Croydon Tram Accident

[Edwin_m]

I knew two of the people involved in the commissioning stages and early driver training at Croydon; they had been involved in similar work at Eurotunnel, and prior to that, had worked at BR.

I was involved in the same commissioning and several of the key managers who went on to run the tramway had come from Metrolink - the only operational modern tramway in the UK at the time. 

[Dagworth]

A different driver reportedly struggling to stay awake at the controls in video footage passed to a national "news"paper has been removed from duty pending an investigation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38040186

Edited November 19, 2016 by Dagworth

[Colin_McLeod]

These lights have always been provided at Croydon and on other tram systems.  They light up if the system detects a signal passed at danger, and any driver seeing the lights should stop immediately (so as to stop both the SPAD tram and any other that might be in conflict with it).  If they are now operating for all trams then I would think that creates a serious risk of confusion.

 

Genuine question. How does this create a serious risk of confusion?

[Dagworth]

Genuine question. How does this create a serious risk of confusion?

Because if those lights mean ALL STOP in most locations then what do they mean here?

[Gwiwer]

Over-speed drivers have sometimes been celebrated and some yet remain as heroes of their day.  Bill Hoole, for example, renowned for beating the East Coast timetables when ever the need arose and of course back then without the benefit of a speedometer in the cab at least some of the time.

 

We have read of the more recent Club140 for HST drivers over the same route.

 

As we become ever more safety conscious so such things as a single mile per hour (or kilometre per hour) over speed get recorded and we may face some questions.  How times change.  

 

On the subject of rest when I worked on the railway in London our shift pattern was "straight 8" 06.30 - 14.30 / 14.30 - 22.30 / 22.30 - 0630 which allowed no handover time.  You were expected to present yourself 5 minutes early having already signed on, read notices and smartened yourself up in your own time.  Likewise you signed off in your own time.  If the relieving shift didn't turn in you were placed under pressure to work a double - your choice always but most took the money rather than sleep.  Rosters varied but typically you worked five earlies, two off, five lates, two off; nights were assigned to specific staff but if the late duty wasn't relieved you were expected to double through and go home next morning at 06.30.  Then back at 14.30 the same day.  These were non-driving positions but still very much on a "live" railway with big moving trains and a lot of people.  The potential for a fatigue-related accident was very high. 

 

Slightly earlier whilst at university I made regular use of the no.15 bus between East Ham and the City of London.  These were based at Upton Park shed though many of the crews lived out at Southend and some beyond, rising as early as 2am for a 4am start and that because of the cost of London housing.  The point about travel-to-work time being factored into the day made above was very relevant.  A delayed evening peak home run (which was a daily occurrence on the East India Dock Road) could result in the crew missing their minimum rest periods and being RTA'd for duty next morning ("RTA'd" = in breach of permitted hours under the Road Traffic Act).  In consequence many a trip was turned in short at Upon Park and few of those scheduled ever reached East Ham.

 

Driving coaches and buses around the western end of Cornwall proved things hadn't changed much.  Shifts were relatively kind by industry standards because much of the area was rural and there was no significant demand for buses before 6.30am or after 8pm.  Our single late shift booked off in Camborne at 00.17 having visited Lands End, Helston, St. Just and St. Ives.  But the law allowed you to work - on Domestic Hours - up to a 16-hour day with no more than 10 hours at the wheel and statutory rest periods through that day.  Atypical shift was 11 hours with an absolute maximum physically driving and a bare minimum 30 minute break which could be assigned anywhere that "Rest and refreshment is available" to comply with the law.  In other words sometimes in the car park at Lands End or on the bus station at St. Ives.  If you know those locations you can guess how much "rest" we actually got while parked up there in summer.  Breaks were taken on the vehicle because if you walked to the nearest cafe that took up 10 minutes and you would always be stopped and questioned.  We worked to the limit of the law in terms of covering rest days and sickness.  That means up to 19 days consecutively on duty.  If a distant depot were short and you were booked off the phone would ring.  It was up to you to explain that you were RTA'd and unable to work.  If you broke the law it was on your own head.

