Management of rail fare expenses

[Phil Bullock]

Can I ask please

 

As a senior manager in the NHS it is incumbent on me to seek cost efficiency...

 

Having just signed off a colleagues expenses for a return trip from Bristol to Manchester at £171 are there ways to control and reduce these costs that other companies use?

 

Many thanks

 

Phil

 

[jamie92208]

That sounds to be very much the full 'walk on' fare. I would suggest that if the meeting is know about in advance then considerable savings could be achieved by making an advance purchase though condition vary from company to company. However the fares market is such a jungle that the perfect solution would be to have a designated admin person who did all such bookings.

 

With my slightly cynical ex police officers hat on I would also want to see the actual ticket and receipt.

 

Jamie

[meil]

That's the full ticket. However the Off peak does not kick in until 10am, I assume the journey needed to be taken before then.

 

I don't see why your employee should have to mess about trying to get the cheapest ticket when you can't be bothered to organise a ticket for them.

[Zomboid]

Advance tickets are the best bet. The lack of flexibility means that theo won't be popular, particularly for return journeys, but it's what we're expected to do. (Within reason, sometimes the AP is £1 less than the off peak).

The cost of someone's time should be considered too, it's a more hidden expense, but overall the cheapest train ticket may not be the best use of funds.

[roundhouse]

The problem with Advance tickets is if the meeting starts late /  runs on longer then the return ticket train time booked may be missed and a new full fare single ticket be required in any case. This would then involve the person booking the ticket allowing plenty of time after the meeting thus making the person be out all day thus wasting work time. No doubt they would be in trouble for wasting company time if they did such.

 

So a no win situation when it comes to meetings and travel expenses IMHO but yes definitely make sure you have a receipt.

 

Holding onto the actual ticket isnt always easy with ticket barriers these days.

[jonhall]

 

I don't see why your employee should have to mess about trying to get the cheapest ticket when you can't be bothered to organise a ticket for them.

 

I imagine that even in the NHS some employees, especially those allowed out on their own to Manchester, might also be quite capable of buying their own ticket?

 

Jon

[meil]

I imagine that even in the NHS some employees, especially those allowed out on their own to Manchester, might also be quite capable of buying their own ticket?

 

Jon

Yes quite capable - but then you can't criticise if they buy the ticket most convenient to them and not the NHS.

[The Stationmaster]

Yes quite capable - but then you can't criticise if they buy the ticket most convenient to them and not the NHS.

 

I would criticise them - very loudly.  They need to understand that they are spending our money, not theirs and an NHS guidelines on travel costs should reflect that.  And no way would I sign off a sum like that without the proof that it was in fact that fare that was paid. 

[Welly]

That's why the NHS prefers to pay car expenses or even lease pool cars for their employees, the costs are predictable!

[The Stationmaster]

That's why the NHS prefers to pay car expenses or even lease pool cars for their employees, the costs are predictable!

 

One well known fiddle in the past (might still go on for all I know) was for people to use their car but claim for the most expensive rail fare they could find.  It used to be very common for enquiry offices etc to get calls asking to know the fare between A & B but the inquirer never asked about train times or asked for information about cheaper fares.  Ee also used to get some calls from companies inquiring about fares - obviously checking expense claims but many of them were more than cute enough to ask what the cheapest fare would be for a particular journey.

 

Incidentally surely in order to be a legitimate claim 'above a trifling amount' for HMRC purposes it is necessary to have a receipt anyway?

[JohnR]

I'm surprised your organisation allows that. The NHS board I work for have (a few years ago now), created a Travel Bureau, who's job it is to source - at the cheapest and most advantageous rates - travel and accomodation. I have regular business trips to Glasgow, and sometimes I even get split train tickets, or advance singles although often just day returns. It all depends on what the travel experts can source within the timescales permitted.

[PaulRhB]

It always amazes me companies insist on sending people by train to short meetings during peak, why not simply find out how the majority are travelling and make a policy shared with partners of aiming to travel after the morning peak and before the evening? I guess someone will argue they only waste half the day but I bet they all go home not back to work

Our briefings were arranged to avoid peak to use cheaper tickets although it was a nightmare getting tickets out to various locations in time from the managers office. I guess it's seeing what the comparison is of lost work vs cost and whether an existing clerk can do it all or you employ an agency. We had a lady at the Woking office who arranged all long distance travel for courses etc and she was very efficient. Send an email, she'd confirm any details and the tickets were with you in two days. One clued up person can save the company a lot of money

[AndrewC]

Phil, to borrow from my employer's expenses guide. (paraphrased to cut out the excess verbiage)

 

Rail fares are to be booked in advance whenever possible through the Trainline or National Rail web sites.

Standard class only unless a promotion or sale is at the same or lower price.

Fares over £100 must be pre-approved by the project manager in the case of client billable expenses or by your line manager for internal costs.

Expenses incurred travelling in or through London must be made on a paper ticket or registered Oyster card. In the case of the latter a printed copy of the downloaded journey history will be acceptable as a receipt.

