GWR Toplights Poll

[81C]

Hi Neal I've deleted my vote please let me know via PM when you have finished with the alterations so can submit a fresh vote.

[Neal Ball]

Hi Neal I've deleted my vote please let me know via PM when you have finished with the alterations so can submit a fresh vote.

 

 

I think there are enough variations - I doubt we need to add anymore.

 

Regards, Neal.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Neal Ball

[HowardGWR]

Seeing as Multibar Toplights generally if not wholly had battery boxes and Bars I and II sometimes had gas and sometimes had battery boxes, I think it makes sense to ignore gas if only to make roofs simpler  (with less holes).

Coachmann

In your previous post in the second sentence you referred to D95 and I think you meant E95.  Coincidentally it was post #95.  Spooky or what?  Perhaps you could kindly amend if that is the case?  (I always think about newcomers to the subject).  Hope this is helpful.   

[Coppercap]

As much as I'd like to vote (and I'd love to have some Toplight coaches, maybe six or so), I really don't know what to choose for the last two questions (and particularly the last one), and all sections have to be answered...

[coachmann]

As much as I'd like to vote (and I'd love to have some Toplight coaches, maybe six or so), I really don't know what to choose for the last two questions (and particularly the last one), and all sections have to be answered...

I suspect a lot of people go for a 'brake third' or 'composite' rather than a specific diagram number when making a purchase. After all the box shifters rarely quote diagram numbers. 

[Clearwater]

A quick question about "plating over." What physically was done? Was a panel overlaid over the toplight or was the glass replaced by a piece of steel?

 

Would I be right in assuming this was another area of complete non uniformity where toplights were plated over rather than eg replace broken glass and hence done on an ad hoc basis by whichever local depot the coach happened to be on?

 

David

[coachmann]

A coach would be stripped of cladding in order to examine the framework for rot. It would be a simple matter to put the window bollections back into the frame following remedial treatment and then affix specially shaped steel panels in the remaining areas. The toplights and any exterior panelling would therefore simply disappear. Such rebuilds still had a different appearance to the 1920's high-waist Collett Stock because of their deeper cantrail and external bolections.

Edited January 14, 2017 by coachmann

[Pendennis]

Gents

 

Having voted early on, how do I delete my vote so that I can do so again, taking into account the more recently added options?  I note that several posters claim to have deleted their initial vote, but I can find no way of doing it.

 

Confused of Windlesham

[The Fatadder]

Gents

 

Having voted early on, how do I delete my vote so that I can do so again, taking into account the more recently added options?  I note that several posters claim to have deleted their initial vote, but I can find no way of doing it.

 

Confused of Windlesham

If you scroll to the bottom of the vote screen there is a button labelled delete my vote

[Clearwater]

Over the last couple of nights, I've set myself the task of putting the tables at the back of Harris into Excel.  Reason being that I find excel a more friendly format to be able to manipulate data, eg add up numbers built under the same diagram etc.  Spreadsheet available on request!  I'm sure I will have made some mistakes through lack of understanding and others through my inept copy typing.  To make this somewhat Herculean task more manageable, I've focused on adding in the C (range C28-38), D (D44-D57) and E (E82-104) series coaches ignoring A, H and K crudely.  In terms of methodology, my spreadsheet includes all of the different lengths of coaches and I've included the ex-Ambulance stock, mostly coverted in the early 1920s, into the same series.  If those are the wrong ranges, please let me know and I'll correct.

 

However, I thought it would be useful to share.  Given it's a spreadsheet, it's a simple task to resort to show a different analysis, eg number of 70' coaches etc.  Notable to me is there are roughly 2x as many thirds as brakes and composites.  Of the thirds, the C31 appears to be the most numerous, by a distance, D47 a narrow winner and E88 in the respective series.

 

This interestingly, and probably unsurprisingly, tallies with the existing kit/partial kit make-ups:

Coopercraft/Slater: C28, C31, D47, E88, E95

David Geen: C29. C32, C38.  I'd assume that David steered clear of the C31 given the Slater kit

CPL (7mm) - C30, C31, D45, D52, E83

JLTRT (7mm): C31, D47, E88 (the leaders in each category on my analysis)

Worsley - C32, C38, D56, E98

 

David

 

[Siberian Snooper]

Hi David,

 

Could you please make the spreadsheet available as an attachment, once you have completed it, as I am struggling to read it. Failing eyesight and the onset of cataracts don't help.

