Kings Moreton, (1980's BR)

[sjrixon]

And Kevin I guess the ease of moving oil around and the fact they would need to run power out to them. Sounds like a lot of work!

[Andrew P]

Andrew P, on 08 Aug 2017 - 11:27, said:

Hi Mike, Sorry to trouble you, but would a WR Fixed Distant Signal still have a Cable to the Signal Box please?


Cheers,

Andy.

 Morning Andy,

 

Simple answer is 'yes' as it would probably have a lamp repeater so it could also have cupboard for batteries nearby.  Don't forget to that Western Fixed Distants did not have a spectacle plate - the arm was bolted to a bracket on the post and the lamp was simply a lamp casing (as would normally have been hidden behind the spectacle plate.  As seen in the pic below -

 

 

cheers, Mike

Mike.
The Stationmaster

Morning Mike, Sorry to be a pain, but if the Signal was FIXED and bolted to the Post, what would the cable to the Box be for?

 

The lamp repeater Andy.  That told the Signalman if the lamp was alight or out when it was out of sight.  Usually a small cable and wired into the nearest telegraph pole thence over ordinary copper wires - 

 

And a  pretty thin cable of course - I reckon in 4mm scale good old fashioned 5 amp fuse wire would be about the right size - painted black of course.

 

cheers,  Mike

Mike.
The Stationmaster

Obviously a copy from the PM

Edited August 28, 2017 by Andrew P

[Ray H]

I've no idea how lamp repeaters detected that the lamp was pout but the idea was that they provided an indication to the signalman when the lamp had gone/blown out so that the signalman could take the necessary action.

 

Many signals could be seen by the signalman, either from the front or from back - which is signals were provided with back blinders* - but it is highly unlikely that the signalman could see the back of his own distant signals (although he may have been able to see the distant signals of adjacent boxes - when I'd guess repeaters weren't always necessary as the signalman could rely on his neighbour advising him that the lamp was out).

 

* - The (signal) lamp "shone" in both directions for this very purpose as it was vital for the signalman to know if the signal was at danger. The back blinder was positioned such that the lamp could be seen from the rear when the signal was at danger but couldn't be seen when the signal was cleared (when it was less critical for the lamp to still be alight). The back blinder was connected to the signal arm and the ability to see the signal light from behind also confirmed to the signalman that the signal arm had correctly returned to danger and the lamp was showing red to any approaching train.

 

I doubt whether the "cable" for the repeater would have been run along and just above any (signal operating) wire runs because those wire runs were likely to have ended a long way before the (fixed) distant signal and a single cable just above the ground would have been more prone to damage etc if so placed.

 

They may have been affixed to the pole route and gone overhead or they may have gone in the cable trough if that existed.

 

I'd suggest that you can probably ignore any cable runs for lamp repeaters unless you plan to wire your (telegraph) pole route as well!

Edited August 28, 2017 by Ray H

[St Enodoc]

I've no idea how lamp repeaters detected that the lamp was pout but the idea was that they provided an indication to the signalman when the lamp had gone/blown out so that the signalman could take the necessary action.

 

Many signals could be seen by the signalman, either from the front or from back - which is signals were provided with back blinders* - but it is highly unlikely that the signalman could see the back of his own distant signals (although he may have been able to see the distant signals of adjacent boxes - when I'd guess repeaters weren't always necessary as the signalman could rely on his neighbour advising him that the lamp was out).

 

* - The (signal) lamp "shone" in both directions for this very purpose as it was vital for the signalman to know if the signal was at danger. The back blinder was positioned such that the lamp could be seen from the rear when the signal was at danger but couldn't be seen when the signal was cleared (when it was less critical for the lamp to still be alight). The back blinder was connected to the signal arm and the ability to see the signal light from behind also confirmed to the signalman that the signal arm had correctly returned to danger and the lamp was showing red to any approaching train.

 

I doubt whether the "cable" for the repeater would have been run along and just above any (signal operating) wire runs because those wire runs were likely to have ended a long way before the (fixed) distant signal and a single cable just above the ground would have been more prone to damage etc if so placed.

 

They may have been affixed to the pole route and gone overhead or they may have gone in the cable trough if that existed.

 

I'd suggest that you can probably ignore any cable runs for lamp repeaters unless you plan to wire your (telegraph) pole route as well!

Bi-metallic strip switches, activated by the heat of the oil lamp.

[Andrew P]

I've no idea how lamp repeaters detected that the lamp was pout but the idea was that they provided an indication to the signalman when the lamp had gone/blown out so that the signalman could take the necessary action.

 

Many signals could be seen by the signalman, either from the front or from back - which is signals were provided with back blinders* - but it is highly unlikely that the signalman could see the back of his own distant signals (although he may have been able to see the distant signals of adjacent boxes - when I'd guess repeaters weren't always necessary as the signalman could rely on his neighbour advising him that the lamp was out).

