GWR Toplights Poll

[SteamingWales]

With all the excitement of the recent Dapol announcement and the mention of corridor versions I thought I would come over to this thread to do a bit more learning on the subject as I have zero knowledge regards "Toplights".

 

A quick skim and scan through the thread and much of the talk is about the coaches in service during the GWR period and not much during BR, so I have 3 questions. (Thought here was the most appropraite place to ask)

 

1. When were the last withdrawals of the corridor stock?

 

2. What livery would they have been in in BR service

 

3. Were the coaches widespread across the GWR/WR network unlike the ones Dapol have just announced?

 

Cheers 

 

NB I model the Cambrian network circa 1960. Currently planning a representation of Aberystwyth engine shed

 

 

[RJS1977]

7 minutes ago, SteamingWales said:

Currently planning a representation of Aberystwyth engine shed

 

 

 

I've built that - three times! (Assuming you mean the 1938 shed).

 

v1 was quite a crude model scratchbuilt from card when I was a student. The model sat in the corner of my L-shaped Aberystwyth Mark 1 layout, and concealed a 90 degree bend in the Cambrian line.  This was 'lost' some time after Mk1 was dismantled and Mk2 built.

v2 was a 'bashed' pair of Metcalfe loco sheds, with the window arches disguised with stone/concrete lintels.

v3 was built the same way, replacing v2 after it was crushed in a house move.

[Miss Prism]

32 minutes ago, SteamingWales said:

1. When were the last withdrawals of the corridor stock?

 

They became very rare by the late 1950s. Not sure when the last withdrawal was.

 

32 minutes ago, SteamingWales said:

2. What livery would they have been in in BR service

 

They would have started their BR service in their last GWR livery. Thereafter crimson and cream (from 1949). Some of the corridor toplights probably got lined maroon post-1956, but I can't recall a picture offhand (not having my Russell books handy). Repainting Toplights was never a priority, and many of them probably ended their days in their last GWR livery.

 

32 minutes ago, SteamingWales said:

3. Were the coaches widespread across the GWR/WR network unlike the ones Dapol have just announced.

 

Yes. Although there were the usual restrictions for the 70' stock of course.

 

[RJS1977]

Another question - did toplights tend to run in rakes with other toplights, or did they get jumbled up with other coaches (particularly later in their careers)?

[SteamingWales]

1 hour ago, RJS1977 said:

 

I've built that - three times! (Assuming you mean the 1938 shed).

 

v1 was quite a crude model scratchbuilt from card when I was a student. The model sat in the corner of my L-shaped Aberystwyth Mark 1 layout, and concealed a 90 degree bend in the Cambrian line.  This was 'lost' some time after Mk1 was dismantled and Mk2 built.

v2 was a 'bashed' pair of Metcalfe loco sheds, with the window arches disguised with stone/concrete lintels.

v3 was built the same way, replacing v2 after it was crushed in a house move.

 

Yes @RJS1977. The 1938 shed. I will create a topic on here at some point (he says), as the shed (and coal stage) are currently under consturction and are currently just a pile of greyboard and plasticard and strips

 

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

 

They became very rare by the late 1950s. Not sure when the last withdrawal was.

 

 

They would have started their BR service in their last GWR livery. Thereafter crimson and cream (from 1949). Some of the corridor toplights probably got lined maroon post-1956, but I can't recall a picture offhand (not having my Russell books handy). Repainting Toplights was never a priority, and many of them probably ended their days in their last GWR livery.

 

 

Yes. Although there were the usual restrictions for the 70' stock of course.

 

 

Much appreciated @Miss Prism. So I guess depending what Dapol produce maybe 1 or 2 would be a sensible purchase? I'm sure a couple in a mixed rake behind a Dukedog on a local service would be a sensible option?

[Miss Prism]

15 minutes ago, SteamingWales said:

Much appreciated @Miss Prism. So I guess depending what Dapol produce maybe 1 or 2 would be a sensible purchase? I'm sure a couple in a mixed rake behind a Dukedog on a local service would be a sensible option?

