Pushing wagons on non-passenger branch lines

[Stubby47]

Hi all,

 

I've posted this in my Tinner's Forge thread as well, but thought it might get more exposure here :

 

How far (miles ?) were locos allowed to push wagons along an industrial branch line ?

Could any wagons be pushed, or did they have to be preceded by a brake van, or be fitted without a brake van - could un-braked wagons be pushed ?

 

I know the BWTs did some strange things through Hellandbridge, just wondering if this was more widespread if the branch had no run-round facilities at the end.

 

TIA

[Mark Saunders]

As permitted by Sectional Appendix instructions if worked by BR train crew or Company instructions if worked by Owners locomotives and Crew!

 

Provision of Brake Van at front would depend on gradient?

 

Mark Saunders

[TomJ]

Two examples I can think of in cornwall were the Ponts Mill trip from St Blazey and the run from Goonbarrow Junction to Carbis Wharf. Neither had a run round so trains were propelled there are pulled back. The first was usually a 08 and all the photos I've seen include a brake van. Is this because a secondman couldn't travel in the cab with the driver? I've seen pics of between 2 and 6 wagons. Most of this run wasn't a freight only line but on the passenger Par to Newquay line.

The trip to Carbis Wharf was, in the 80s, a 37 job and I've never seen a picture with a brake van. Usually just a single clay tiger wagon.

[Glorious NSE]

Two examples I can think of in cornwall were the Ponts Mill trip from St Blazey and the run from Goonbarrow Junction to Carbis Wharf. Neither had a run round so trains were propelled there are pulled back. The first was usually a 08 and all the photos I've seen include a brake van. Is this because a secondman couldn't travel in the cab with the driver? I've seen pics of between 2 and 6 wagons. Most of this run wasn't a freight only line but on the passenger Par to Newquay line.

The trip to Carbis Wharf was, in the 80s, a 37 job and I've never seen a picture with a brake van. Usually just a single clay tiger wagon.

Carbis Wharf I believe was effectively a really long siding from Goonbarrow, if you went down with a brake van you'd have to leave it there. It didn't involve going onto the main line (though it paralleled it, including across level crossings!)

 

Ponts Mill involved a trip on a signalled passenger line.

 

Dealing with signals the deciding factor?

 

 

 

[Stubby47]

Signals aren't a factor, more the principle of pushing wagons ( in this case from Treamble, through a 4ft module and on to Tinner's Forge module).

 

A brake van can be used as there is a fan of sidings at the end. Similarly the factory module will allow the bv to be left on the 'main' whilst the siding is shunted.

 

From what's been said above, local rules can be applied

[The Stationmaster]

Signals aren't a factor, more the principle of pushing wagons ( in this case from Treamble, through a 4ft module and on to Tinner's Forge module).

 

A brake van can be used as there is a fan of sidings at the end. Similarly the factory module will allow the bv to be left on the 'main' whilst the siding is shunted.

 

From what's been said above, local rules can be applied

 

Definitely 'local rules' on BR etc lines - propelling was permitted usually without restriction within Station Limits but otherwise only where authorised by the Sectional Appendix.  A few Cornish examples for you from the late 1960s -

 

Bodmin Road to Bodmin General - maximum = 10 standard wagons in length, in clear weather only at a maximum speed of 10 mph, brakevan required at the leading end.  Bodmin Rd to Bodmin General is 2.5 miles.  

(same conditions applied between Boscarne Jcn and Bodmin General)  N.B. in both cases propelling only authorised in the direction stated i.e. only over the rising gradient

 

St. Blazey - Pontsmill Siding maximum of 30 wagons in clear weather in daylight only at a maximum speed of 8 mph, brakevan required sat the leading end.

 

Goonbarrow Jcn to Carbis Wharf - 25 wagons including brakevan.  No other conditions imposed 

 

Note that as a general rule propelling over a falling gradient or a section which involved a falling gradient was not permitted, particularly with freight vehicles.