 

* - The (signal) lamp "shone" in both directions for this very purpose as it was vital for the signalman to know if the signal was at danger. The back blinder was positioned such that the lamp could be seen from the rear when the signal was at danger but couldn't be seen when the signal was cleared (when it was less critical for the lamp to still be alight). The back blinder was connected to the signal arm and the ability to see the signal light from behind also confirmed to the signalman that the signal arm had correctly returned to danger and the lamp was showing red to any approaching train.

 

I doubt whether the "cable" for the repeater would have been run along and just above any (signal operating) wire runs because those wire runs were likely to have ended a long way before the (fixed) distant signal and a single cable just above the ground would have been more prone to damage etc if so placed.

 

They may have been affixed to the pole route and gone overhead or they may have gone in the cable trough if that existed.

 

I'd suggest that you can probably ignore any cable runs for lamp repeaters unless you plan to wire your (telegraph) pole route as well!

Thanks Ray, some really useful info there, much appreciated.

[Andrew P]

Bi-metallic strip switches, activated by the heat of the oil lamp.

So simple, and makes some real sense now, thanks for that mate.

[5BarVT]

Bi-metallic strip switches, activated by the heat of the oil lamp.

Called a pyrometer in the signalling trade. Sits in the 'chimney' bit at the top of the lamp case.

[5BarVT]

I doubt whether the "cable" for the repeater would have been run along and just above any (signal operating) wire runs because those wire runs were likely to have ended a long way before the (fixed) distant signal and a single cable just above the ground would have been more prone to damage etc if so placed.

 

They may have been affixed to the pole route and gone overhead or they may have gone in the cable trough if that existed.

 

I'd suggest that you can probably ignore any cable runs for lamp repeaters unless you plan to wire your (telegraph) pole route as well!

It would be a 2 core cable (black) down the post from the lamp case back to an equipment case by the signal. A long life 1.5V battery is all that would be provided (DS1 cell about 4" square 10" tall, or DS3 2" sq 6" tall) so a very small cupboard. Earth return back to the box, so only one wire on the pole route for that circuit. If the route had been cabled there would also be a larger cupboard for the cable terminations near the distant so that the lamp repeat circuit could be picked up there. WR tended to bury their cable routes in the 60s, so probably no troughing visible.

Paul.

Edited August 28, 2017 by 5BarVT

[Andrew P]

Called a pyrometer in the signalling trade. Sits in the 'chimney' bit at the top of the lamp case.

 

It would be a 2 core cable (black) down the post from the lamp case back to an equipment case by the signal. A long life 1.5V battery is all that would be provided (DS1 cell about 4" square 10" tall, or DS3 2" sq 6" tall) so a very small cupboard. Earth return back to the box, so only one wire on the pole route for that circuit. If the route had been cabled there would also be a larger cupboard for the cable terminations near the distant so that the lamp repeat circuit could be picked up there. WR tended to bury their cable routes in the 60s, so probably no troughing visible.

Paul.

Great info again Paul, many thanks.

[Bogie]

So when will your fully functioning model of such a signal be completed?

[Andrew P]

So when will your fully functioning model of such a signal be completed?

Morning Bogie, The Fixed Distant has been modified and is installed as in the pics above, and the Lamp has been painted in the appropriate colours, I just need to do the cabling.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Andrew P

[coachmann]

Tuesday morning digression :  As unofficial assistant to Dick the Lamp here in welsh Wales, I often photographed him at the top of posts and shot passing trains as well of course. There was quite a bit of swaying about up there. His oil lamps were precious and he took great care of them, so he was not best pleased when he eventually discovered 'his' Up distant bracket was toppled one Sunday while the lamps were still in situ. What made it worse the following morning was the S&T lads thought it was hugely funny to let him go traipsing off a mile up the track without telling him it was on the ground. I wonder if there is as much humour about in work today....

[Andrew P]

Tuesday morning digression :  As unofficial assistant to Dick the Lamp here in welsh Wales, I often photographed him at the top of posts and shot passing trains as well of course. There was quite a bit of swaying about up there. His oil lamps were precious and he took great care of them, so he was not best pleased when he eventually discovered 'his' Up distant bracket was toppled one Sunday while the lamps were still in situ. What made it worse the following morning was the S&T lads thought it was hugely funny to let him go traipsing off a mile up the track without telling him it was on the ground. I wonder if there is as much humour about in work today....

He'd probably put in a compensation claim in today's world Larry.

[Andrew P]

So Point Rodding Round 2 this morning, it wasn't so easy as this bit was already ballasted.

