NCE Power Cab or Prodigy Advance - Which one to go for

[Ian Abel]

 

How many locos (no sound, points or anything else) could you run with the NCE out of the box?

 

From personal experience, "documented" in that I kept track of what I was doing, but also definitely "unscientific" as I have many very different locos that I'm sure draw different current;

 

My starting point was my 4-track mainline, with large terminal off a junction, and large engine shed with turntable. Over 300ft of track and around 50 points/slips.

 

i) Initial test was running 4 trains - 2 steam locos hauling 5 Bachmann Mk1s each, one 4-CEP and a 2 x 2-Bil consist. never seemed to go above .5 amps even when I used some older steam locos, DJH custom builds instead of newer motored Bachmann/Hornby

ii) Adding 2 x 4-coach rakes of Hornby LIT Pullmans sitting at platforms pushed it to about .7 amps.

iii) I could still run the turntable (driven using a DCC loco chip/motor drive) and shunt a fifth engine around the shed area. .8 amps

iv) Added a couple of sound steam locos and we're starting to push 1 amp often.

 

I started powering points with DCC Concepts Digital iPs - very low INDIVIDUAL current draw.

Initial installs of a few points and running them one at a time or in pairs on single slips had minimal impact over the above running set, sometimes seeing 1.xx amps draw.

 

THEN...

I added the USB board for a JMRI connection and started building routes.

Some routes fire 10+ point motors for the route. At THAT POINT I would occasionally get the PowerCab to trip/overload.

When I created 3 major "routes" to reset all points at startup via JMRI - it always shutdown the PowerCab

That's when I added a booster.

 

Therefore, a small layout, no points, no sound etc., should see you quite happily run your layout with the out-of-the-box PowerCab.

[reggie]

I've just read on another thread the the NCE Powercab doesn't  have a circuit breaker in the event of a short and fries decoders??? Is this right? i thought all systems cut the power in the event of a short circuit? Even my old dynamis cuts power if a short occurs.

 

If this is correct I think the NCE is out for me...

[SRman]

It is correct: the U.S. power supply does the circuit-breaking for the unit, but Australian and U.K. ones probably don't. It is a better idea to incorporate an overload trip or current-limiting device in the lines feeding the tracks. While this adds a little cost to the base unit cost, such things are not expensive anyway.

An earlier solution I used was to put a very cheap light unit intended for trailers in the circuit. If there was an overload, the light took the current and lit up, leaving the tracks and locomotives/decoders protected from the high current. The cost of the trailer tail lights at the time was around $AUS4 (approximately £GB2) each. I think they are dearer now, but still not expensive.

My present solution is to have 3 amp pop-out circuit breakers bought of eBay, and again not expensively. I use one circuit-breaker per track circuit. That means that any short on any part of the track circuit trips that entire line but leaves the other one(s) running - I presently have two tracks (inner and outer circuits) but this will be expanding to four tracks soon (upper and lower levels with double track on each).

I use an NCE 5 amp Power Pro system, expanded from my original single Power Cab, originally bought back in about 2005. I replaced the power supply with a laptop power supply with a 16V AC 5 amp output. Laptop power supplies are stabilised and provide a bit of capacitance to smooth out any fluctuations, so make very acceptable supplies for our purposes; they can be bought cheaply online too. Just be careful to choose those with suitable voltages and amperages - 2.2 amps is the safe limit for a Power Cab, although they do have a bit of leeway.

Using the ammeter built in to the Power Cab, I have checked power consumption on a display layout at an exhibition, with six sound locomotives turned on (including some Heljan ones) and two under load, and the power consumption didn't go over 0.8 amps. Modern locomotives (including Heljan ones) really are quite efficient. Double-heading may tax the power a little more.

As others have said, try handling each system before buying, and look at the future expansion options. There is no redundancy with developing the Power Cab into a larger system later. I can't speak for the Prodigy system as I have no experience with that at all. 

[Izzy]

As far as I am aware, all Prodigy handsets, Express, PA2, wireless PA2, can be used with either an Express or PA2 command station. The differences are the capabilities each has, the Express not being able to control accessories etc, and it's base station more limited with power output (1.6amp v 3.5amp) and connection sockets in comparison to a PA2. Only one base station can of course be used with a layout, but as many handsets as you want, or can afford.........

 

Please be aware that they do have built-in circuit protection, which is very fast acting - well the latest firmware versions are - and can cause conflicts when using other circuit breakers to make power districts. I have detailed this in other threads, but trying to use a PSX-1 with mine wrecked the base station, and it eventually proved they were incompatible, two similar circuits 'fighting' each other because they are connected in series.