[MarcD]

The Furness Rly pushed wagons on its passenger branches. This included pushing wagons up to Black Beck Sidings which was the exchange sidings for the BlackBeck explosives factory. This meant pushing unloaded explosives vans the mile and half from Greenodd Station to the sidings.

 

This practice was continuded until 1928 when the factory closed.

 

Marc

[Nearholmer]

SR sectional appendices permitted very particular propelling movements on the front of passenger and goods trains at very particular places, only two three wagons, though. In other places they permitted quite long trains of wagons to be propelled on goods only lines, the one that always amazes me being the rye harbour branch, which had a level crossing over a fairly busy road. In that case, a van was at the very front, with the guard giving hand signals to the driver twenty wagons behind.

 

K

[TheSignalEngineer]

In my old home area the Harborne Branch ran for over 2 miles from the main line to the terminus.  

The daily trips were often pushed up the bank from Harborne Junction which was was 1 in 66 most of the way.

 

I'm not sure whether this was a local arrangement for working convenience or if it was covered in te instructions but I think it was started following a breakaway.

[The Johnster]

One train I was familiar with, though not in it's propelling mode, was the Cardiff Canton Sidings to Calvert Bricks.  As a Canton Guard, the job was to work to Swindon for relief, via Bristol Lawrence Hill, where we picked up, and Box, our only regular brake van working over that route in the 70s.  Hymeks were used until they were withdrawn and replaced by 37s.  A class 6 fully fitted train, we worked 'back cab' as far as Lawrence Hill, where the rest of the train was attached including a vacuum fitted brake van with gauges and a brake setter.  Our part of the working was single manned.

 

This train, after I had been relieved at Swindon, ran via Didcot and Oxford, and was propelled several miles to the London Brick Companiy's brickworks which were on a stub of the Great Central's London Extension.  The train, when completed at Lawrence Hill, was a full 60 standard wagons in length, and the van was mostly out of sight of the propelling loco's crew, which necessitated the fitted van, I believe manned by a travelling shunter as well as the guard, to apply the brake from the setter if needed.  

 

Another Canton propelling turn was the E76 (we were still using the old reporting number for it) Penarth North Curve pilot, an 08.  This ran trips from Penarth North Curve Yard (for the incognesciti, nowhere near Penarth, but named after the curve it was situated alongside which ran from Ninian Park Halt to Grangetown, part of the TVR's original Penarth Dock Branch) to Ferry Road, accessed by ground frame at Grangetown, and Ely Paper Mill.  The Ferry Road trip propelled in the outward direction, and serviced the Esso tank farm at Ely Harbour and the various scrapyards and light engineeers on Ferry Road itself.  The Paper Mill leg involved propelling out to the mill, which had an RSH 0-4-0ST for me to play with, the traffic being 5 plank opens for paper bales, and 16ton minerals.  The return trip was hauled conventionally by the loco, but was accomplished 'wrong road' as there was no crossover at the paper mill's ground frame; the loco had to carry a red light leading and the rear wagon a white one, hung from the hook if it was a mineral.  Both these trips were loose coupled and with no brake van, and accompanied by a travelling shunter from North Curve.

 

As Mike says, authorised by local instructions in the appropriate Sectional Appendices.  IIRC the Ely trip was allowed to propel up to 60 wagons or equivalent length, and to draw the same number back, loose coupled and without a brake van.  Canton used to send new guards, yours truly included, out to accompany this duty to gain some railway experience while waiting for the next training course to start, and a very effective lesson in the basics of railway wok it was, too.

 

Last I heard of the RSH it had been taken on by the Welsh Industrial and Maritime Museum, but I have lost track of it.

