Midland Railway 10 ton single platform brakevan

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

I suspect the H&A stock is old stock. I'd be delighted to be wrong.

 

 

Be delighted, Miss Prism.

[Steamport Southport]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

There's a "Menu" tab to click on. Under 4 mm wagons, only the NER hopper and brake van are listed but it does seem to be the case that all the kits using the 9 ft wheelbase underframe, the cattle wagon, and 10 ton brake van are available, but not yet the 10 ft wheelbase vans. Eileen's Emporium list them as well as H&A, possibly others? 

 

The 5 plank and 3 plank wagons (D299 and D305/Drg1143) have been available for some years through POWSides, along with the PO wagon kits.

 

Not working for me. It just goes to a screen that says Cookies with a disclaimer.

 

I haven't got any blockers or anything that would hinder access installed.

 

Quote

 

Cookies

This site uses non-intrusive cookies to enable us to provide a better user experience for our visitors. No personal information is collected or stored from these cookies. The company's policy is fully explained here

 

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

Don't know. I was using Chrome. 

[Steamport Southport]

I've got it to vaguely work if I avoid the home page and go straight to products via Google. 

 

https://slatersplastikard.com/wagons/4mmWagons.php

 

 

Jason

[Welchester]

14 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Weird, there's no mention of it on Slater's site. Has anyone bought one from H&A? 

 

14 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I suspect the H&A stock is old stock. I'd be delighted to be wrong.

 

 

It's new stock; Slaters seem to be rather dilatory at updating their online catalogue. H&A are a reputable trader, seen at many exhibitions (no connection except as a satisfied customer).

[wainwright1]

They are all new stock. I have obtained some from my local supplier Kent Garden Railways.

The 3 plank, 5 plank, coke wagon, small van and cattle wagon have also been re-released.

 

The larger vans are I think on hold as I believe that the moulds for the roofs have been lost.

 

RB

[Nile]

Eileen's have them.

[Barclay]

With apologies for bringing this one back to life - does anyone know if any of these 10T vans survived to Nationalisation?

 

Many thanks

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Barclay said:

With apologies for bringing this one back to life - does anyone know if any of these 10T vans survived to Nationalisation?

 

The last ones were built to a lot started in April 1902. From 1901 the number of Midland goods brake vans was static at 1,663 until 1912, then 1,664 until the end of 1912 when, with the acquisition of 46 from the LT&S it rose to 1,712 (so renewals must have been slightly outstripping breakings-up) but in the years after the Great War the numbers declined until the total at the end of 1922 was down to 1,383. [These statistics come from the Returns of Working Stock included in the company's half-early Reports and Accounts (annual from 1913).]

 

From 1903 onwards, up to 1915/16, 414 6-wheeled 20-ton and 15-ton brakes, D393 / D394 were built, and 50 4-wheel double-verandah 20 ton brakes in 1919; it is probable some of the 50 ordered in July 1922 were also in service by the end of that year. Discounting those, there were no more than 919 brakes built before 1903 in service at the end of 1922. Of these, up to 116 were 6-wheel 20-ton brakes built 1886-91. 

 

So, roughly speaking, about 800 of the 1,578 10-ton brakes were still in stock at the end of 1922. If one assumes that it was the most recently built ones that survived, that would mean that none built before 1890 were still in stock, indicating that the expected service lifetime was no more the 32 years. 

 

In Midland Wagons, Bob Essery reproduced what he said was the only photograph he had found of a 10-ton brake in (first) LMS livery where the number could be read. Given that he reproduces photos of the 6 and 4-wheel 20-ton brakes in BR livery, I think that's a clear indication he had no evidence for any later livery than first LMS. I think the photo in question is probably mid-to-late 20s, it's on the Lickey Incline banked by 0-6-0Ts 1934 and 7107 - the latter being from the very first batch of the LMS standard 3F 0-6-0Ts - both in first LMS livery; the van itself still has tablet racks (unused) and an M prefix to its number. 

 

Given that 10-ton brakes were definitely outmoded by the 1920s; that a lifetime in service of about 30 years or so seems to have been the case at least in Midland days; and that the LMS built around 2,000 20-ton goods brakes in the 1920s, of which, pro-rata, about 800 would have gone to the Midland Division, it seems reasonable to conclude that all the 10-ton brakes would have been withdrawn by the mid-1930s.

 

So in answer to your question, statistics says no. I dare say someone will now come up with an exception. But that is what it will be: an exception.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Compound2632

[cctransuk]

4 hours ago, Barclay said:

With apologies for bringing this one back to life - does anyone know if any of these 10T vans survived to Nationalisation?

 

Many thanks

 

There's one sitting, mouldering and forgotten, at the end of a remote siding in my marshalling yard.

 

I gather that it is the 'secret' haunt of shunters on wet / cold / quiet shifts - a wisp of smoke from the stove chimney is occasionally to be seen on such occasions!

 

Rule 1 rules!

 

CJI.

[Steamport Southport]

We had one at Southport so they did survive, in industrial use anyway. ISTR it came from the NCB in the mid 1970s.

 

I have a feeling it was this one. If it was we used it to store bits of LMS EMU that had been stripped from the last of the 502 and 503s as spares for the preserved ones.

 

http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=9006

 

There is also this slightly later version at the MRC which apparently came from ICI.

 

http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=7838

 

https://www.midlandrailway-butterley.co.uk/museum_goods_and_freight/

 

 

Jason

[Lee-H]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

We had one at Southport so they did survive, in industrial use anyway. ISTR it came from the NCB in the mid 1970s.

