drmditch Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 My railway (that was and is to be) is based on the late LNER. Obviously however, the freight stock needs to include a number of vehicles built by other railways. Of recent years, as far as I can see LNER modellers have been better served by RTR production than those avowing the LMS, at least as far as good stock is concerned. In the kit marketplace, I have as yet discovered no version of an LMS fitted van. I am aware of the old Mainline moulding inherited by Bachmann, and, since I have several of these accumulated in past years, have attempted to rebuild some of them to a better standard. I have not worked from any detail drawings, but only from the diagrams and photographs in Mr Essery's 'LMS Wagons Volume 1' The height needs to be increased, including providing additional corrugations to the steel ends, the diagonal external strapping removed, the vertical channel added, and various details created. The underframe is theParkside PA16 kit (from kit PC41) which gives the J Hanger suspension, clasp brakes and the correct length brake lever. Of late, for my fitted vehicles, I have been making a fuller representation of the underframe brake gear. However, I am at present working on a Ratio kit (No.572) with the same Parkside fitted underframe. This has a higher ride height than my conversion, and the roof profile is considerably more curved. I am endeavouring to model either a Diagram 1897 or 1891 vehicle. From the Essery book, I had not thought that the roof profile of the Mainline/Bachmann models was that incorrect, but it now appears that it might be far to 'flat'. I would be grateful for advice as to:- - Which of the roof profiles is nearer correct ? - Are the axlebox covers provided in the Parkside kit correct? - What other methods are possible for modelling LMS Vans ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 My railway (that was and is to be) is based on the late LNER. Obviously however, the freight stock needs to include a number of vehicles built by other railways. Of recent years, as far as I can see LNER modellers have been better served by RTR production than those avowing the LMS, at least as far as good stock is concerned. In the kit marketplace, I have as yet discovered no version of an LMS fitted van. I am aware of the old Mainline moulding inherited by Bachmann, and, since I have several of these accumulated in past years, have attempted to rebuild some of them to a better standard. I have not worked from any detail drawings, but only from the diagrams and photographs in Mr Essery's 'LMS Wagons Volume 1' The height needs to be increased, including providing additional corrugations to the steel ends, the diagonal external strapping removed, the vertical channel added, and various details created. The underframe is theParkside PA16 kit (from kit PC41) which gives the J Hanger suspension, clasp brakes and the correct length brake lever. Of late, for my fitted vehicles, I have been making a fuller representation of the underframe brake gear. Post_26.JPG Post_27.JPG However, I am at present working on a Ratio kit (No.572) with the same Parkside fitted underframe. This has a higher ride height than my conversion, and the roof profile is considerably more curved. I am endeavouring to model either a Diagram 1897 or 1891 vehicle. From the Essery book, I had not thought that the roof profile of the Mainline/Bachmann models was that incorrect, but it now appears that it might be far to 'flat'. I would be grateful for advice as to:- - Which of the roof profiles is nearer correct ? - Are the axlebox covers provided in the Parkside kit correct? - What other methods are possible for modelling LMS Vans ? Cambrian kits? http://www.cambrianmodels.co.uk/lmswagons.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 IMO, the Ratio and Airfix/Dapol vans would seem to be a better starting point although the Airfix chassis is only fit for bin fodder. The body of the Mainline/Bachmann offering is hopeless but has a better chassis, albeit shoe suspension and four brake blocks so only OK for unfitted or BR retro-fitted versions. If you can find any ABS kits, I think some of those were fitted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmditch Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 Cambrian kits? http://www.cambrianmodels.co.uk/lmswagons.html Thank you. I may well try some of these in future. None of them are fitted however, so for fitted versions I would have to use the same Parkside underframe, and I am a little worried about the axlebox covers. I note that the Mainline/Bachmann roof curvature is not that different to the Midland derived Dia 1661 Cattle Wagon recently covered by Parkside. Are the Dia 1891 and 1897 Vans from a different design history? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 IMO, the Ratio and Airfix/Dapol vans would seem to be a better starting point ... These have been my standbys too, for the body of this most essential vehicle. At what I think was £1.25 a throw for the body only from Dapol when I last purchased a bulk quantity, a painless starting point to a right looking van, rather than attempting to rebuild the Bachmann oddity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted February 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2017 Interesting. I recently picked up a s/h Dapol one, painted in a light grey LNER livery which was clearly not correct for it. It's chassis is fairly well detailed, and the brake blocks align with the wheels, but it does not match the chassis of any LMS van I have seen a photo of or remember, the brake handle being longer and the rodding being different. It will have a replacement chassis one day but for now I'm going to live with it. As if has 4 brake shoes and a representation of a vacuum cylinder, and my period is post-nationalisation to 1963, I have repainted and lettered it in BR bauxite, so have apparently got it almost right almost by accident. Of course, it may not be on it's original chassis as I do not know it's history or provenance; it was cheap, though! It is, for all it's uncertainties, a much better model than the Mainline one with sliding doors about a scale foot thick that I once owned... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted February 18, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 18, 2017 One significant difference between the Ratio and Airfix/Dapol van bodies is that the vertical stanchions on the sides of the latter represent inverted 'U' channel section which as far as I recall was only used on vans built to this design by BR (or perhaps some very late built LMS vans; unable to check books at the moment); the Ratio kit shows the form of side stanchion channel section which is correct for the vast majority of LMS-built vans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmditch Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 These have been my standbys too, for the body of this most essential vehicle. At what I think was £1.25 a throw for the body only from Dapol when I last purchased a bulk quantity, a painless starting point to a right looking van, rather than attempting to rebuild the Bachmann oddity. One significant difference between the Ratio and Airfix/Dapol van bodies is that the vertical stanchions on the sides of the latter represent inverted 'U' channel section which as far as I recall was only used on vans built to this design by BR (or perhaps some very late built LMS vans; unable to check books at the moment); the Ratio kit shows the form of side stanchion channel section which is correct for the vast majority of LMS-built vans. Thank you both. I have considered a Dapol conversion in the past, but have always rejected the idea of spending £10 or £12 and then hacking up the purchase! A cheap body however would be a different thing! I have used evergreen channel section on my conversion (see above). I'm a little cross with myself that it now looks out of scale compared with the Ratio moulding. I will complete the Ratio van (this one is going to be in bauxite) and then further hack about my completed 'flat roof' vehicle. I think I can see a way to reclaim the work I have already done. It's all my fault. It was an outstanding project from before my great house-move, and I discovered it and thought it would be better completed! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted February 18, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 18, 2017 If you DO fancy hacking a Dapol one, you can usually get the bodies unpainted for a very small amount of money: http://www.hattons.co.uk/50888/Dapol_B019_Unpainted_wagon_body_LMS_VB3_vent_van/StockDetail.aspx then source underframes from Parkside or elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmditch Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 If you DO fancy hacking a Dapol one, you can usually get the bodies unpainted for a very small amount of money: http://www.hattons.co.uk/50888/Dapol_B019_Unpainted_wagon_body_LMS_VB3_vent_van/StockDetail.aspx then source underframes from Parkside or elsewhere. Thank you. I may well do just that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Turpin Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 LNER modellers have been better served by RTR production than those avowing the LMS, at least as far as good stock is concerned. You are no doubt aware that this is only a very recent phenomenon regarding the LNER ones. However, it is highly likely that the situation may soon change regarding the large gap in the RTR market left by the absence of these LMS freight vehicles you mention because surely it is a void that beckons to be filled. But then again, I may be mistaken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Slaters wagon kits? E-bay. Gordon A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Got to admit that being of the 'impressionist' school I wouldn't worry about the odd van with a slightly different roof curve or whatever. Sighting along a typical circa 1960 BR van train, you'd scarcely see two profiles absolutely alike adjacent each other. It's for the BR(ER) fast freights that this group of LMS design origin vans are so vital on my operation. Especially on those services