[The Fatadder]

So based on this the 3 most common diagrams would be the C31 third, D56 Brake and E88 composite.

 

It would be interesting to overlay the withdraw dates over these quantities if the data is easily available.  Though I guess the variation in plating over the panelling etc would probably still be a problem still.  

Edited January 14, 2017 by The Fatadder

[RJS1977]

If they were built to 'modern standards' I wouldn't buy any - I can't afford them!

[Clearwater]

Spreadsheet attached here.  If anyone picks up any errors, rather than clog the thread, please PM me.  I agree with Rick (Fatadder) that withdrawal dates might make a useful additional column however I suspect the withdrawals were over a number of years .  Perhaps the date of last of the diagram to be withdrawn?  From Coachmann's comment above, I'd assume tracking when and where changes such as plating over were made would be nigh on impossible.

 

The raw data is on the first tab and the graphs / summary is on the Analysis tab.  You'll note I abbreviated Harris in parts, eg I used 1 for Bars 1 etc. 

 

David

 

Toplight analysis.xlsx

[Neal Ball]

To date we have had 93 votes and 2400 views on the thread, with 5 pages of comment.

 

I am surprised that the consensus is for 57ft corridor stock at the moment. I would have thought non corridor would make a change, and of course be more practical for a good many layouts.

 

Overall it's very pleasing to see how engaging the debate has been, it's not even a week yet!

[The Fatadder]

To date we have had 93 votes and 2400 views on the thread, with 5 pages of comment.

 

I am surprised that the consensus is for 57ft corridor stock at the moment. I would have thought non corridor would make a change, and of course be more practical for a good many layouts.

I think that might be an interesting topic in its self.

 

Is the reason the majority seem to be interested in the corridor stock is that people are either building branchline layouts (and are focusing on branches which used either B Sets or Auto working) or mainline layouts away from the urban areas (for Brent in 1947 for example there were only 2 workings using non corridor stock, both using the same set containing a Third and Break Third.) 

 

I don't recall seeing many layouts set in the London or Birmingham areas containing lots of non corridor stock (I'm afraid my knowledge outside of Devon and Somerset is somewhat limited, so I cant say where else non corridor coaches were in abundance (other than B Sets).   Now whether this is because of the lack of available models, or because people genuinely are not interested in this sort of theme...

[Neal Ball]

I think that might be an interesting topic in its self.

 

Is the reason the majority seem to be interested in the corridor stock is that people are either building branchline layouts (and are focusing on branches which used either B Sets or Auto working) or mainline layouts away from the urban areas (for Brent in 1947 for example there were only 2 workings using non corridor stock, both using the same set containing a Third and Break Third.) 

 

I don't recall seeing many layouts set in the London or Birmingham areas containing lots of non corridor stock (I'm afraid my knowledge outside of Devon and Somerset is somewhat limited, so I cant say where else non corridor coaches were in abundance (other than B Sets).   Now whether this is because of the lack of available models, or because people genuinely are not interested in this sort of theme...

Of course for Henley, I need a mix of both. Plus there was a single slip in the branch train formation for a few years in the 30's

[Clearwater]

Ultimately my GWR aspirations are West Midlands based. Warwickshire railways is an invaluable research tool and has this interesting piece, admittedly not toplights, about non-corridor stock in Birmingham.

 

David

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrms1787.htm

[Coach bogie]

When it comes to what diagrams etc, along with some others, I model to particular trains from clear dated images. I do not look to acquire entire trains of a particular style as normal service trains did not appear like that. Even a 1935 complete train of centenary stock had slip coaches from an earlier era, as there were no other slips at the time.

 

As a result, my trains have a mix from all eras. For instance my K22 toplight is rarely seen in a passenger train and is often formed into trains based on images like this.