 

I suspect that while driving hours legislation may be more proscriptive that in order to minimise costs much the same culture pervades the industry today.  If the law is inadequate safeguard changes may be recommended and enacted.  If the law has been broken then redress and punishment is through the legal system.  If the unfortunate driver has had a microsleep - and I know hey happen because colleagues have reported them - then we may need some electronic or physical means to detect this and / or to slow a tram no longer under active control.  The Waterfall train crash south of Sydney a number of years ago, in which a driver lost consciousness and slumped over the DSD keeping it depressed, proved there was a need for changes.  It also showed that there was a culture of drivers hanging their bag on the controls which also had to stop.  

 

In response to incidents, tragic though they might be, changes can be made.  It is difficult to effectively make changes pro-actively unless we already know what problem the change is intended to address.  There may not have been any problem that Tramlink was aware of until now.

[Colin_McLeod]

Because if those lights mean ALL STOP in most locations then what do they mean here?

I still don't understand

You asked a question "what do they mean here?" I would imagine that their meaning is explained to the tram drivers in a written instruction issued in connection with this new arrangement.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Colin_McLeod

[Dagworth]

I still don't understand

You asked a question "what do they mean here?" I would imagine that their meaning is explained to the tram drivers in a written instruction issued in connection with this new arrangement.

ok, more simply, a red traffic light light always means STOP. Imagine the scenario where at one specific junction that red traffic light meant Slow Down. The same signal has to have the same meaning EVERY TIME or confusion can slip in.

 

Andi

[The Stationmaster]

In the UK the minimum rest period between shifts is 12 hours and 36 hours clear for a rest-day. There are some very tight and regulated limits on total hours and total days without a break under Hidden that came about because of the Clapham crash.

 

The other problem from my own experience as a driver was management who didn't know what shift work entailed. Our depot worked a two shift system, late one week and early the next. I hated earlies and had a regular swap with a guy who didn't like lates. For two years I didn't do any earlies which was great (and much safer) as my body-clock was not in that perpetual shift lag state. Then management decided that we weren't allowed to do that anymore for no apparent reason except management didn't want it.

 

Andi

 

Many UK conditions for footplate staff have of course changed since privatisation but I'm fairly sure the very long established 12 hours minimum rest interval hasn't although the 36 hours clear for a Rest Day came later.  The only exception I know from the 12 hours minimum is for Eurostar Drivers on lodging turns where the minimum permitted interval is shorter (which roughly accords with SNCF conditions in respect of lodging turns).  I do remember being taught many years ago the occasions on which, on BR, you could bring a Driver back on duty after 8 hours rest but they were rare and I'm fairly sure all three reasons had been done away with by the mid 1970s.  Of course the main constraint for many years on BR was the maximum time allowed for 'continuous driving' where we were very different from the situation in some European mainland countries, e.g France were the limit is c.9 hours without a break.

 

Incidentally I can see nothing at all wrong with footplate staff (and others come to that) doing regular swops for a particular time of day provided that in the case of Drivers there is sufficient work there to maintain route and traction/handling knowledge.  At one depot where I was we had a couple of Drivers Assts (as they were at that time) who regularly swopped for (very) early turns and in the days when I got more heavily involved in shifts I always had a liking for late turns or nights - especially 12 hour nights

[Dagworth]

Incidentally I can see nothing at all wrong with footplate staff (and others come to that) doing regular swops for a particular time of day provided that in the case of Drivers there is sufficient work there to maintain route and traction/handling knowledge.  At one depot where I was we had a couple of Drivers Assts (as they were at that time) who regularly swopped for (very) early turns and in the days when I got more heavily involved in shifts I always had a liking for late turns or nights - especially 12 hour nights

As a secondman at Ipswich I much preferred nights, get out on either engineers trains or overnight freightliner work, much more fun and something to do. On some of my night shifts with the right driver he would throw me the key at signing on and he didn't touch the controls all night. In those days you learnt to drive properly

 

Andi

[royaloak]

note, Dutch trains do not wait several minutes between closing the doors and the actual time for departure as is customary in the UK!

Which UK trains wait several minutes from closing the doors to actually departing please?