 

I have a feeling it was this one. If it was we used it to store bits of LMS EMU that had been stripped from the last of the 502 and 503s as spares for the preserved ones.

 

http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=9006

 

There is also this slightly later version at the MRC which apparently came from ICI.

 

http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=7838

 

https://www.midlandrailway-butterley.co.uk/museum_goods_and_freight/

 

 

Jason

Very useful to see these pictures. I am just finishing an old Slaters kit and have done it as per the one that ended up on the Isle of Wight Central Railway.

[Steamport Southport]

Be aware the second one at the Midland Railway Centre is a six wheel 20 Ton version. I used that as a scenario for them lasting a bit longer in industrial service for those that want an excuse to have one.

 

 

The Wemyss Private Railway in Scotland also had at least one of them, so they did get about.

 

http://www.buckhaven.info/html/wemyss_private_railway.html

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

I understood @Barclay's reference to nationalisation as implying that he was interested in brakes that survived in main line use. If we're going to look at second-hand use by minor and industrial railways, then I have some data from the MR Carriage & Wagon Committee minutes. Between 1905 and 1919, 29 old brake vans were sold off, the majority to John F. Wake of Darlington or his associates R.Y. Pickering & Co. (the Glasgow wagon-building firm) and E.E. Cornforth of Stoke-on-Trent, who together bought over 6,000 second-hand Midland wagons in this period. I presume the Wemyss Private Railway must have got theirs through one of these dealers. If the 1907 date in @Steamport Southport's link is correct, it was one of the earliest sales, either one of two to Wake in August of that year, or perhaps more likely in grounds of geography, the one sold to Pickering in October.

 

The one sold to the Isle of Wight Central is recorded in July 1911; it was sold for £30 which was the going rate up to the middle of the Great War. @Lee-H, is it known when this one was withdrawn? Midland Wagons has a photo of it in Southern livery.

 

The other sales direct to users were three in 1905 and one in 1907 to the Derwent Valley Water Board, for use on the railway from the Midland at Bamford to the Howden reservoir, and one in 1915 to the Sheffield Coal Co. for use at Birley East Pit. 

 

I haven't investigated sales by the LMS but it seems likely that they continued the Midland policy; the very last meeting of the MR Carriage & Wagon Committee on 22 February 1923 recorded the sale of 46 old 8-ton wagons.

[Barclay]

Thank you for your thoughts, and research. Luckily I am an industrial modeller so the choice was LMS or internal user. I think it will have to be the latter - and all because I picked up an old kit for £4 !

[Lee-H]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The one sold to the Isle of Wight Central is recorded in July 1911; it was sold for £30 which was the going rate up to the middle of the Great War. @Lee-H, is it known when this one was withdrawn? Midland Wagons has a photo of it in Southern livery.

I have no information on its withdrawal but if I find anything I’ll post it here. I’ve only seen one picture of it in IWC livery so that’s what my model is based on.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Lee-H said:

I have no information on its withdrawal but if I find anything I’ll post it here. I’ve only seen one picture of it in IWC livery so that’s what my model is based on.

 

I presume that's the nearly end-on view that appears as both Midland Wagons Vol 2, plate 362, and Southern Wagons, Vol. 2, plate 151. Midland Wagons, plate 363 shows it in SR livery as 56037. Southern Wagons, fig .50 and plate 152 (the latter dated 1933) show it as rebuilt in 1930 with a duplicate veranda. Southern Wagons doesn't appear to give a withdrawal date, though, which was why I was looking in it!  

 

This brake van and the 1875 12-wheel clerestory composite were the only vehicles sold directly to the IWC but looking in Southern Wagons I see there were also six covered goods wagons and four ballast wagons. The covered goods wagons were of the low type built up to 1892, Midland diagram D353. Again J.F. Wake and his associates bought a good many - 189 - at £20 or £23 each up to the Great War. At a guess, £20 would be for the low-roofed vans and £23 for higher-roofed D357 ones; it's the £20 ones that were being bought first, including half-a-dozen in April 1909 and another half-dozen in August of that year, so either batch might be the IWC ones.

 

The ballast wagons, stated to have been bought in 1911, are curious. There's no an obvious match in my list, though it's possible that (a) not all sales were minuted or (b) I've missed some. Southern Wagons states that they were officially 13' 6" x 7' 5" x 1' 9", which corresponds to Midland lowside wagons built from the 1860s up to 1874, but also reports that one was measured to be 14' 11" long and indeed the three in the photo plate 156 have features that identify them as wagons to Drg. 213, built 1877-88. It's perfectly possible that wagons of both types were in the breaking-up queue in 1911 and the IWC got sent something a little better than what the paperwork said! Or even these wagons were a free transfer? (I wonder if there was a Midland Director on the IWC Board?)

 

Both these lowside wagons and the low covered wagons can be bashed from the Slater's kits. (In the case of the covered wagon that should perhaps be "I hope" since I'm only part-way through my bash!)

 

 

[Lee-H]

On 13/04/2023 at 12:09, Compound2632 said:

 

I presume that's the nearly end-on view that appears as both Midland Wagons Vol 2, plate 362, and Southern Wagons, Vol. 2, plate 151. Midland Wagons, plate 363 shows it in SR livery as 56037.

 

Thank you for a very informative reply. I’m attaching the picture of it in IWC livery. I had intended to do an LMS version until I found this picture. Having a longstanding interest in the IoW railways but very little in model form I thought this would make a nice addition.

[Compound2632]

40 minutes ago, Lee-H said:

I’m attaching the picture of it in IWC livery.

 

that is indeed the photo in both Midland Wagons and Southern Wagons. Presumably the only photo in IWC livery!