GWR Toplights Poll

[Neal Ball]

Hello 81C

 

It would be impossible for us to list every variation... hence we noted certain diagrams in The Poll Guide as possibly meeting the needs of many. The 2016 Poll listed 22 GWR coach types/ranges; Neal's list of Toplights only is about the same content. As we said in the Poll Q&A, there are over 400 types of GWR diagrams, so we have to draw a line somewhere.

 

Neal's survey is a way of trying to sort wheat from chaff.

 

Brian

 

 

To be honest, that is why the ex-Ambulance stock was not included in my original list. I think for any manufacturer to make an RTR of anything we know definitely was modified, would mean they will be on a hiding to nothing.

 

Clearly any carriage being built and introduced into traffic around 1909, by the time it got to the Nationalisation period would have been altered over the years - hopefully not enough to detract from its overall appeal. If we transfer this to modern day, Mark 3 carriages were introduced in the 1970's and some 40+ years later are still in service. However, none in their original style - whilst the majority of the changes are to do with seating layout, the Restaurant carriages have all significantly changed.

 

Neal.

[Miss Prism]

Btw, if anyone wants to identify a diagram from a running number, see Glyn Jones' excellent word doc:

http://mmrs.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/GW-coach-numbers.doc

 

 

[Clearwater]

A coach would be stripped of cladding in order to examine the framework for rot. It would be a simple matter to put the window bollections back into the frame following remedial treatment and then affix specially shaped steel panels in the remaining areas. The toplights and any exterior panelling would therefore simply disappear. Such rebuilds still had a different appearance to the 1920's high-waist Collett Stock because of their deeper cantrail and external bolections.

Thanks Larry. So if I understand correctly, the steel panel would stand every so slightly proud of the original bolection and hence a couple of inches or so in front of the old plate glass? My thinking is to what extent, an rtr compromise would be in the painting stage to paint the toplight the appropriate colour and therefore try and save some tooling cost. If my logic is right, those who aren't fussed won't care, but those who do want to plate over can still stick plasticard or whatever over it.

 

David

[nigel newling]

As plating was so random, I think we GWR disciples will have to accept that any r-t-r toplights are going to be full panelled and it will be up to us how we achieve the random panelling look. The alternative is to stick with only the steel panelled later production, which would be a shame. Incidentally, D47s were split between the BARS I and BARS II bodywork panelling. I was taken to task by Coach Bogie for missing that in an earlier coach identification thread. :-)

[Coach bogie]

What a great photo.

So based on the first 7 coaches (please correct me if I am wrong, as I almost surely will be...)  The first coach is the K22, inside framed Monster, either a Diag 04 Siphon or a Siphon C, something LNER?, Siphon G (inside frame), Siphon H outside frame, another passenger brake van to which I cant determine the diagram.

 

So, how have I done?

 

Vehicle 4 is actually GWR and is the unique diagram M13  70ft van. For a time, despite the outside framing, it as chocolate and cream. This van was the reason I bought this shot as it is the only view I have of it in motion, usually shots are in loading bays.

 

Vehicle 5 is a siphon J insulated milk van

 

Vehicle 7 is questionably a K40. The image gets a bit grainy by then to be sure. What is unusual is there is large label branding at each end.

 

There is only one rtr vehicle in the entire train - vehicle 6  a Siphon H.

 

Mike Wiltshire

As plating was so random, I think we GWR disciples will have to accept that any r-t-r toplights are going to be full panelled and it will be up to us how we achieve the random panelling look. The alternative is to stick with only the steel panelled later production, which would be a shame. W!

When was this?

Mike Wiltshire

Edited January 15, 2017 by Coach bogie

[Coach bogie]

As plating was so random, I think we GWR disciples will have to accept that any r-t-r toplights are going to be full panelled and it will be up to us how we achieve the random panelling look. The alternative is to stick with only the steel panelled later production, which would be a shame. Incidentally, D47s were split between the BARS I and BARS II bodywork panelling. I was taken to task by Coach Bogie for missing that in an earlier coach identification thread. :-)

 Found it. That was the quote from David Geen, 2 years ago, who had investigated this shot.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/83492-gwr-toplight-indentification/

 

As for bars I , II, multibar, my eyes usually begin to roll with the complexity.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[The Fatadder]

Vehicle 4 is actually GWR and is the unique diagram M13  70ft van. For a time, despite the outside framing, it as chocolate and cream. This van was the reason I bought this shot as it is the only view I have of it in motion, usually shots are in loading bays.