I am aware that Virgin trains at Euston start to close doors 2 minutes before departure but that is the only one I know of which is over 1 minute!

[stewartingram]

There was, at one time, quite a sizeable contingent of railway and LUL staff commuting from Peterborough to Hornsey, Kings X and various LUL locations.

Still is, and further afield in Lincolnshire too.

 

Stewart

[stewartingram]

A dangerous road might be a single track, steep, numerous hairpins and about one foot of verge before a drop off a cliff on one side and a rock wall on the other (as I described). As found in many mountainous regions. Or a road deep in the Canadian Rockies in the depths of winter or a remote track in the Sahara, where getting stuck or having a breakdown could be fatal and is rather more likely than the M25 on a weekend. All of which I have driven and are dangerous by any accepted definition of the word.

But the road itself is not dangerous - it won't jump up and attack you! Hazardous yes. You drive to suit the conditions.

 

Stewart

[Rivercider]

 

Incidentally I can see nothing at all wrong with footplate staff (and others come to that) doing regular swops for a particular time of day provided that in the case of Drivers there is sufficient work there to maintain route and traction/handling knowledge.  At one depot where I was we had a couple of Drivers Assts (as they were at that time) who regularly swopped for (very) early turns and in the days when I got more heavily involved in shifts I always had a liking for late turns or nights - especially 12 hour nights

One of the SPADs that occurred at the depot I worked at involved a driver who regularly swapped for evening turns,

he ended up regularly working a particular service that followed a stopping train so was frequently driving against yellow signals,

until one day one of them was a red,

 

cheers

[Arun Sharma]

RiverCider wrote, "One of the SPADs that occurred at the depot I worked at involved a driver who regularly swapped for evening turns,

he ended up regularly working a particular service that followed a stopping train so was frequently driving against yellow signals,

until one day one of them was a red",

 

Interesting - What the Marine and Aviation accident investigation psychologists refer to as a "Motor Program Error" - A type of mistake that [almost] only ever occurs in trained and experienced practitioners. Two elements to it - the first is [unreasonable] expectation/anticipation and the second [less obvious] is a built in lack of flexibility that doesn't welcome change in circumstances so a slower response time.

[The Stationmaster]

 

RiverCider wrote, "One of the SPADs that occurred at the depot I worked at involved a driver who regularly swapped for evening turns,

he ended up regularly working a particular service that followed a stopping train so was frequently driving against yellow signals,

until one day one of them was a red",

 

Interesting - What the Marine and Aviation accident investigation psychologists refer to as a "Motor Program Error" - A type of mistake that [almost] only ever occurs in trained and experienced practitioners. Two elements to it - the first is [unreasonable] expectation/anticipation and the second [less obvious] is a built in lack of flexibility that doesn't welcome change in circumstances so a slower response time.

 

 

In railway circumstances it's mainly down to anticipation and what many refer to as 'we never get checked here' syndrome (which uI suspect might well have had something to do with the Harrow collision.  The big problem on the British railway network is that because of inadequate infrastructure a situation has grown up where on some routes trains are running at or near linespeed on double yellows and it requires intense concentration and good reactions to get the brake in quickly when what was expected to be a double yellow turns out to be a single yellow.  Defensive driving should of course make a major difference as braking would inevitably then commence for the double yellow but the side effect is that delays then build-up due to the original cause - inadequate infrastructure.

 

Sorry - but way OT for the Croydon derailment although there might be a similar psychology involved - time will tell.

[Edwin_m]

ok, more simply, a red traffic light light always means STOP. Imagine the scenario where at one specific junction that red traffic light meant Slow Down. The same signal has to have the same meaning EVERY TIME or confusion can slip in.

 

Andi

The curve where the derailment happened is just before a junction.  If a tram goes through one of the protecting signals when it is showing a stop aspect, the flashing lights light up to warn every tram in the vicinity to stop.  If the lights are lit all the time then this warning will no longer be given.  Therefore I hope the lights alerting to the curve are a different colour (maybe yellow, as I think the other lights are blue). 