 

https://flic.kr/p/2mRVfkS

 

 

[SteamingWales]

Thanks a lot 

 

Just been having a quick flick through the other photos on there and found this one of 75023 at Aber with Toplights!

 

https://flic.kr/p/Y8GHuE

[Coach bogie]

17 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

https://flic.kr/p/2mRVfkS

 

 

This picture shows up the challenge with toplights, again. They may have been built as toplights but by this time all the toplights have been plated over. I am curious how Dapol will approach this.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Miss Prism]

3 minutes ago, Coach bogie said:

I am curious how Dapol will approach this.

 

They won't. Anyone who is desperate for plated over bodies and toplights will need to start messing around with 10 thou plasticard.

 

[Welchester]

19 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

Another question - did toplights tend to run in rakes with other toplights, or did they get jumbled up with other coaches (particularly later in their careers)?

 

It was almost a rule on the Great Western Railway that, apart from sets used for principal express trains, no two coaches of the same type could be coupled together.

[Miss Prism]

I did a quick totting up of preserved Toplights. Some of these are in various states of rebuild/decrepitude/inauthenticity. I've probably missed some!

 

1145 (a K22) at Severn Valley
2426 (a C30) at Severn Valley
2573 (a C32) at Blue Anchor
2578 (a C32) at Minehead
3631 (a C28) at Williton
3639 (a C28) at Williton
3963 (a C35) at Didcot
3665 (a C28) at Williton
3668 (a C28) at Bishops Lydeard
3755 (a D62) at Didcot
3756 (a D62) at Didcot
3885 (a C32) at Blue Anchor
3930 (a C32) on the Severn Valley
3980 (a C35) at Blue Anchor
7538 (an E83) at Williton
7545 (an E83) at Cricklade
9055 (a G43) at Severn Valley

 

[Coach bogie]

Here is a couple of the Blue Anchor ones.

 

There were also a couple at llangollen

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Penrhos1920]

Well I now need a new hat !!

 

 

.....and a small metro tank.

[rprodgers]

It seems ironic that non corridor Toplight coaches (selecting a prototype that was limited to only a few routes) generally  fared the worst in this poll and yet Dapol have chosen them for their first foray into Toplights

 

Also having decided to produce them in the Lake livery there are not presently any suitable/ likely rtr GW tank locos from the increasingly  popular pre- grouping period.

 

Hopefully things will improve in this area with suitable pre-grouping GW tank locos to haul not only these but the 4/6 wheel generic coaches of Hattons and Hornby.

[Craigw]

12 minutes ago, rprodgers said:

It seems ironic that non corridor Toplight coaches (selecting a prototype that was limited to only a few routes) generally  fared the worst in this poll and yet Dapol have chosen them for their first foray into Toplights

 

Also having decided to produce them in the Lake livery there are not presently any suitable/ likely rtr GW tank locos from the increasingly  popular pre- grouping period.

 

Hopefully things will improve in this area with suitable pre-grouping GW tank locos to haul not only these but the 4/6 wheel generic coaches of Hattons and Hornby.

 

They are short coaches and they operated in fixed sets. The Lake livery is simply a bonus livery (It is the one I will get) but they will go nicely withe 51XX and 61XX. In the 1920s Dean Goods and the 43XX were used on passenger workings as were the 45XX tanks so it is not stretching things too much to widen their use to include them. If people are prepared to accept freelance coaches from the other two mobs you mentioned, then I cannot see them getting too worked up about using these with different locos. Hopefully these will increase awareness of Toplights and encourage Dapol to produce corridor coaches. I suspect they will stick to the steel body ones but would be delighted to be wrong.

 

Craig W

[Neal Ball]

9 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

Well I now need a new hat !!

 

 

.....and a small metro tank.

That’s a lovely photo.

 

Hopefully we will get a nice Metro tank to haul the mainline and city stock.

