letterspider Posted May 7 Share Posted May 7 Design centred around customer experience as opposed to profit. Removable roof for decoder fitting. Built in speakers Working pantographs.....well do you mean working as the plastic actually doesn't fall apart when you touch it (like on the APT?) I had to replace mine with Bachmann Class 85 pantographs Clever design makes customers smile and willing to suffer a bit more pain in their wallets. Also good quality models, you have the confidence of a good resale value when you let them go. This benefits Hornby as you come back for more good models with money from your resale. However I am sure Hornby know their niche and design and market accordingly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted May 7 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 7 On 11/03/2024 at 15:27, Marcyg said: So, I took the plunge and bought one of the discounted 87s, originally a preorder, but when Hornby upped their prices, I cancelled it. Glad I waited! What decoders are people using in the 21 pin models? Looked back through this thread but couldn't find a definitive answer. Does the chassis need trimming? Thanks During the weekend, I tried to fit a Rails/DCC Concepts 21pin decoder to my 87009 but it is too wide for the space! So I had to fit a Hattons 21pin decoder instead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XChris Posted May 7 Share Posted May 7 For me, I would look mainly at the electrics on the model. 21 pin decoder fitting then as mentioned head/tail lights switchable, an operating pantograph in line with Bachmann 90’s or Accurascale 89/92’s and Dapol’s 88’s would bring the model up. As for pre fitted speakers, this is nice saves installing my own but only good if the speaker fitted is of a good quality (like Cavalex or Accurascale models), otherwise you then have to remove what’s been put in (Bachmann models). I do believe that DCC functionality is the main thing that lets Hornby down, models usually look like the real thing but can’t be operated like the real thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 On 06/05/2024 at 23:52, Pete the Elaner said: Metal pan which maintains contact with the contact wire would be No1. More lighting options. I can understand corridor lighting options, but that is not something I would make use of. What I would find useful is the ability to turn off front or rear lights for when working with a train. DCC control of the marker light would also be desirable. On 07/05/2024 at 09:58, letterspider said: Design centred around customer experience as opposed to profit. Removable roof for decoder fitting. Built in speakers Working pantographs.....well do you mean working as the plastic actually doesn't fall apart when you touch it (like on the APT?) I had to replace mine with Bachmann Class 85 pantographs Clever design makes customers smile and willing to suffer a bit more pain in their wallets. Also good quality models, you have the confidence of a good resale value when you let them go. This benefits Hornby as you come back for more good models with money from your resale. However I am sure Hornby know their niche and design and market accordingly. Given that Hornby hasn't made a profit in years these design shortcomings aren't very good if that's what motivated them (which I don't believe to be the case). It's really down to organisational failings which hopefully the new regime will address. The VEP shows what can be done to redesign a model that missed the mark originally. The current SWT and Southern versions have really transformed it and it now compares well on price and spec with the Bachmann EMUs (a complete turnaround from its first release). If Hornby commit to the necessary chassis redesign to allow plug-and-play DCC fitment with speaker provision, a lighting circuit that allows for front/rear/cab light control, and an improved pantograph, and marries this with popular liveries well applied, this model is a winner. It's so close otherwise... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
letterspider Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 Is anyone else thinking the same thing...Bachmann could take a look at tooling up an 87 body shell to put on their Class 90 chassis but would there be a profit in it? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 8 minutes ago, letterspider said: Is anyone else thinking the same thing...Bachmann could take a look at tooling up an 87 body shell to put on their Class 90 chassis but would there be a profit in it? I don't think anyone is thinking this. What would be the point for Bachmann, they'd be better of doing an 81 next if they were going to do another electric. It would be similar to asking Heljan to do one and then an 86/1 as well using the chassis. The boat for an 87 has sailed for a decade. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 (edited) On 07/05/2024 at 09:58, letterspider said: However I am sure Hornby know their niche and design and market accordingly. An amusing sarcastic comment sir! Their 56 has been bettered by Cavalex & their 60 is about to suffer the same fate. Their 90 & 31 have been bettered by Bachmann, while their 50 & 31 are about to be bettered by Accurascale. They even gave Heljan the opportunity to have 2 cracks at the 86. As far as D&E are concerned, Hornby have lost their way with premium models. Competitors seem to be leaving the budget market to them though. Edited May 8 by Pete the Elaner Grammar 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 On 07/05/2024 at 00:20, ColinB said: Easier fitment of DCC decoder, currently you have to remove the main PCB to fit a decoder. Separate lighting for headlights and cab. You are right. I forgot that. My 3 are all the earlier 8 pin models, which were poorly designed: not enough space for their own decoder to fit (& Hornby consider themselves as a manufacturer who does not usually consider customers fitting a 3rd party decoder). Speaker location was suitable only for a 2d speaker, which does not exist. I read that the 21 pin version introduced more problems that it solved too. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonC Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 50 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said: An amusing sarcastic comment sir! Their 56 has been bettered by Cavalex & their 60 is about to suffer the same fate. Their 90 & 31 have been bettered by Bachmann, while their 50 & 31 are about to be bettered by Accurascale. They even gave Heljan the opportunity to have 2 cracks at the 86. As far as D&E are concerned, Hornby have lost their way with premium models. Competitors seem to be leaving the budget market to them though. competitors dont have old tooling to hand so all seem to be going for more and more detail for the premium models Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 (edited) 4 hours ago, GordonC said: competitors dont have old tooling to hand so all seem to be going for more and more detail for the premium models Yes but a lot of the things they could improve probably don't effect tooling that much. The lighting option and dcc decoder fitting is just a new pcb and having worked in the electronics industry that is not particularly expensive. They redesigned it for the 21 pin decoder option so why didn't they sort out the lighting and sort out the decoder position properly. The even bigger issue is the cost of these models, they are far more expensive than their competitors with less features. Replacing the plastic pantograph with a metal one is also not a major tooling change. Edited May 8 by ColinB 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
letterspider Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 (edited) 8 hours ago, woodenhead said: 8 hours ago, woodenhead said: I don't think anyone is thinking this. What would be the point for Bachmann, they'd be better of doing an 81 next if they were going to do another electric. It would be similar to asking Heljan to do one and then an 86/1 as well using the chassis. The boat for an 87 has sailed for a decade. They could do both of course. But as you surely know the 87 has a wider range of liveries than an 81 and that's what makes a tooling profitable. The fact we haven't seen an 81 so far perhaps confirms it Mind you I wouldn't say no to a couple of 81s Edited May 8 by letterspider 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
letterspider Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 (edited) I have a Class 90 Bachmann I am breaking up. If anyone has (new tooling) Class 87 body shell to sell, I'm tempted to see if the two can be married. Please pm me Has anyone tried this yet? Edited May 9 by letterspider Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted May 9 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 9 (edited) 22 hours ago, letterspider said: Is anyone else thinking the same thing...Bachmann could take a look at tooling up an 87 body shell to put on their Class 90 chassis but would there be a profit in it? Put part of the 90 roof on it and do 87101 too. I dont see Bachmann doing an 87, or Hornby doing a 90 anytime soon. Bachmann has had a decade to put an 81 body on the 85 chassis. if theres another AC electric its probably an 82 or an 84. Edited May 9 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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