[TheSignalEngineer]

The familiarity factor can have a large bearing on SPAD and similar incidents. When i did a road commute I regularly drove the same roads at the same time every day. By Friday I would get to the state where I had no idea  where on the M1 I actually was. To overcome this I worked out four routes of similar length and drove at least one variation during each week, sometimes depending on roadworks, incidents etc. I found that by doing this I was also more awake when I got to work than using the same routine every day.

 

I remember that before sectorisation most New Street drivers used to work cyclic rosters which took them on different routes and traction. Over a period of about two months they would cover most of the relief points and loco types on services passing through. It must have been much better than driving the same type of train on a captive service for a TOC or tram operator.

[The Stationmaster]

The familiarity factor can have a large bearing on SPAD and similar incidents. When i did a road commute I regularly drove the same roads at the same time every day. By Friday I would get to the state where I had no idea  where on the M1 I actually was. To overcome this I worked out four routes of similar length and drove at least one variation during each week, sometimes depending on roadworks, incidents etc. I found that by doing this I was also more awake when I got to work than using the same routine every day.

 

I remember that before sectorisation most New Street drivers used to work cyclic rosters which took them on different routes and traction. Over a period of about two months they would cover most of the relief points and loco types on services passing through. It must have been much better than driving the same type of train on a captive service for a TOC or tram operator.

 

Interestingly I understand from a GWR Driver that the turns on our branch have been split up so that they don't work more than a fairly limited number of trips before being relieved and going on to something else - very different from the days when the daytime work was covered by two turns.  This suggests to me that someone in the industry has looked at the repetition/boredom factor and has decided that in some circumstances it is more critical than doing the job the simplest and most reliable way (it should be noted that our branch is only 5 miles long which is undoubtedly a factor in such a decision).

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Interesting - What the Marine and Aviation accident investigation psychologists refer to as a "Motor Program Error" - A type of mistake that [almost] only ever occurs in trained and experienced practitioners. Two elements to it - the first is [unreasonable] expectation/anticipation and the second [less obvious] is a built in lack of flexibility that doesn't welcome change in circumstances so a slower response time.

 

 

 

Probably the worst example of this was the London tube train that didn't slow down or stop going into a dead end tunnel at a terminus. No reason known with an experienced driver who wasn't apparently dead or asleep as he passed the fixed red.

 

[Fat Controller]

Probably the worst example of this was the London tube train that didn't slow down or stop going into a dead end tunnel at a terminus. No reason known with an experienced driver who wasn't apparently dead or asleep as he passed the fixed red.

Moorgate

[pete_mcfarlane]

Moorgate

Grantham in 1906 is the other well known example of a train crew inexplicably not stopping.

[caradoc]

(note, Dutch trains do not wait several minutes between closing the doors and the actual time for departure as is customary in the UK!)

 

Your statement is incorrect. In travelling many thousands of miles on trains in the UK since 1972 I have never known this practice to occur: Not once, ever. If it did, the timetabled departure time becomes meaningless.

[royaloak]

Got it from the 2013 BBC series "keeping Britain on track". Dunno which episode, here's the first to get you started:

 

 

(watch on YT, they'll give you the other episodes as "recommended video")

So you want me to watch several hours worth of television to 'prove' your point, I dont think so, you made the statement so back it up please!

 

Signed a Mainline Train Driver.

[RJS1977]

Your statement is incorrect. In travelling many thousands of miles on trains in the UK since 1972 I have never known this practice to occur: Not once, ever. If it did, the timetabled departure time becomes meaningless.

 

I know SWT normally start to close the doors 30 seconds before departure, but that is hardly "several minutes".

[Fat Controller]

Your statement is incorrect. In travelling many thousands of miles on trains in the UK since 1972 I have never known this practice to occur: Not once, ever. If it did, the timetabled departure time becomes meaningless.

About the only time I can think where I've seen this practice is some of the London termini (Euston springs to mind, but there may be others), where notices advise that doors may be closed up to two minutes before the advertised departure time. The Departure Time is exactly that; the time at which the train should start to move; NOT the time at passengers should arrive at the train. Outside of these London stations, dwell times are too short for trains to stand 'for several minutes' with doors shut