[The Stationmaster]

On 04/02/2022 at 13:45, Miss Prism said:

 

They won't. Anyone who is desperate for plated over bodies and toplights will need to start messing around with 10 thou plasticard.

 

Plated over is not of course exactly what happened with parts of the coaches.  Outer panels were renewed (possibly on the original timber frames or frames were partially replaced) with new panels and no mouldings were added on the new panels the holes being filled instead.   Toplights might well have been tackled in the same way as it would be simpler that covering over the original toplight?

 

Putting on 10 thou plasticard is only going to bulk out the vehicle and then it's a question of matching the paint colour and finish.   This is one reason why manufacturers have previously steered clear of toplights - the difficulty and considerable increase in manufacturing cost in getting bodysides done properly for the varying conditions which the vehicles sides presented over the years 9which probably weren't consistent in any case over more than a handful of vehicles.

 

The manufacturer really has only one economic choice - pick a point in the life of the chosen vehicles and model that while forgetting any earlier or later variations except for livery.  Then simply apply whatever liveries they think will sell and trust to people buying them even if they are 'wrong'.  That is probably what Dapol will do if they are watching their costs carefully and with 'generic' coaches now seemingly accepted by many modellers I expect they could still be commercially successful.

 

As I've mentioned previouslky I think the obvious targets will be teh 57 foot vehicles.  Some of the GWR 70 foot vehicles had relatively good route availability on the GWR network (including some branchlines )but were severely restricted in where they could go beyond it  whereas various of the 57 footers could go further afield unless they had wide bodies.

[Miss Prism]

My 'plated over' and '10 thou' were figurative.

[Steamport Southport]

I just hope they don't pick the same ones as Slaters did/hopefully will reissue soon.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

On 04/02/2022 at 14:02, Welchester said:

 

It was almost a rule on the Great Western Railway that, apart from sets used for principal express trains, no two coaches of the same type could be coupled together.

 

And that, should it be unfortunately necessary to marshall two of the same type together, they should be in different liveries and/or the corridors should be on opposite sides. 

[Coach bogie]

On 05/02/2022 at 22:51, The Johnster said:

 

And that, should it be unfortunately necessary to marshall two of the same type together, they should be in different liveries and/or the corridors should be on opposite sides. 

and with different bogies......

 

I am just finishing this one. A H16 top light (despite not having any top lights) diner. It had three different bogies in its' life. Tis one would be a nightmare for the rtr boys as it was rebuilt twice, on the last occasion,  with new mk1 style windows, completely changing the look. The roof layout was changed several times.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited February 7, 2022 by Coach bogie

[57xx]

On 05/02/2022 at 22:40, Steamport Southport said:

I just hope they don't pick the same ones as Slaters did/hopefully will reissue soon.

 

I hope they have picked the diagrams that give broadest appeal and give them the best sales. If that overlaps with the old Slaters kits, then so be it.

[Coach bogie]

4 minutes ago, 57xx said:

 

I hope they have picked the diagrams that give broadest appeal and give them the best sales. If that overlaps with the old Slaters kits, then so be it.

But it is a risk. There are many of us who have built/had built Geen/Blacksmith/Charlton/Frogmore/Slaters top lights who are unlikely to buy diagrams already built and running from these sources.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[57xx]

3 minutes ago, Coach bogie said:

But it is a risk. There are many of us who have built/had built Geen/Blacksmith/Charlton/Frogmore/Slaters top lights who are unlikely to buy diagrams already built and running from these sources.

 

Likewise, there are many of us who haven't built any coach kits at all for whatever reasons (perhaps more so than those who have).

Per my post, if picking a particular diagram is going to them broadest appeal and best sales, they'd be daft not to do it.  I don't see that as a risk, just good business.

[Edwardian]

On 03/02/2022 at 18:55, RJS1977 said:

Another question - did toplights tend to run in rakes with other toplights, or did they get jumbled up with other coaches (particularly later in their careers)?

 

Let's put it this way, the Hornby corridor Colletts and the Dapol corridor toplights really need each other !