 

 

[coachmann]

Point rodding is one of those essentials that is so overlooked. I ain't fitted it either!  But I think your lineside fencing is back to front Andy.........ducking for cover here! Flat slats were nails to the posts and Ratio shamferred the backs to make the slats look prototypical and slim.

[Andrew P]

And also this morning the first of the Telegraph Poles went in.

 

 

[Andrew P]

Point rodding is one of those essentials that is so overlooked. I ain't fitted it either!  But I think your lineside fencing is back to front Andy.........ducking for cover here! Flat slats were nails to the posts and Ratio shamferred the backs to make the slats look prototypical and slim.

BL**DY AMATEURS, you send a Boy out to do a Mans job and he k*CKS it up.       to late now mate, its glued in and to the backscene in places so would ruin the Trees and backscene if I tried to remove it now.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Andrew P

[KNP]

And also this morning the first of the Telegraph Poles went in.

Telegraph Poles 1 (1).JPG

 

Telegraph Poles 1 (2).JPG

 

Telegraph Poles 1 (3).JPG

 

All these little bits bring the layout to life, plus the embankment is really standing out now since you re-did it and nicely catching shadows to give an uneven appearance.

[coachmann]

I laughed when I saw your post and where you keep the telephone. Her Indoors couldn't find ours yet it was where one would expect to find a phone.............On a railway bridge! 

Edited August 29, 2017 by coachmann

[Andrew P]

All these little bits bring the layout to life, plus the embankment is really standing out now since you re-did it and nicely catching shadows to give an uneven appearance.

Thanks Kevin, I may go back ONE DAY and re look at the small embankment opposite the Pub and remove some of the undergrowth along there as well, that now looks really busy as well.

[Andrew P]

I laughed when I saw your 1777 post and where you keep the telephone. Her Indoors couldn't find ours yet it was where one would expect to find a phone.............On a railway bridge! 

From Post #1711

 

Most Modellers put Bus's on Bridges, not me.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Andrew P

[The Stationmaster]

It's a fixed Distant, but Mike says it need a Cable to the Box so the Bobby can put the Lamp on. That's a job for another day.

 

It's correct (lot of Andy effort put into ensuring that) but it would seem to be in the wrong place (especially as there is point rodding passing it)?   Might need to be moved a good way further from the signalbox Andy?

 

As far as lamps are concerned most places (and definitely the Western) used what were known as '7 day lamps' which meant that when they were properly cleaned and trimmed they would burn for 7 days although in fact you could reckon getting 8 days if you were lucky and that allowed for them being dealt with at any time during the seventh day.  A good Lampie (Lampman) was worth his weight in gold; after a very bad experience one Christmas, which saw me up about 30 feet on a signal gantry in pouring rain on Boxing Night replacing lamps which had gone out we duly sacked the Lampie - a useless p*llock and looked for a  new one.  We were very lucky as we found a chap in his 50s, no railway experience but he liked (and dealt in) antiques and was looking for a  steady income in a job that still allowed time for his business so he used his car to get about (at his expense) and he really liked dealing with oil lamps - to the extent that he overhauled our entire stock and then started plaguing me for spare parts.  By then Reading only manufactured in batches and were out of stock so we found a local tinsmith who made some for us plus Fred, the Lampie, was buying new glasses for them out of his own money.  Due to him I reckon that in the second part of the '70s we had some of the best maintained lamps on the Western - job many folk didn't really appreciate as it involved a considerable need for care and a bit of skill to do it properly (and the pay was absymal).  

 

Incidentally the bit you see on the signal post is only the lamp case, the lamp itself slots inside that so what a good lampie does is have a stock of lamps which are rotated and a lamp is taken to the signal ready trimmed, filled and lit and simply replaces the one which is taken out.

[KNP]

Thanks Kevin, I may go back ONE DAY and re look at the small embankment opposite the Pub and remove some of the undergrowth along there as well, that now looks really busy as well.

 

As the slope is the same what about adding some of the main embankment grass over the exposed areas of the green grass slowly fading it out as it decreases as you near the canal bridge?

[BWsTrains]

Good job the modelling is outstanding.

 

Fences back to front, rampant monster phones lurking and errant apostrophes running wild all over the place. What next??

 

[5BarVT]

It's correct (lot of Andy effort put into ensuring that) but it would seem to be in the wrong place (especially as there is point rodding passing it)?   Might need to be moved a good way further from the signalbox Andy?

Mike,

Whose distant is it anyway? (I don't mean in a Rule 1 sense, but that applies too.). I assumed it was the distant for the box at the station junction (other end of the loop), not the box in the photo. Unusual, but not impossible for it to be the other side of the box in rear (you know what us S&T are like). As a back story, how about an incident where a (foreign?) freight overran the home signal and the joint inquiry recommended moving the distant further out. :-)

Paul.