 

Discovering the NCE Powercabs don't have any circuit protection (can't believe that) probably accounts for why users of this system don't have any issues with using multiple c/b's and power districts. Perhaps something else to consider, perhaps not, since you can split a layout into districts (sections) without c/b's just as you would for DC. Just depends what you want/need.

 

In the long term a PA2 system @3.5amp would seem to offer a measure of 'overhead' with regard to power output, and perhaps save the cost of having to add a power booster to a Powercab at a later stage, as you might also with an Express.

 

Izzy

[traction]

I have the original US 2 pin power supply with my PowerCab and that does handle any short circuits.

 

The issue you may have in trying one of the circuit breakers is they are not designed to work with these low power "starter sets"

Most of them do say on the instructions not to be used with these low 1-1.5amp starter sets.

 

NCE brought out a circuit breaker CP6 which has 6 lamps on it, the feed from the controller goes into one side and you then have 6 outputs, if a short happens in one of those outputs the lamp will light up.

The lamps as supplied give 1amp per section and it does work very well I managed to find some different wattage lamps on Ebay, to increase the current a little.

 

 

You could use different wattage festoon lamps or link a couple together.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

Edited January 14, 2017 by traction

[Pete the Elaner]

I've just read on another thread the the NCE Powercab doesn't  have a circuit breaker in the event of a short and fries decoders??? Is this right? i thought all systems cut the power in the event of a short circuit? Even my old dynamis cuts power if a short occurs.

 

If this is correct I think the NCE is out for me...

No, that is wrong. It reboots itself when a short is detected. I have seen mine do it.

This is why many people refer to "wiring a point for DCC". With DC, you get a brief spark & the train continues on its way. With DCC, the command station (or in the case of PowerCab, the combined unit) stops the entire layout.

 

You can break your layout down into separate power sub-districts each protected by their own circuit breaker. You don't have to do this straight away; you can wire the layout for it & connect the sub-districts together until such time (if ever) you want to split them. A proper circuit breaker reacts more quickly than the command station so only the affected power sub-district is shut down.

Splitting into sub-districts makes it easier to find wiring faults.

[Torper]

I don't understand this bit about the PowerCab frying decoders if there is a short.  I have a Powercab.  I also experience quite a lot of shorts, eg derailments, trying out new built loco, testing, and so on. All the PowerCab does is shut down and then reboot.  No damage to it, no damage to the decoders.  None at all, ever.  I do use the power supply unit that came with the PowerCab.

 

DT

[Ian Abel]

I've just read on another thread the the NCE Powercab doesn't  have a circuit breaker in the event of a short and fries decoders??? Is this right? i thought all systems cut the power in the event of a short circuit? Even my old dynamis cuts power if a short occurs.

 

If this is correct I think the NCE is out for me...

Totally incorrect/cobblers.

 

As stated by others, when the PowerCab goes over it's designed power output it shuts down and restarts.

Seen this happen, and you can ALSO TEST IT if you want with the "standard short the rails with a coin" test. The PowerCab will shut-off and restart. If you don't clear the short it'll just keep doing that.

I had EXACTLY that situation when an errant point motor actuator wire managed to find its way onto the tracks a while back. Was a hell of a pain finding it, but the PowerCab simply would NOT restart and stay running/providing power, until the short was cleared. All my 25+ locos were obviously ON the layout, and not a one of them was hurt/affected/fried!!!

 

In Programming Track mode when programming locos it will also/even display a "SHORT DETECTED" message if there's an issue with a decoder wrongly wired, protecting the newly installed decoder.

 

 

Also, as noted above in my description of my installation, that'll also happen without a "short" if you try running too much on the system, it shuts down and tries to restart, that's when it's time to invest in the booster/upgrade

Edited January 14, 2017 by Ian Abel

[Ian Abel]

I have the original US 2 pin power supply with my PowerCab and that does handle any short circuits.

 

The issue you may have in trying one of the circuit breakers is they are not designed to work with these low power "starter sets"

Most of them do say on the instructions not to be used with these low 1-1.5amp starter sets.

 

NCE brought out a circuit breaker CP6 which has 6 lamps on it, the feed from the controller goes into one side and you then have 6 outputs, if a short happens in one of those outputs the lamp will light up.

The lamps as supplied give 1amp per section and it does work very well I managed to find some different wattage lamps on Ebay, to increase the current a little.

 

CP6.jpg

 

You could use different wattage festoon lamps or link a couple together.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

This is what I use for my sub-districts, and NCE or eBay are both a source for 1.5 AMP alternate lamps, I just purchased the NCE provided pack from an NCE dealer/sop.

My layout runs quite happily with the higher rated lamps. There is a "chance" I'll be close to 1.5 amps on a single sub-district if I have a lot of lit carriages and sound locos on the same part of the layout, so I opted for the higher rated lamps.