 

I once propelled a very long train of dogfish with a Shark ploughvan in front, in which I rode, wrong road back up the SWML from St Fagans to North Curve on a Sunday; that, of course, was, at the start anyway, under the authority of the Per Way inspector in charge of the possession, which ended (or began, depending on which way you were going) at Leckwith Junction.  I had to stop the train with the setter to telephone the panel at the junction signal, which of course applied to the up road while we were on the down, to get verbal permission to proceed through the junction as far as the calling on signal at Ninian Park, which would take us into the yard and finish the job.  The Per Way inspector rode with me that far to remove the red banner across the track.  Having got permission, I had to call the driver 50 dogfish or so away on by hand signal; he reckoned aftewards he could see me clearly enough but only because I was waving a newspaper!  Loco was a 37, and I could only just make out the horn he acknowledged me with, then it seemed an age before the van began to move, presumably the time it took to blow all those vacuum brakes off.  Because of the curvature of the track, I never saw the loco again until we'd berthed at North Curve. I'd only been on the job a few weeks and was very aware of the enormous responsibility of it all, but it all went smoothly enough!

[br2975]

 

Another Canton propelling turn was the E76 (we were still using the old reporting number for it) Penarth North Curve pilot, an 08.  This ran trips from Penarth North Curve Yard (for the incognesciti, nowhere near Penarth, but named after the curve it was situated alongside which ran from Ninian Park Halt to Grangetown, part of the TVR's original Penarth Dock Branch) to Ferry Road, accessed by ground frame at Grangetown, and Ely Paper Mill.  The Ferry Road trip propelled in the outward direction, and serviced the Esso tank farm at Ely Harbour and the various scrapyards and light engineeers on Ferry Road itself.  The Paper Mill leg involved propelling out to the mill, which had an RSH 0-4-0ST for me to play with, the traffic being 5 plank opens for paper bales, and 16ton minerals.  The return trip was hauled conventionally by the loco, but was accomplished 'wrong road' as there was no crossover at the paper mill's ground frame; the loco had to carry a red light leading and the rear wagon a white one, hung from the hook if it was a mineral.  Both these trips were loose coupled and with no brake van, and accompanied by a travelling shunter from North Curve.

 

As Mike says, authorised by local instructions in the appropriate Sectional Appendices.  IIRC the Ely trip was allowed to propel up to 60 wagons or equivalent length, and to draw the same number back, loose coupled and without a brake van.  Canton used to send new guards, yours truly included, out to accompany this duty to gain some railway experience while waiting for the next training course to start, and a very effective lesson in the basics of railway wok it was, too.

 

Last I heard of the RSH it had been taken on by the Welsh Industrial and Maritime Museum, but I have lost track of it.

 

 

Excellent information 'Johnster', about a train that captured my interest for several years; as in the late 60s  a late morning trip to Radyr brought E76 (or its predecessor, which I'm told was PCN 'pilot' 9H57) past my classroom window.

.

Initially I recalled it as a 'nine fiver' (Cl.14 to the youngsters), even after they were all withdrawn one still occasionally appeared - Canton kept them in running order in face of possible sale to the NCB or BSC.

.

However, it is as an '08' job I recall E76 best, with, as "Johnster" mentions up to 60 SLU behind it, you could hear, and even feel, the 08 long before you saw it.

.

The attachment shows E76 as the May-October 1976 WTT intended, but like many trips I've no doubt it was dependent upon the traffic on hand.

.

Brian R

.

PS

The RSH 0-4-0ST is currently undergoing restoration at the Garw Valley Railway, Pontycymmer.

9E76 030576-031076-in detail.xls

[flapland]

Although near where I was brought up I can't remember if the coal wagons to Chadderton Goods were propelled or not. I suspect not as there were three sidings and a industrial shunter which could have released any loco. I never saw anything apart from a 08 on the branch but at the time it was of little interest as I was usually more interested in the freight workings on the mainline especially the Red Bank Parcels around 12:30. 

 

This site may be of interest to others. http://www.chaddy-goods.co.uk

 

Update:Having looked at the loco workings on the site I can see some were propelled. 

[Stubby47]

Thanks again to all contributors - very informative and definitely allows me to propel a few wagons into Tinner's Forge without fear of being laughed at.

 

This post may help understand my idea : http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/42379-stubby47s-old-layout-idea-possibly-making-a-sort-of-comeback/?p=2633688

[Nearholmer]

Probably not directly relevant, but another class of train that often used to make long propelling movements was engineers' trains.

