Updating 'Nellie'

[Nearholmer]

David

 

Alternative way to think about this:

 

- Variac and PWM controllers, if properly rated for the loads on offer, act almost exactly as constant voltage sources (at any given setting), having very low internal impedance. So, as the load at the motor varies (gradient; curvature causing extra friction; adding an extra coach to the train etc), output voltage, and hence speed, stay sensibly the same, but current varies;

 

- This applies without feedback, which I tend to think is a bit of an unnecessary refinement in many model railway applications, and sometimes causes more problems than it solves;

 

- Rheostat controllers, especially when operating at the "low speed" end, with lots of resistance in circuit, are very much not constant voltage sources. As even a minor change in loading at the motor occurs, causing a minor change to speed, back EMF, and current in the circuit, the voltage at the controller output terminals changes, and a new equilibrium of current, speed and voltage is arrived at. All of which might be happening often, perhaps as a train transits a sharp crossover, leading to in-constant low speed operation. Matters are particularly bad in the case of a small motor, with no added flywheel and hence hardly any inertia, and which is geared too high for the application, such as in dear old Nellie.

 

Returning to the question that we were asked, "Will adding a fixed resistor in circuit help?", I think the answers are:

 

- with a Variac or PWM controller without feedback, no. If it is a relatively low resistance, perhaps of the order of magnitude of the resistance of the wiring and rails between controller and motor, it will simply slow things down a bit at all controller settings, but it won't improve "controllability". If it is a high resistance, it will cause the circuit to behave as per one with a rheostat controller;

 

- with a PWM controller with feedback, no. The feedback action will simply compensate for the presence of the extra resistance; and,

 

- with a rheostat controller, no. In order to get the motor to turn at all, one will have to 'turn up' the rheostat, to take out of circuit a resistance equivalent to that which has been added-in, beyond which everything is the same as if it wasn't there.

 

By the way, have you had a play with an old model train with wound-field, as opposed to permanent magnet motor, controlled using a rheostat? If the loco and its train are fairly heavy, it is almost exactly like driving a real old-style tram or train, because one has to "notch up" and "notch down" to compensate for curve-friction, gradients etc ......... brilliant fun!

 

Kevin

[hayfield]

One thought I have had regarding one of the locos with the early chassis (with metal bar sides), is to completely rebuild the chassis and fit a decen set of wheels, motor and gears

 

The idea being is to drill out the rivets, cut down the cast metal  spacers to provide enough room for either a gear box or motor mount and bush the holes to fit 1/8" bearings,

 

Replacing the wheels with either Gibson's or Markits. Use either a slimline Highlevel gearbox or one of the motor mounts

 

This step I have not thought about, which is brake blocks and cylinder, which then could lead to some valve gear?. Gibson plastic blocks might look good especially if they do the older wooden style and I guess holes could be drilled. Cylinders may be a bit more involved unless a commercial one is sourced, as for going the whole hog with valve gear 

[relaxinghobby]

I think I found the motor and it's mount from the 1970's Nellie.

 

 

Early can type motor ? Plastic cradle to fit it to the larger XO4 space.

 

As an answer to Hayfield's ideas. There is no need to remove the end blocks, there is a large space between the ends to get a motor mount in. A "slim line", two stage, Highlevel gear box would fit between the sides and lift the motor above the frames. Axel bushes have been used to adapt and fit the slimmer Markit wheels.

 

Plastic brake shoes could be attached to the side of the pickup insulation paxolin strip at the bottom of the chassis.

Edited November 16, 2016 by relaxinghobby

[rockershovel]

I'm amazed at the longevity of this thread, and the depth and variety, considering that it is basically about a long-out-of-production toy...

[Nearholmer]

Rosebud

[Edwardian]

Rosebud

 

....

[relaxinghobby]

Wow. This project has expanded to fill the space available, all this work for a none scale model.

A proper treatment of this project would be to slice the over long body like sliced bread and remove surplus slices and glue it back together again to make a scale model of the correct length?

 

Years ago there was a Railway Modeller article about doing just that.

 

See photo, I've had to contrive a new plastic mounting system to get the boddy down to the correct height and I'm now adding a cab interior from surplus parts and scrap. That’s an Airfix/Dapol backhead, a bit wide but who’s to know when it's hidden away inside a cab?

 

 

By the way I don't get the Rosebud reference. I know it was an old black and white film by Orson Wells and Rosebud where the first manufacturer of Airfix plastic kits, so what's the connection?

Edited November 20, 2016 by relaxinghobby

[Nearholmer]

Rockershovel said: "Depth and variety inspired by a long out of production toy.".

 

If you watch Citizen Kane, you will see how much depth is symbolised by a long out of production toy sledge labelled Rosebud.

 

There will probably be RMwebbers of a certain age who whisper, "Nellie." with their final breath, leaving everyone mystified about who this long-lost love might be. And, there are certainly large collections of highly sophisticated model railway kit, somewhere in the middle of which sit an unregarded Triang toy, which symbolises innocence lost in a welter of adult concerns, as the sledge sits among the vast accumulation of stuff in the final scene of the film.

 

Kevin

Edited November 20, 2016 by Nearholmer

[bertiedog]

Dependant on your point of view, Citizen Kane was the most brilliant/worse conceived, best acted/hammy, best film/boring two hours, history of Randolph Hearst/ or not....... film made by a genius/ or Orsen Wells.

 

The premiss of the film is for the viewer to find out what the dying newspaper magnates last word meant,....." Rosebud"...and it told in a series of flashbacks by his colleagues, friends and spouses, none of whom ever find out, but you the viewer does find out. Generally rated in the best top 5 films or so.......Heast in real life blew his top when he heard about the film, it was so near the truth in many ways.