 

Vehcile 5 is a siphon J insulated milk van

 

Vehicle 7 is questionably a K40. The image gets a bit grainy by then to be sure. What is unusual is there is large label branding at each end.

 

There is only one rtr vehicle in the entire train - vehicle 6  a Siphon H.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

When was this?

Mike Wiltshire

Thanks for the additional info,

 

Vehicle 5 - my first ought was a Siphon J but I convinced myself otherwise... time to dig out and finish off my Mallard one, I seem to recall being unhappy with the roof.

 

The M13 is certainly a bit different!

[Mikkel]

What a great photo.

So based on the first 7 coaches (please correct me if I am wrong, as I almost surely will be...)  The first coach is the K22, inside framed Monster, either a Diag 04 Siphon or a Siphon C, something LNER?, Siphon G (inside frame), Siphon H outside frame, another passenger brake van to which I cant determine the diagram.

 

So, how have I done?

 

I think vehicle 3 is an 04, as the framing seems to extend to the roof.

[coachmann]

Thanks Larry. So if I understand correctly, the steel panel would stand every so slightly proud of the original bolection and hence a couple of inches or so in front of the old plate glass? My thinking is to what extent, an rtr compromise would be in the painting stage to paint the toplight the appropriate colour and therefore try and save some tooling cost. If my logic is right, those who aren't fussed won't care, but those who do want to plate over can still stick plasticard or whatever over it.

 

David

The first thing to understand is the body construction. The bolections remained on the same plain. Originally the body sheeting went in place around the bolections leaving the bolection proud of the side, then the shaped wooden decorative panelling was added to cover the joints. This reduced the amount of bolection projecting from the side panels. When a coach was flush clad, the raised panelling was missing altogether and so the window bolections stuck out more. When a coach retained most of its raised panelling but had some of it sheeted over, the sheeting was generally on top of the raised beading.

 

I admit I haven't gone into this before now, becasue it barely matters in 4mm scale. 

[sdh-stbriavels]

Just come across the survey - great idea

 

I had raised the question myself on the Hornby website, but this survey approach definitely has more merit to it

 

Last year I bought 4 David Geen Toplights which I am going to have to wait until next year for them to be made and will cost a small fortune in relation to an RTR version (I wish I could solder and paint) 

 

Notwithstanding that I would still be very interested in buying RTR as well - can't have enough of a good thing

[HowardGWR]

One big bonus for modellers, if RTR toplights come out with a fishbelly (1914?) bogie, is that, hopefully, they will be sold as spares for replacing damaged ones, in which case the current apparent dearth of this type would come in very usefully for those of us engaged in various projects.  I find accurate plastic bogies to be a delicate improvement on the more rugged white metal examples.  

[Neal Ball]

3 weeks down the line, 101 members have voted....

 

There are 135 replies to the debate about which model to produce and at the moment some 3200 plus views on the poll.

 

Any more votes?

 

The annual wish list poll had 300+ votes for Toplight carriages.....

[Clearwater]

Neall

 

I'm conscious the annual wish list is publicised in various places. Have you placed a link in any of those to this site?

 

David

[Neal Ball]

Neall

 

I'm conscious the annual wish list is publicised in various places. Have you placed a link in any of those to this site?

 

David

 

 

Not on any model rail forums No. But I have added the details periodically on Facebook - Model railway group and tweeted the details as well.

[Neal Ball]

It's just over 6 weeks since we launched this Poll.

 

So far we have 105 votes - bit different from the Annual wish-list Poll, when Toplight carriages managed to get 300+ votes I wonder why that is?

 

It looks as if the most popular era is the 1930's shirt button with 51 votes and RM Web members would be prepared to pay up to £50 (40% of votes) and maybe at a pinch up to £60 (23%). Potentially people would be buying 6 or 8 carriages

 

As for the type of carriage, I was surprised as I thought we might get some different requests, but in the main it's main-line stock (57ft etc.) with around 70 votes each for Corridor: Compo; Brake 3rd (handed); Brake compo. I would have hoped for more requests for full brakes, but at only 57 votes, that represents 11% of requests - but I would still hope a manufacturer would take that particular leap!