 

 

Manufacturers will want coaches from the same style/batch to achieve economies of scale, whilst awkward modellers like me look for a real eclectic mix of style, lengths, widths etc. That's why I support the cottage kit producers who produce the varied mix of carriages found in many images of the time.

Mike Wiltshire

[Neal Ball]

When it comes to what diagrams etc, ....

Manufacturers will want coaches from the same style/batch to achieve economies of scale, whilst awkward modellers like me look for a real eclectic mix of style, lengths, widths etc. That's why I support the cottage kit producers who produce the varied mix of carriages found in many images of the time.

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

Thats a great photo Mike and one that I would like to emulate for Henley as well.

 

There are several things that stop me using more kits. Clearly for something different (Toplights) from Slaters were great as they were plastic and I didn't need to wield the soldering iron. But I also found them fiddly and didn't go together as easily as (say) a Parkside Dundas kit. So having the required skill set is one thing. Having the time is another. sadly, that means that if I can go into Guagemaster or order on-line for a new carriage, that is going to be my preferred option. If I can then add a few extra items, such as passengers, lights to change the overall look and feel then I will do.

 

Having said all that though, I could probably make up a train similar to your photo from the various kits I have already made! But my loco of choice for that would probably be a Hall.

 

Ordinary passenger stock to me means metal kits for variety, or maybe metal sides laid over some old Hornby 57ft stock.... maybe one day. If in the meantime we could get some RTR Toplights and persuade Bachmann to update / replace their sunshine stock then that will clearly be great all round!

[BMacdermott]

Hi Brian how are you getting on with my request.

Regards 

Hello 81c

 

The best John can offer is that plating over may have started in the later 1930s but there are no actual records that he knows of. All part of the difficulty in sorting out what is a major task!

 

Brian

[Clearwater]

I agree Mike on both counts. If there are to be rtr toplights, I'd strongly favour them NOT repeating readily available diagrams from kit manufacturers. I may draw an exception on what is not produced by coopercraft though!

 

On variety, if you want to be very varied, I don't think rtr is ever going to be able to produce a full set of diagrams. It's only ever going to be a stepping stone, on the full range from collectors to cut and shutters, but to have some carriages where we currently have none available has to be an improvement.

 

David

[81C]

Hello 81c

 

The best John can offer is that plating over may have started in the later 1930s but there are no actual records that he knows of. All part of the difficulty in sorting out what is a major task!

 

Brian

Thanks for spending the time checking it out, Neal is not including plated over coaches in this poll would this be reflected in the 2017 poll/wish list ?.

 

Regards 

[The Fatadder]

When it comes to what diagrams etc, along with some others, I model to particular trains from clear dated images. I do not look to acquire entire trains of a particular style as normal service trains did not appear like that. Even a 1935 complete train of centenary stock had slip coaches from an earlier era, as there were no other slips at the time.

 

As a result, my trains have a mix from all eras. For instance my K22 toplight is rarely seen in a passenger train and is often formed into trains based on images like this.

 

king parcels 1.jpg

 

Manufacturers will want coaches from the same style/batch to achieve economies of scale, whilst awkward modellers like me look for a real eclectic mix of style, lengths, widths etc. That's why I support the cottage kit producers who produce the varied mix of carriages found in many images of the time.

Mike Wiltshire

What a great photo.

So based on the first 7 coaches (please correct me if I am wrong, as I almost surely will be...)  The first coach is the K22, inside framed Monster, either a Diag 04 Siphon or a Siphon C, something LNER?, Siphon G (inside frame), Siphon H outside frame, another passenger brake van to which I cant determine the diagram.

 

So, how have I done?

[BMacdermott]

Thanks for spending the time checking it out, Neal is not including plated over coaches in this poll would this be reflected in the 2017 poll/wish list ?.

 

Regards 

Hello 81C

 

It would be impossible for us to list every variation... hence we noted certain diagrams in The Poll Guide as possibly meeting the needs of many. The 2016 Poll listed 22 GWR coach types/ranges; Neal's list of Toplights only is about the same content. As we said in the Poll Q&A, there are over 400 types of GWR diagrams, so we have to draw a line somewhere.

 

Neal's survey is a way of trying to sort wheat from chaff.

 

Brian