hairnet, to keep his "footballers perm" in good order!

K

 

Train heading for Liverpool presumably.....

[Nearholmer]

I can't think how you guessed; it was indeed.

 

K

[D854_Tiger]

Strictly speaking even the first build of mk2 carriages were dual heated so steam heated stock must have been quite common, even if the steam heating wasn't used, not sure about the mk2 Pullman stock though.

 

After  1967, diesel worked trains into Euston were actually quite rare, even the sleeper that headed off to the Midland Main Line was electric worked as far as Northampton.

 

So the stock turned up, especially on services that would have been diesel hauled some of the way (North Wales, Blackpool, Barrow and the Cambrian) but 100% electric worked into Euston.

 

Put it this way a diesel into Euston usually made the Railway Magazine motive power workings section as it meant some kind of failure.

 

Indeed back in those days diesel working under the wires was frowned upon pretty much everywhere, even a Birmingham - Glasgow or North Wales working would have been electric worked as far as Crewe before giving way to diesel.

[keefer]

the mk2 Pullman ETH setup was such that it could ​only​ be worked by AC electric locos

IIRC there were instructions in the General Appendix or similar - Might be due to sensitve circuits that needed a more constant supply than the diesels could manage (I'm sure the reasons why are in the Harris mk2 book)

It wasn't until their last years, possibly when there was only one whole set in use (after many cars were withdrawn due to asbestos content), that the vehicles were modified so they could take ETH from diesels

 

Just remembered, they were vacuum brake only too

[david.hill64]

[quote name="D854_Tiger" post="2406065" timestamp="1471632110

 

Put it this way a diesel into Euston usually made the Railway Magazine motive power workings section as it meant some kind of failure

.

 

Ah yes: the famous case of the class 58 that managed to keep time. That caused much headscratching in Derby.

[Fat Controller]

the mk2 Pullman ETH setup was such that it could ​only​ be worked by AC electric locos

IIRC there were instructions in the General Appendix or similar - Might be due to sensitve circuits that needed a more constant supply than the diesels could manage (I'm sure the reasons why are in the Harris mk2 book)

It wasn't until their last years, possibly when there was only one whole set in use (after many cars were withdrawn due to asbestos content), that the vehicles were modified so they could take ETH from diesels

 

Just remembered, they were vacuum brake only too

It wasn't just the Pullman stock, but all the Mk 2 stock used on the WCML, IIRC. It was something to do with the supply voltage, which was different on the AC electrics to the ETH-fitted diesels, I believe.

[Edwin_m]

It wasn't just the Pullman stock, but all the Mk 2 stock used on the WCML, IIRC. It was something to do with the supply voltage, which was different on the AC electrics to the ETH-fitted diesels, I believe.

Really?  I know 47401-420 and class 55 couldn't operate certain Mk2 aircons, which were kept well away from the Eastern in consequence, but never heard of any restriction relating to other diesels. 

[Fat Controller]

Really?  I know 47401-420 and class 55 couldn't operate certain Mk2 aircons, which were kept well away from the Eastern in consequence, but never heard of any restriction relating to other diesels. 

That might be what I was remembering, as I can remember later 47/4 conversions doing drags, and working trains that went off the end of the 25kV, such as the Holyhead workings.

[Gwiwer]

Were not some trains which changed loco (usually at Crewe or Preston) dual-heated and used steam when behind the diesel but electric heat when being powered from the knitting?  I am thinking particularly of the Mk1 formation which worked the 20.00 Barrow - Euston and which set off behind a 40 on most occasions I was aboard.  I'm pretty sure it was steam heated until the "leccy" took over at Crewe.

[stovepipe]

The coaches which shouldn't be heated by class 55s and generator class 47s were the Mk2D FOs 3189-3216, FKs 13585-13610, BFKs 14162-14172, and all Mk2Es. This was because they needed an 800v ETH supply. This fact still gets overlooked today, and I can think of 2 railtours I've been on with Deltics, with no ETH/air con to the FO I was sitting in for this very reason.

[D854_Tiger]

Were not some trains which changed loco (usually at Crewe or Preston) dual-heated and used steam when behind the diesel but electric heat when being powered from the knitting?  I am thinking particularly of the Mk1 formation which worked the 20.00 Barrow - Euston and which set off behind a 40 on most occasions I was aboard.  I'm pretty sure it was steam heated until the "leccy" took over at Crewe.

 

Quite possibly, however mk2 stock worked off the wires as well.

 

Specifically, prior to 1974ish (????), Euston - Glasgow trains were composed of mk2 stock, electric hauled from Euston and class 50 (x2) hauled north of Crewe and I believe class 50s were only ever ETH fitted.

 

However, it wasn't unknown for some of those trains to be hauled by other diesel classes north of Crewe.

[Edwin_m]

Were not some trains which changed loco (usually at Crewe or Preston) dual-heated and used steam when behind the diesel but electric heat when being powered from the knitting?  I am thinking particularly of the Mk1 formation which worked the 20.00 Barrow - Euston and which set off behind a 40 on most occasions I was aboard.  I'm pretty sure it was steam heated until the "leccy" took over at Crewe.

This seems likely, as no Class 40 ever had ETH.

[Edwin_m]

Quite possibly, however mk2 stock worked off the wires as well.

 

Specifically, prior to 1974ish (????), Euston - Glasgow trains were composed of mk2 stock, electric hauled from Euston and class 50 (x2) hauled north of Crewe and I believe class 50s were only ever ETH fitted.

 

However, it wasn't unknown for some of those trains to be hauled by other diesel classes north of Crewe.

Depends on the "flavour" of Mk2.  The original series (retrospectively known as 2z) were dual-heated and I think 2a, 2b and 2c were too.  The aircon types from 2d onwards were ETH only. 

[Phil Bullock]

This seems likely, as no Class 40 ever had ETH.

 

Hmm never say never!

 

See the CFPS web site http://www.cfps.co.uk/class40story.htm

 

Amongst the various detail differences in the batches, experiments were tried out on some locos. Most notable of these was probably D255, delivered in 1960. In addition to a steam heat generator it had an auxiliary generator for electric train heating (ETH). This equipment was removed after running trials and no other 40's ever had this modification.

 

Phil

 

 

[Bomag]

Depends on the "flavour" of Mk2.  The original series (retrospectively known as 2z) were dual-heated and I think 2a, 2b and 2c were too.  The aircon types from 2d onwards were ETH only. 

 

Two batches of Mk2z FKs were steam heat only and one batch (to the southern) was electric only. The remaining non a/c Mk2s were dual heated.

[roythebus]

I worked at Rugby as a secondman in 1974/75, there were no steam heated trains from euston that I ever worked. The AC locos were not boiler fitted and the secondmen on the western lines at that time were not trained on boilers. AFAK none of the late 25s we had were boiler fitted though the earlier ones were. 

 

Maybe the difference in ETH supplies was not so much as to voltage, but ETH index that a loco could provide, and whether the loco provided ac or dc. The early 47s "generators" as the nickname implies would generate, dc. But I speculate as we were not told of the differences in ETH as secondmen, just how to put the jumpers up.

[Clive Mortimore]

Back in the bad old days the LMR had some steam heat vans, these were converted ex LMS period II steel bodied BGs. They would be bunged in between the loco and the train to keep the people warm. Used mainly on inter-regional trains They were withdrawn when the regions started to supply dual heat coaches for the inter regional trains. Two of these vans were later parked outside St Pancras for many years.