 

Similarly, I would have hoped for more Restaurant votes or Slip votes. Personally I voted for the non-corridor stock, but these only have garnered 5% of votes.

 

When it comes to actual diagrams, the votes are cast across many different carriages and it is hard to identify any clear winners. The 57ft corridor stock manages to get around 10% of votes.

 

The Poll is not closed - you can still add your votes, or amend of you want to change them (Delete the vote and start again.) Thanks to everyone so far for the comments.

 

Neal.

[Rabs]

Could somebody add "4mm" to the thread title?  This n gauger just got a dose of dashed hope!

[Neal Ball]

Could somebody add "4mm" to the thread title?  This n gauger just got a dose of dashed hope!

Done.

[Garethp8873]

Whilst down to pick up the new Hornby Merchant Navy today, I happened to go past Kidderminster Station and saw the GWR carriages at the platform. Thinking nothing of it I went and got the Merchant Navy. On the way back though, I headed into the station and starting snapping the carriages there. Getting to the end of the rake, I came across GWR Toplight Carriage Third 2426, the oldest GWR Coach at the SVR and last Toplight that requires to overhauled. This made my purchasing the Merchant Navy worth it...!!

 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Garethp8873

[Neal Ball]

Strangely I have just been looking at this on Flickr - switch over to RMWeb and see it again :-)

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/svr_enthusiast/with/33119142751/

 

Thanks for sharing Gareth

Edited March 14, 2017 by Neal Ball

[gwrrob]

That fruit Y2 van has turned a funny colour,I thought they were brown vehicles.

[Neal Ball]

We now have 108 members votes - still quite a way short of the 300 odd that the annual survey has received - would anyone else like to express their views?

 

Thanks,

[Garethp8873]

That fruit Y2 van has turned a funny colour,I thought they were brown vehicles.

 

Since I've been doing railway photo back in 2008, GWR 2303 was always parked next to the GWR Hawksworth Sleeper at Kidderminster Station platform. Since the arrival of the last GWR Outside Framed Van body (37150) on the Valley, 2303's duties were eventually transferred to the van body following an tidy up and it's been relieved of those duties. From what I know it is usually in the Carriage Shed these days.

[Garethp8873]

Strangely I have just been looking at this on Flickr - switch over to RMWeb and see it again :-)

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/svr_enthusiast/with/33119142751/

 

Thanks for sharing Gareth

 

The last time I photographed 2426 Neal was back in 2010, when it was at Hampton Loade parked between the BR Fruit D and Caledonian 10t Goods Van 304543. Since then I never photographed it as I couldn't get a good shot. Then last year, Caledonian 304543 left Hampton Loade for her new home at Ferryhill in Aberdeen in March followed by 2426 in late 2016 and has been in storage at the Carriage Shed to dry out and await the overhauls of her fellow Collett Bow-Ended sisters.

 

Today has been the day I awaited for and it was worth it...!! It also pleases me to hear you say you first saw it on Flickr...!!

Edited March 14, 2017 by Garethp8873

[Neal Ball]

10 months down the line and 109 members have voted for their suggestion about a new range of Toplight carriages R-T-R - is this enough to convince Bachmann to produce new carriages? I hope so their Sunshine are way beyond their self life and have more than paid for the moulds by now.

 

Which is an interesting point - I wonder off the moulds were renewed a while ago? At the Bachmann open day back in the summer I asked about the DCC sound Pannier that was announced a few years ago. Apparently they found the moulds were shot, which is why there hasn't been a new 8750 0-6-0PT for ages. There was speculation from the Bachmann chap that they would produce a new one soon and would not want Hornby to produce one.

 

Sadly, although they are getting through their backlog, things still seem to be slow at Barwell.

 

Heres hoping for some new Toplight and a new 8750 (DCC sound fitted would be a bonus!)

[Miss Prism]

Not surprising the Pannier moulds are knackered. I wonder how many thousands Mainline and now Bachmann have shifted from those tools! And it would be difficult to significantly improve on the Mainline moulding, which remains remarkable for its time. (Was it 1980 they first appeared?)

 

The 57xx/8750 Churchward/Collett pannier remains an essential though in the RTR oeuvre, and I can understand Bachmann being keen that Hornby (or anyone else) shouldn't steal their GWR cashcow.