 

It is very unkind to the character who in real life was actress, and his mistress, Marion Davies, who did not behave as shown in the film. Orsen Wells came in with the film as his first, and best, and then his career slowly went wrong! Started at the top and descended.

Generally a film worth seeing, it is well shot, acted and generally gripping, and a few intentioned laughs along the way,

 

Stephen

[Nearholmer]

Shorter plot summary: What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world, yet loses his own Nellie?

 

K

[Graham456]

I'm amazed at the longevity of this thread, and the depth and variety, considering that it is basically about a long-out-of-production toy...

If you'd had a Nellie when you were a child you might have understood why this thread has such life and depth. TOY ! How insulting... Nellie is something far greater than that, to some of us she is the the start of every thing ! Now where is that tongue in cheek smilie gone o well big grin one will do

Edited November 20, 2016 by Graham456

[rockershovel]

If you'd had a Nellie when you were a child you might have understood why this thread has such life and depth. TOY ! How insulting... Nellie is something far greater than that, to some of us she is the the start of every thing ! Now where is that tongue in cheek smilie gone o well big grin one will do

Well, I did have one, and it's possible that it may survive, along with a few other odd items from my late father's early-1960s layout. After all, I'm following this thread, aren't I?

[Compound2632]

At age 7, I asked for the Nellie goods set as my first train set (per the 1971 catalogue with Terence Cuneo's painting of Evening Star on the cover) but she was out of stock at the shop (bicycles and model railways?) on Wyle Cop in Shrewsbury so I had to settle for a set with 47606 - and I've never looked back...

[Coppercap]

At age 7, I asked for the Nellie goods set as my first train set (per the 1971 catalogue with Terence Cuneo's painting of Evening Star on the cover) but she was out of stock at the shop (bicycles and model railways?) on Wyle Cop in Shrewsbury so I had to settle for a set with 47606 - and I've never looked back...

7? You were a late starter!

[melmerby]

 

By the way I don't get the Rosebud reference. I know it was an old black and white film by Orson Wells and Rosebud where the first manufacturer of Airfix plastic kits, so what's the connection?

IIRC:

Rosebud Dolls were the manufacturer of Kitmaster plastic model railway kits. (Locos & Coaches)

Airfix also made plastic model railway kits. (Locos and wagons & several other bits)

Airfix bought some of the Kitmaster moulds from Rosebud. (the rest were lost)

Both ranges are now in the hands of Dapol.

 

Keith

[Nearholmer]

Did Rosebud, which I have feeling is an American company, name themselves after the sledge?

 

K

 

[edit: actually a British company, Rosebud Dolls was an offshoot of Nene Plastics, and started in 1947, went on from dolls to plastic kits, then absorbed into Mattel in the mid-1960s. Whether the founder, Eric Smith, was a Citizen Kane fan ....... who knows?!]

Edited November 21, 2016 by Nearholmer

[edcayton]

I don't remember Airfix doing any loco's apart trom the ex-Kitmaster ones. They did goods wagons and "lineside" items. Kitmaster did loco's, coaches and a motorised van so you could (if you were better at building kits than me) make the loco's move.

 

Ed

[hayfield]

I don't remember Airfix doing any loco's apart trom the ex-Kitmaster ones. They did goods wagons and "lineside" items. Kitmaster did loco's, coaches and a motorised van so you could (if you were better at building kits than me) make the loco's move.

 

Ed

 

Not to prolong the diversion of the thread too much, but it is interesting how some model ranges change hands over time. I never knew Wrenn was part of Hornby or Graham Farrish part of Bachmann till recently. 

 

I must find my P4 Nellie (not converted by me) and post a photo, right we are now back on track (excuse the pun)

[Coppercap]

I don't remember Airfix doing any loco's apart trom the ex-Kitmaster ones. They did goods wagons and "lineside" items. Kitmaster did loco's, coaches and a motorised van so you could (if you were better at building kits than me) make the loco's move.

 

Ed

I believe the only new Airfix locomotive was the Drewry diesel shunter, and also the Park Royal Railbus. Edited November 21, 2016 by Coppercap

[Edwardian]

My folks turned up some old photographs, which I got round to leafing through today.  The exercise turned up a shot of my Nellie on my childhood layout.

 

She still exists ....somewhere.

[Il Grifone]

I must find where my 'Nellie' has got to (actually a red 'Connie' I think). She was painted green many years ago - what I imagined was LSWR green at the time! Some time later she lost a wheel tyre and then had her motor pinched for something else, For ages she has been sat on a shelf rebuking me at intervals, but then got put away. Recently I acquired some 'new' wheels for her, so needless to say I haven't seen her since.....

 

 

Airfix did a whole range of scenic kits, a series of wagons, of which the most useful was the 1/108 mineral wagon, a railbus and the Drewry shunter. A few of the Kitmaster kits made it into their range later, but most have been lost. As previously stated, the survivors are now produced by Dapol.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Il Grifone

[Corbs]

Sorry Nellie/Polly fans....

Another, slightly different saddle tank conversion under way

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1365/entry-18548-nwr-no106-pollybashing/

[bertiedog]

The Rosebud name on Citizen Kane's sledge is a mystery as Rosebud Toys came about in the UK after the film. Mattel did not exist then. The sledge is portrayed in the 1941 film as being in Kane's childhood, back in the late 1890's , I seem to remember Orson Welles, the writer, director and star of the film said that he had such a sledge as a child with Rosebud on it, but then you could never believe anything Welles said, he was so mischievous at times. His childhood would have been the 1st world war period.

 

Stephen

[Nearholmer]

I have heard a very saucy explanation for the name of the sledge, but that originated with another mischief maker.

 

K

[bertiedog]

I have heard a very saucy explanation for the name of the sledge, but that originated with another mischief maker.

 

K

Usually to do with Marion Davis............