Before I started moving all my point motors to a separate DCC bus I also saw the 1AMP lamps start to come on briefly, again when using JMRI and setting a large 10+ point route that was already drawing a high load from loco(s) and lighting.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Ian Abel

[Izzy]

 

Just to clarify the circuit breaker protection provided with the Prodigy, this kicks in as soon as a short occurs, and like other cb's retries the supply at regular intervals and re-sets if it has ceased. However, if the short continues to exist past a number of attempts (3-4 on average I think), then the cut-off becomes permanent/continuous until the fault is cleared. Once this is done the power is restored (it doesn't happen automatically) either by switching the command/base station off and on again, or by holding down the 'stop' button on a handset for a few seconds, which turns off power to the track from the command station, the same action then being used to switch the power back on. The first action of the second method can also be used before a fault is cleared, with the second half afterwards. Quite useful if you aren't near or have easy access to the command/base station.

 

I have always been wary of the bulb type circuit breakers. Are they really that since they don't seem to cut the current? Or just current limiting devices that have the same effect and afford the same level of protection as a supply cut? Excuse my ignorance of more than very basic electrics.

 

Izzy

[sharkman]

I upgraded my Powercab system to work with their SB5 smartbooster and secured a 5amp power supply from Ebay and have had no short circuit issues. It will trip out in normal usage but simply re-boots its self.

 

The only downside with powercab is that it will only store 6 locos in its stack, 3 if your using the basic system. The Prodigy stores 25 which is better but I think looses them when you switch it off maybe someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Also the Powercab is a lot easier to add extra cabs specially if you have friends that are using it. The downside is you have to go back to the basic system to alter CV's etc using an SB5 won't let you do that.

 

Its a difficult choice although looking back now if I had a simply one man operation layout I would go for the Prodigy. The powercab as I said seems better for larger layouts and can use up to 6 handsets.

 

By the way I've never "fried" chips with powercab!!!!

Edited January 15, 2017 by sharkman

[Izzy]

I'm afraid I can't really remember what my wired Prodigy handset does (just checked - it works the same), but the wireless one I now use retains the stack details however many times it's switched on/off. It does have a delete button to remove locos from the stack, which get automatically added as soon as they are entered into the handset. They only 'disappear' from the stack otherwise if more locos are added than the stack can store. A point to note is that a loco can only be stored and commanded with one handset at a time. They have to be deleted from one before another can select them. It's supposed to be able to handle up to 99 handsets.......

 

Izzy

Edited January 15, 2017 by Izzy

[Brian]

Received from NCE on Monday 2nd January 2017 re PowerCab protection and power supply.

 

The Power Cab has no internal regulation and relies on the Power Supply.

The 1.8 amp supply has been load tested reliably at the 2amp system rating.

Finding a reliable supplier of the correct Power Supplies for both the US and the UK is a big challenge for us.

 

Using ANY other Power supply not sold by NCE will void the warranty and possibly damage the Power Cab.

Do not under ANY circumstance use any power supply rated more than 3 amps!

 

For protection on the track output side we recommend the CP6 current limiter board. See attached  

(A PDF file with the CP6 details was attached)

[sharkman]

Received from NCE on Monday 2nd January 2017 re PowerCab protection and power supply.

 

The Power Cab has no internal regulation and relies on the Power Supply.

The 1.8 amp supply has been load tested reliably at the 2amp system rating.

Finding a reliable supplier of the correct Power Supplies for both the US and the UK is a big challenge for us.

 

Using ANY other Power supply not sold by NCE will void the warranty and possibly damage the Power Cab.

Do not under ANY circumstance use any power supply rated more than 3 amps!

 

For protection on the track output side we recommend the CP6 current limiter board. See attached  

(A PDF file with the CP6 details was attached)

We've done 8 shows with Power cab and during that period its not "fried" any chips or "cooked" any fish!

But what we have is a power supply that came with mine is a seMag 0624R EJ358703 which is about 5 years old I would think and is rated at 1.11A and input 100-240vAC so suitable for the US and UK markets just get one of those cheapie travel adapters from any electrical stores then it will work fine but make sure your present NCE power supply has the correct voltage input.

The power supply I use inconjuction with my smart booster is a Maplins regulated power supply and with a rated output voltage 13.8V DC 3amp continuos it was recommended by Bromsgrove Models who where importing NCE equipment.

Edited January 16, 2017 by sharkman

[Brian]

Coastal know more than NCE themselves?

 

PowerCab had no internal overload device according to NCE it relies on any overload device in the power supply. Hence the recommendation for the 1.8Amp output supply.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Brian

[sharkman]

Coastal know more than NCE themselves?

