How many 16 ton mineral wagons are left?

[t8hants]

I have always had a soft spot for 16 ton mineral wagons,and as I understand it it was their scrapping that allowed the remaining steam locos to slip into preservation, as 'the' yard was too busy cutting up trucks.

So i was wondering just how many of the humble 16 tonner made it into preservation, I assume there aren't any still earning their keep.

Could the national stock make a reasonable size train?

[asmay2002]

The GCR Windcutter project http://www.gcrailway.co.uk/the-railway/rolling-stock/windcutter-wagons/ set out to be able to recreate just such a mineral train.  There are others around but the GCR is the only place you will find them in numbers.

[TheSignalEngineer]

The Vintage Carriages Trust website lists about 100 in the wagon survey.

Edited September 10, 2016 by TheSignalEngineer

[t8hants]

Thanks for the replies, the GCR Windcutter is new to me so thats very interesting.

I am also surprised there may be as many as 100 still around.

Living on the IoW which was a 16 tonner free zone they were very much a symbol of holidays, which I spent watching them go thundering up and down the Vale of Neath, or sneaking down into the screens at Resolven to watch them being made up into trains.

[jonny777]

I find it sad that only 100 have survived out of the hundreds of thousands which were built; but I suppose being open and of steel construction they were prime candidates for rapid corrosion.

 

I think it is rather a shame that our 'heritage' lines cannot each muster up a decent number of 16 tonners for some shunting demonstrations on gala days.

[t8hants]

There must be many a preserved line who owe their pet loco(s) very existence to the 16 tonner.

 

It is so often the case with the common and mundane that you don't notice their passing until they have almost gone.

 

Preserved line goods trains are wonderful to see, but they are almost a 'loss leader' as they cannot generate per wagon the same income as passenger carrier

[stovepipe]

And in a similar vein, there aren't many HAA MGR hoppers left either. I think less than 20 out of a fleet of over 10,000.

[Gwiwer]

The humble 16 tonner was battered and bruised in traffic and often in a pretty average condition.  Not your prime candidate for preservation added to the fact that photo-charters aside they cannot earn any money.  The GCR has recognised their importance and relevance to that area and has saved a decent number but as reported in the Railway Magazine some time ago their upkeep is far from guaranteed as even in preservation they don't attract nearly as many friends nor Pounds as the carriages and the locomotives.

[Fat Controller]

Sadly, they're not a type of vehicle that any preservation society could find a practical use for; vans can serve as storage, low-sided opens for ballast and so on, but the 16 tonner is really only of use in demonstration trains. They're not even much use for storing coal in, as the bottoms of the sides rust through very quickly; I've known them be pulled apart when being unloaded with electro-magnets in steel-works scrap bays.

There are now fewer 16 tonners in existence than I would count in my demurrage report of wagons standing at British Steel Landore on a typical day in the early 1970s.

[Gwiwer]

Sadly, they're not a type of vehicle that any preservation society could find a practical use for; vans can serve as storage, low-sided opens for ballast and so on, but the 16 tonner is really only of use in demonstration trains. They're not even much use for storing coal in, as the bottoms of the sides rust through very quickly; I've known them be pulled apart when being unloaded with electro-magnets in steel-works scrap bays.

There are now fewer 16 tonners in existence than I would count in my demurrage report of wagons standing at British Steel Landore on a typical day in the early 1970s.

 

 

Fewer than in a typical coal train.  And just the same has occurred with the mgr HAA type as stovepipe notes.  There are fewer left in existence than once formed a typical mgr train.

[big jim]

Thanks for the replies, the GCR Windcutter is new to me so thats very interesting.

.

It was out last weekend at the gala, my vid below starts with the train departing Loughborough, I would have liked to have videoed it lineside somewhere but missed it a few times with different locks up front, glad I caught I with the 9F though

 

https://youtu.be/BnCG1CFViC8

[Jenny Emily]

I recall one found recently in the canal basin near Ellenbrook when this was drained pending turning into a trendy marina? There may be others that have long since been written off, lurking in bushes, down the sides of embankments after rough shunts, left behind in former rail served factories or buried in former ballast dumps.

[TheSignalEngineer]

There may be others that have long since been written off, lurking in bushes, down the sides of embankments after rough shunts, left behind in former rail served factories or buried in former ballast dumps.

I posted a shot some time ago of the old RAF site at Hartlebury, where Google Earth shows three box vans and (I think) a 3-plank which I photographed there in 1995. The Google image dates are April and June 2016

[Wheatley]

stovepipe, on 10 Sept 2016 - 11:55, said:stovepipe, on 10 Sept 2016 - 11:55, said:

And in a similar vein, there aren't many HAA MGR hoppers left either. I think less than 20 out of a fleet of over 10,000.