operating to and from Scotland, the sliding door vans were essential, because many of the rail served user's premises could not readily receive cupboard door vans. As a result to the end of steam operations the majority of vans on these services were the LMS and LNER's sliding door types, giving the trains their distinctive appearance. For this period the detail differences between the Ratio and ex-Airfix GMR bodies are a real asset of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted February 18, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 18, 2017 Slaters wagon kits? E-bay. Gordon A Slater's LMS wagon kits were all Midland prototypes, which perhaps isn't what the OP is trying to achieve. On the same theme, MAJ and Colin Ashby did some nice L&Y prototypes. Sadly those moulds seem to have gone too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 You could always disguise the roof problems by putting a wagon sheet over it.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 You are no doubt aware that this is only a very recent phenomenon regarding the LNER ones. However, it is highly likely that the situation may soon change regarding the large gap in the RTR market left by the absence of these LMS freight vehicles you mention because surely it is a void that beckons to be filled. But then again, I may be mistaken. Well, I was surprised that firstly Bachmann gave us such a selection of the LNER design vans (and the opens come to that) and then didn't briskly follow on with a set of the LMS equivalents. I asked myself, Is this the legacy of the Essery, Warburton et al school of 'pipes in chaps, and let's scratchbuild LMS standard wagon designs by the hundred'? Do they fear that all the potential LMS/LMR modeller customers are such thoroughly practical types all fired up with do-it-yourself that they would make very small sales because most of the demand has been taken up by DIY activity? I really don't know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 If you're up to building an etched kit then Lochgorm do a LMS D2079/LNER CovB as etchings. You need to source some parts such as castings separately. http://www.lochgormkits.co.uk/html/wagons.html http://www.lochgormkits.co.uk/html/beginner_s_fret.html Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Turpin Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Well, I was surprised that firstly Bachmann gave us such a selection of the LNER design vans (and the opens come to that) and then didn't briskly follow on with a set of the LMS equivalents. I asked myself, Is this the legacy of the Essery, Warburton et al school of 'pipes in chaps, and let's scratchbuild LMS standard wagon designs by the hundred'? Do they fear that all the potential LMS/LMR modeller customers are such thoroughly practical types all fired up with do-it-yourself that they would make very small sales because most of the demand has been taken up by DIY activity? I really don't know. Bachmann's announcement philosophy does seem to have moved away from, 'announce now and then supply the models in umpteen years time', to a more sort of 'design and develop the tooling first, and then only announce once the first samples are ready to show, and so be able to supply the models in about a year's time', (more like how Hornby do it) so with respect to LMS standards freight stock, and their new approach, an announcement should be imminent given Bachmann's LMScentric outlook lately, the glaring gap in the market, and just how much these are seriously wanted by so many of us!!! I doubt, 34C, that anyone is scratchbuilding LMS wagons in quantity these days, let alone smoking a pipe full of St Bruno and belching clouds of smoke while doing it. At least with LNER wagons, we have a decent source of kits to draw upon in the Parkside range; I can think of nothing remotely similar in LMS terms. Maybe Tatlow is to blame with his oh so wonderful and seminal works on the subject, making LNER wagons so much more known about these days. Ironic, that in his preface, he states that he undertook his research, as an LMS modeller with a need for LNER wagons, because there was so little information available at the time! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmditch Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 You are no doubt aware that this is only a very recent phenomenon regarding the LNER ones. However, it is highly likely that the situation may soon change regarding the large gap in the RTR market left by the absence of these LMS freight vehicles you mention because surely it is a void that beckons to be filled. But then again, I may be mistaken. Yes. I should say that most of my LNER freight stock, especially the vans are kit built, and most of those from Parkside. That is why I am still surprised that there are no RTR or straightforward kit options for the LMS steel-ended fitted vans. I can understand the temptation for models of the same in BR condition with external diagonal strapping but surely there must be a market for pre-nationalisation vehicles. After all, fitted vans were common-user from 1936. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmditch Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 Bachmann's announcement philosophy does seem to have moved away from, 'announce now and then supply the models in umpteen years time', to a more sort of 'design and develop the tooling first, and then only announce once the first samples are ready to show, and so be able to supply the models in about a year's time', (more like how Hornby do it) so with respect to LMS standards freight stock, and their new approach, an announcement should be imminent given Bachmann's LMScentric outlook lately, the glaring gap in the market, and just how much these are seriously wanted by so many of us!!! I doubt, 34C, that anyone is scratchbuilding LMS wagons in quantity these days, let alone smoking a pipe full of St Bruno and belching clouds of smoke while doing it. At least with LNER wagons, we have a decent source of kits to draw upon in the Parkside range; I can think of nothing remotely similar in LMS terms. Maybe Tatlow is to blame with his oh so wonderful and seminal works on the subject, making LNER wagons so much more known about these days. Ironic, that in his preface, he states that he undertook his research, as an LMS modeller with a need for LNER wagons, because there was so little information available at the time! I entirely agree about Mr Tatlow's works. What with with some kits and some scratchbuilding it is rather fun working through the five volumes. I never have found Volume 2 of Mr Essery's 'LMS Wagons'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Turpin Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 We could do with someone of Peter Tatlow's calibre to do for the LMS what Peter Tatlow has done for the LNER, and in a similar format, ie not just the LMS standard wagons, but a detailed cataloging of LMS constituent company wagons, and then the standard designs. Alas, perhaps a pipe dream for those soldering iron wielding, scratchbuilding St Bruno aficionados referred to earlier. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 May sound a bit silly but if you want to build fitted LMS vans you could do no better than first source a January 1975 Model Railway Constructor. Ian Nuttall and A N Other (Apologies I forget the co author) penned an article on carrying out simple to complex alterations to the Ratio LMS van to end up with a number of different variations. Even though it was published decades ago it is still relevant today. As others have said, the Airfix/GMR/Dapol body tarts up well. Specially with Rumney and LMS models bits clagged on. This one started out as a GMR body bought for 50p from my local toy fair. Be careful if buying GMR bodies though. There was an early version whose body mould was atrocious. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 We could do with someone of Peter Tatlow's calibre to do for the LMS what Peter Tatlow has done for the LNER, and in a similar format, ie not just the LMS standard wagons, but a detailed cataloging of LMS constituent company wagons, and then the standard designs. Alas, perhaps a pipe dream for those soldering iron wielding, scratchbuilding St Bruno aficionados referred to earlier. I thought most of it has already been done or is in the process of being done? http://www.titfield.co.uk/Wild-Swan/Rolling-Stock.htm Most of the Midland and LMS material that has come to light since the OPC Essery books is in the LMS Journal, Midland Record and the Official Drawings books. They have already done the L&Y, NSR and nearly completed the LNWR series. The Scottish companies are also well covered with only the GSWR missing. The S&DJR is in the OPC Southern Wagons series. It's only really minor railways that are missing. http://lightmoor.co.uk/books/caledonian-railway-wagons-and-non-passenger-coaching-stock/L9747 http://www.crecy.co.uk/highland-railway-carriages-and-wagons Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted February 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 18, 2017 ................................. although the Airfix chassis is only fit for bin fodder. The body of the Mainline/Bachmann offering is hopeless .................. My solution for a couple was to use the Bachmann chassis with Airfix body for a reasonable representation (at normal viewing distance) retro fitted four shoe brakes and use the Airfix chassis with a Bachmann body on the Isle of Sodor Railway for the grandchildren to run without worrying about the mishaps Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandwich station Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 If you DO fancy hacking a Dapol one, you can usually get the bodies unpainted for a very small amount of money: http://www.hattons.co.uk/50888/Dapol_B019_Unpainted_wagon_body_LMS_VB3_vent_van/StockDetail.aspx then source underframes from Parkside or elsewhere. You can also buy the unpainted bodies direct from Dapol as well for for a little more at £1.61 each http://Dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=177_60_85_125 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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