 

PowerCab had no internal overload device according to NCE it relies on any overload device in the power supply. Hence the recommendation for the 1.8Amp output supply.

I stand to be corrected and can see your point yes it does need an overload device!

[reggie]

Hi all

 

Just an update - I went to Doncaster Show yesterday, enjoyed the exhibition, and had a good look/play with NCE & Prodigy Advance, decided to go for the Prodigy, I like the control wheel, large recall function, yard mode etc, just think in the long run i will prefer it. Just need to save a bit over next week or two then will order...

 

Thanks for all your advice and help, much appreciated!

 

Reggie

[Pete the Elaner]

Glad to hear you were patient enough to try both out before buying.

[Sir TophamHatt]

Me too!

Although I just took the plunge and bought it; arrived yesterday.

 

I still have to set up the bus wires and droppers though.  I happen to have a Swallow HST coming, with Legomanbiffo sound so I can give it a real good test.

[Pete the Elaner]

Me too!

Although I just took the plunge and bought it; arrived yesterday.

 

I still have to set up the bus wires and droppers though.  I happen to have a Swallow HST coming, with Legomanbiffo sound so I can give it a real good test.

Swallow HST with Biff's sound. I have exactly the same. It sounds rather good on the layout & I have yet to re-position the speakers to give their best.

You sound like you are racing the arrival of a new item. This time last year, I was racing to get my layout live before my APT-E arrived. The APT was delivered 2 days before the layout was ready

[reggie]

So have finally got the Prodigy from Rails at a great price. Taking a little getting used to but really pleased so far. I like the control wheel and yard function very much.

 

Now I just have to remember the loco numbers or write them down, the one good thing about the Bachman was you could enter loco names too in the roster.

[David jones]

I have NCE power cab with SB5 booster and love it,just do not try to run these without a circuit breaker in case you get a short,it will blow the SB5, as I learned the hard way.hope this is helpful to someone.

[Eveannessant]

I know that this thread is way old by now, however for the benefit of others in the future that may be faced with this dilemma I will add my own experience of both.

 

Originally when first setting out on the DCC path I chose a Gaugemaster (GM) Podigy Advance squared (PA2) this is a rebadged MRC product. At first I was very happy with it, but after a short time the speed control knob wouldn't work properly, I eventually had 3 of these located around my layout plus I also had a wireless version too. All 3 wired versions had the problem with the speed control knob at some time or other. In the meantime my layout grew ever larger, and I purchased DCC Concepts alpha power and alpha box with a alpha central points control unit, and all the cross over conversion cables to enable running with PA2 system. I soon got tired of paying for posting back handhelds to GM, and requested they post out the defective part replacement (an encoder) which I could easily replace my self. They always refused to do this much to my annoyance, and although they would always repair or replace without charge, the fault would recur 8-9 months later. So I sold all of my GM PA2 stuff, I'd had enough of it!

 

Maybe GM & MRC have now replaced their awful encoders with more reliable versions in later years, maybe with the back lit version of their handheld??, but my expereince with them was for over 6 years.

 

I then purchased an NCE Power Cab and integrated it with the DCC Concepts alpha items, this is so very, very, much easier to do with NCE equipment, no converter cables needed. But I needed more hand held throttles etc., and soon upgraded to the full blown 5 amp Power Pro system, and have since added a Wi Trax WFD 30 card and a TCS UWT 100 Universal wifi throttle to my system as well another NCE Booster when I divided my layout into two power districts. I have never been happier than I am now with my NCE system. Oh and the very versatile PowerCab is used as another throttle or to program accessories and dcc equipped locos on a separate programming track.

 

I also noted soon after purchasing the PowerCab, that the encoder manufacturer, part number and where to purchase from is shown in the owners manual, I got mine from RS, they're pretty much "cheaper than chips". No I haven't had to replace one yet either, they're there just in case.

 

I'd also add that the DCC Concepts Alpha Boxes are now redundant for the time being because the Alpha Central unit just plugs into the NCE  command bus in exactly the same way as any other NCE piece of equipment does. 

 

The Alpha boxes are now going to be used as a booster, BUT to control separate DCC layout accessory buses.

 

Bottom line in my experience is this;

 

No matter if I hadn't had any problems with the GM throttles, I'd still have been be better off with the NCE equipment.

 

I should have purchased NCE when I started out with DCC.

 

Cheers,

 

Eve

Edited June 29, 2021 by Eveannessant

[Ron Ron Ron]

Did you know………

 

The NCE system is more than 26 years old……..

 

 

 

 

.

[F-UnitMad]

4 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Did you know………

 

The NCE system is more than 26 years old……..

 

 

 

 

.

That's ok. So am I.....