But including, possibly uniquely, the first ever and last ever built.

Edited September 10, 2016 by Wheatley

[Reorte]

And in a similar vein, there aren't many HAA MGR hoppers left either. I think less than 20 out of a fleet of over 10,000.

Seems odd to think that there are more 16 ton wagons around nowdays than HAA hoppers, considering how common a sight the latter were until not that long ago at all.

[russ p]

Unfortunately with both these types with the exception of the GCR ones they come up against the preservation train set mentality, if they didn't have GWR or the like on them a lot of preserved railways aren't interested and the port MGR has no chance as history stops in 1968 on a lot of railways.

Good BR standard wagons are still seen as disposable on some railways which use the chassis's for stupid recreation projects of useless wagon types

[soony]

And in a similar vein, there aren't many HAA MGR hoppers left either. I think less than 20 out of a fleet of over 10,000.

Went to Chasewater light Railway yesterday and spotted about 8 there , mainly at Chasewater Heaths station sidings.. Got a few pics of them , but didnt note any numbers.. was just pottering rather than spotting.

[Fat Controller]

There was a solitary fitted 16-tonner (not sure if it was an MCV or MXV) which cropped up for about a decade on the annual list of wagons in service that Bob Wallace use to produce for 'Rail' from TOPS returns; presumably, in reality, it had long-since been scrapped, but no-one had recorded this.

[Classsix T]

Railway modelling keeps alive what the preservation movement can't, or won't.

 

I shan't go into the nitty-gritty of the astute observations the posters above have made, suffice to say bums on seats make moolah at yer local "step back in time to the golden age of rail" cobblers venue, not the recreation of the actual cargo vehicles that extended the life of the typical branchline beyond pax service so the line could actually be saved by the people purporting to....you get the picture.

 

C6T.

[Hesperus]

Unfortunately with both these types with the exception of the GCR ones they come up against the preservation train set mentality, if they didn't have GWR or the like on them a lot of preserved railways aren't interested and the port MGR has no chance as history stops in 1968 on a lot of railways.

Good BR standard wagons are still seen as disposable on some railways which use the chassis's for stupid recreation projects of useless wagon types

 

I can think of a few wagons that have 'donated' thier running gear to pre grouping coaches where only the body survived but I can't think there are many people who would describe these as stupid projects.  Could you enlighten us as to which projects you mean?

 

MGR's were always going to be a tricky thing to represent in preservation as they don't look right on thier own. There was a well documented appeal by the C56PS to raise funds to buy a dozen or so but they only raised enough to buy 2. Perhaps folk would like to support them and the Chasewater railway to save the last few http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/81275-mgr-appeal/page-2

[russ p]

Without wanting to offend people I won't mention the actual ones but I know of a pipe and a tube that were used in the last ten years for their chassis for a coach and a van.

While this does make the vehicles moveable they are no way representative of how the vehicles originally were.

I would rather see the vehicles in a freight train representation

[DaveF]

When discussing preservation of goods vehicles perhaps we should remember that they will produce very little income for the owners - be they a preserved railway or an individual.

 

They may provide a small income from charters and they may be usable for engineering works.

 

A goods train looks nice on a gala day, but the only revenue attributable to it is if any extra people come along and ride on trains or spend in the shop/cafe because of the goods train operation.

 

A railway, or individual, can only preserve what they can afford to buy and then maintain , hopefully for ever.

 

Anything that does not earn an income greater than its costs is a drain on finances.

 

This is one of the reasons why not very many vehicles which will not earn money are preserved (and looked after once preserved).

 

 

David

Edited September 13, 2016 by DaveF

[russ p]

The irony of this is that the coach fitted with the tube chassis was unusable due to terrible ride quality!

Which with a chassis designed for a freight vehicles could have been expected. CCT chassis are often used for such conversations but they are a passenger rated vehicle

[PatB]

There was a solitary fitted 16-tonner (not sure if it was an MCV or MXV) which cropped up for about a decade on the annual list of wagons in service that Bob Wallace use to produce for 'Rail' from TOPS returns; presumably, in reality, it had long-since been scrapped, but no-one had recorded this.

Probably, but isn't it so much nicer to imagine that it might have led a fugitive existence, roaming the network, hiding in obscure sidings then moving on, attached surreptitiously to suitably braked trains by sympathetic staff .

Edited September 14, 2016 by PatB

[Bedders]

Probably, but isn't it so much nicer to imagine that it might have led a fugitive existence, roaming the network, hiding in obscure sidings then moving on, attached surreptitiously to suitably braked trains my sympathetic staff .

 

"Today, still wanted by the scrapyard, it survives as a wagon of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find it, maybe you can hire... the 16-tonner"