 

There are other bits about longer distance travel and cost mitigation around travelling the night before and booking hotel rooms. Basically they say, if the cost of travelling in the morning peak exceeds the cost of off peak + overnight accommodation, then choose the less expensive option.

[Jub45565]

I used to work away in Basingstoke a fair bit, and often chose the train.  From Bristol via Salisbury takes 10 minutes more than via Reading, but cost £30 return (without specific train restrictions, other than route) rather than nearly £200 for the 'standard' ticket between the two.  I always went for the £30 option, as being at work I look at my value add for the day.  If you want to keep yourself in a job, your value add should always be more than you're costing...

 

I knew someone (working in procurement...) who whenever sent there got the £200 ticket and a taxi to 'save' a 10 minute walk and got it all signed off...

 

It shouldnt be down to rules, but culture. 

[The Stationmaster]

Phil, to borrow from my employer's expenses guide. (paraphrased to cut out the excess verbiage)

 

Rail fares are to be booked in advance whenever possible through the Trainline or National Rail web sites.

Standard class only unless a promotion or sale is at the same or lower price.

Fares over £100 must be pre-approved by the project manager in the case of client billable expenses or by your line manager for internal costs.

Expenses incurred travelling in or through London must be made on a paper ticket or registered Oyster card. In the case of the latter a printed copy of the downloaded journey history will be acceptable as a receipt.

 

There are other bits about longer distance travel and cost mitigation around travelling the night before and booking hotel rooms. Basically they say, if the cost of travelling in the morning peak exceeds the cost of off peak + overnight accommodation, then choose the less expensive option.

 

And they're happy to pay Trainline prices?  I don't normally have to pay for most UK rail journeys but if I did I wouldn't touch that lot with a bargepole.  (However one thing in favour of that organisation - if it still applies - is that they used to be prepared to refund what would normally be non-refundable tickets if the reason for non use was good enough.)

[colin penfold]

Phil, I would agree that an admin role or travel unit approach is best, depending on the volumes involved. There is however still a responsibility on the individual. For example I would always tell the colleagues who do the bookings for my organisation the times of my journeys. I appreciate that you cant always be sure how long a meeting or event will take, but you can be pretty sure what time you will be setting off. A fixed time single for the outward, and a flexible single coming back is often cheaper than a return. It's about having someone who has the time and understanding to make the right bookings combined with the people for whom bookings are made giving as much info as possible. As Mike said, people should remember its not their money they are spending.

[AndrewC]

And they're happy to pay Trainline prices?  I don't normally have to pay for most UK rail journeys but if I did I wouldn't touch that lot with a bargepole.  (However one thing in favour of that organisation - if it still applies - is that they used to be prepared to refund what would normally be non-refundable tickets if the reason for non use was good enough.)

no idea why they specified them. Maybe it was due to potential refund or there is a permanent voucher code we have to use. I always use the National Rail site. Having said that, last year I was getting a walk up first class on First GW that was cheaper than the peak return offered online. Sadly the promotion only lasted a month.

[roundhouse]

Something that we have to be careful with is that us rmwebbers have an interest in trains and many a good knowledge of where trains to from and to plus at least a rough idea of fare structures.

 

Those who don't have an interest in the railways often don't even know which mainline London station to go to let alone route,s fare structures or even anything about the National Rail website etc. so we have to be careful that we are not presuming others have the same knowledge as many of us.

[colin penfold]

Agree with Roundhouse which is why giving someone the responsibility is a good idea. If you only do small volumes there's no need to employ someone specially. Any competent admin person should be able to understand and operate an online booking system on behalf of the department. You dont want managers costing £30 an hour upwards spending arguably 30 minutes on a booking and saving a tenner on the cost (random example as a warning against false economies)

[Phil Bullock]

Thank you all for the contributions - I have to say I agree with virtually all of the sentiments expressed.

 

To clarify a couple of points - No expense gets signed off without a receipt except car travel. And the mileage for that is worked out by a web browser based app when a claim is submitted. So little scope for fiddling unless telling downright lies.

 

The NHS is still mainly London centric too - which does not help - and specialist courses at which attendance is mandatory to maintain competence are only provided at a very few locations around the country - hence the need for travel.

 

So back to the quoted example - £171 is the walk up second class fare for peak hour travel from Bristol to Manchester and return.

 

I managed to get it down to £104 by booking separate legs...

 

Bristol - Cheltenham

Cheltenham - BNS

BNS - Stafford

Stafford - Manchester

 

The caveat has to be that the train stops at all those locations. And by doing that a seat reservation will be at best discontinuous or at worst non existant. It took me no more than 10 mins to work that out - but once an admin person has arranged the journey once it s there for future reference.

 

Furthermore - and not clear whether my organisation would pay for it but why not you might ask....with an over 60s railcard costing £30 the price would be down to £73 - thereby covering its cost and making it available gratis for any future journeys.

 

The point made about total cost including time is also key especially as staff availability at the moment is a difficult subject.

 

So...I have a meeting with our auditors tomorrow to convince them advance purchase of tickets by the organisation is an option worth pursuing...along with taking steps to eliminate travel whenever possible, such as ensuring video conferencing is robust.

 

Phil

[brigo]

£171.80 is a typical Cross Coumtry Trains rip off fare. Your chappie should have used Arriva Trains Wales via Hereford, same anytime ticket £81.80 Journey takes a similar time around 4 hours.

 

It's probably been mentioned on this site before but this is a very useful site to research fares

 

http://www.brfares.com/#home

 

Brian

[Andrew1974]

This all comes down to ones perspective. A few times a year I travel from Wigan to London at the company's expense.

 

I normally get a fixed ticket going south, and a flexible ticket coming back north...and both normally first class.

 

This way I save a few quid with the one leg advance but still get to do 4 hours work on the train which other wise would be dead time. This suits my requirements, but others may have different priorities. Each to their own..

[jjb1970]

This is a cultural thing I think as people shouldn't need managing to use the best value fares. I'm guessing that most people are capable of sourcing fares for their own private travel and wouldn't just take the highest fare without considering alternatives. Advance purchase fares can save a packet, my experience is that even with the risk of a meeting over running it is still cheaper to accept the occasional walk on fare for the return journey as most journeys do work out fine using fixed tickets. One psychological trick a former employer used is to tell people that if they can find a cheap first class fare you'll be agreeable to approving, it is amazing what great first class deals people can find if they know their management will sign off on the upgrade, generally cheaper than flexible second class fares in my experience. We use a corporate travel provider and we're expected to take the cheapest ticket for the journey that the travel agent can offer unless there is a good enough reason not to, it is a self policing system as I've never been challenged or been asked to have another look but then everybody in the office is pretty good at keeping their travel costs down. And if you do have a regular journey then it can indeed be cheaper to just buy tickets and assume somebody will use them. I used to have to travel to Nottingham from London every two weeks and to Coventry every week, I just got my office to book cheapo first class advance tickets for weeks and weeks worth of travel, the tickets cost peanuts and even though I missed a few journeys and nobody else wanted to use the tickets it was still much cheaper than me buying tickets every week.

[Edwin_m]

We are required to use a website called Evolvi, which offers a wide range of tickets within the parameters given to it.  I don't think it's available to the general public but comes via our corporate travel people, who also arrange billing of tickets direct to the project so avoiding the need to claim expenses.  There is a fee per ticket, as there is with many corporate booking sites, but this is claimed to be offset by the reduction in admin processing claims etc. 

 

It doesn't however do splits, and with rudimentary knowledge of what works on my most usual journeys I've often been able to cut quite a bit off what it claims to be the lowest fare.  As to inflexibility of Advances, it helps to have a culture of not changing meeting times once set and sticking to the advertised finishing time (I'm not necessarily saying we have this!).  Having an influence over the meeting time also helps - two or three hours starting around lunchtime should avoid the worst of the peak on most journeys.  It's also helpful if there is a company office in the city being visited, so you can book a train later than the worst case meeting finish time and use any spare time in between productively.  This is however far less of a problem with trains than with internal flights, where there are probably only two or three every day and once booked they are virtually impossible to change. 

[adb968008]

Bristol to Manchester is 168 miles each way (336 Miles @ HMRCs 45p per mile rate = £151).. total flexibility on travel times by car.

Flexible Railfare is expensive, and is purposely aimed at business travel and is purposely close to the HMRC mileage rate.

 

Advance tickets should be encouraged, but if theres a risk of cancelation then it's a risk between loss of ticket versus a flexible one.

The other option would be to consider traveling the evening before and staying in a hotel, could be cheaper than peak time travel.

 

Presumably there may be an additional taxi claims either stations too, so it's probably >£176 when it's all said and done.

 

I would be careful on screwing down employee flexibility too much, if you have an employee who travels a large % of the time, and they are forced to make several connections and travel at consistently unsociable / personal time & hours, with little or no thought to their personal needs.. it wont be long before they are an ex-employee and the employer develops a bad reputation.

 

Beware veiled savings with travel agents (one well known TA will book tickets that are invariably higher than publicly available airfares on  sites like expedia etc), but when they issue the ticket they compare the ticket sold against the full fare fully refundable last minute ticket price, then show it as a saving, when in reality no one ever would buy that fare they compared against and they get away with selling a higher priced ticket that offers no benefit over a cheaper one.

 

Ive some real horror stories with travel agents booking tickets (In my case airfares), one guy working for me was forced by the TA to take a ticket leaving his home on a friday evening, connecting in Amsterdam overnight, no hotel, Nairobi (between approx 4am-12pm sunday)  then onwards to Johannesburg on the Sunday evening, to start work on a Monday, and on his return was routed through Banjul & Madrid with some very unsavoury airlines... all to save £200 and put him in economy... not surprisingly he refused to travel again and a 7 figure deal was lost, he had my full support.

 

The same company (and I suspect same assistant) sent an empty 2'x2'x2'ft empty card board box to our office 24 hour before 9am expedited courier service from Ireland to London, containing only parcel tape, so another employee could return his spare old laptop (that was to be decommissioned).. the paid for courier collection and  overnight before 9am return.. cost almost as much as the said ticket.