 

Propelling is common within a possession, but it used to be common to make long propelling movements, quite often 'bang road', outside of the block, to get to the site of work, then have the possession "set up around you". These moves were covered by the relevant notice, and could get quite complicated if automatic level crossings were involved. Naturally, they were made at very restricted speed, and ultra-carefully, because it was sometimes difficult to maintain a clear line of sight from the guard to the driver, and I've seen cases where it was necessary to post men at intervals along the train to relay signals - oddly enough this works better at night, with hand lamps than in daylight.

 

I haven't worked engineers' trains for nearly thirty years now, and my observation is that most now seem to get a loco at each end, and, of course, everything is better controlled because of the availability of radio communication.

 

Kevin

[jwealleans]

The double track Guisborough branch was (uniquely I believe) worked as two single lines, one goods, one passenger. Trains from Middlesbrough drove in and reversed out, trains from Loftus did the opposite.

 

Quite why it was worked like that I can't say but I believe the arrangement preceded the LNER and persisted until the station closed in 1964.

[TheSignalEngineer]

The double track Guisborough branch was (uniquely I believe) worked as two single lines, one goods, one passenger.

Stourbridge Junction to Stourbridge Town was the same. The Goods Branch continued on past the passenger station.

[EddieB]

Opposite end of the country, but the WTT allowed for wagons to be propelled along a section of the Saffron Walden branch line, first to serve an oil terminal (Air Ministry sidings) during WW2 and later to serve the Acrow factory sidings (late 'fifties).  There was a limit to the number of wagons and maximum speed - as many as 30 tank wagons being permitted.  In both cases, we're only looking at a relatively short distance (just over one mile to the trailing point serving the Acrow factory) but on a rising gradient and a sparse passenger service on this section of the branch line. 

[Bernard Lamb]

On the Midland branch to Hemel Hempstead trains would run in the normal fashion as far as Heath Park Halt.

From here there were two short branches one to Duck Hall and the gas works and the other to a small goods yard in Cotterells.

The normal way of working was to leave the brake van at Heath Park and push any wagons down the branches.

The branches were both quite short the Duck Hall one being the longer.

Bernard

[sulzer27jd]

The former Caledonian Railway line to Kirriemuir, had two public sidings worked by the LMS from 1934 and BR until closure of the branch, using wagons propelled between the sidings and the terminus. This being over a passenger line, for a distance of up to 2 miles.

 

John

[russ p]

Trains on the Sizewell branch up until 1998 used to run round in the loop before leiston station an propel the last mile or so to the railhead

[Stubby47]

Thanks again for all the posts - makes some very interesting reading.

 

Following Mike's comment earlier : "Note that as a general rule propelling over a falling gradient or a section which involved a falling gradient was not permitted, particularly with freight vehicles.", I wonder how many of the given examples above included a downhill gradient - they can't all have been flat or up hill ?

[The Johnster]

Excellent information 'Johnster', about a train that captured my interest for several years; as in the late 60s  a late morning trip to Radyr brought E76 (or its predecessor, which I'm told was PCN 'pilot' 9H57) past my classroom window.

.

Initially I recalled it as a 'nine fiver' (Cl.14 to the youngsters), even after they were all withdrawn one still occasionally appeared - Canton kept them in running order in face of possible sale to the NCB or BSC.

.

However, it is as an '08' job I recall E76 best, with, as "Johnster" mentions up to 60 SLU behind it, you could hear, and even feel, the 08 long before you saw it.

.

The attachment shows E76 as the May-October 1976 WTT intended, but like many trips I've no doubt it was dependent upon the traffic on hand.

.

Brian R

.

PS

The RSH 0-4-0ST is currently undergoing restoration at the Garw Valley Railway, Pontycymmer.

 

Yes, Brian, I'd heard it was a D95xx job previously, and apparently a Radyr 94xx prior to that.  Fairwater Comprehensive?  Canton provided the loco, and driver, when I knew it  By my time, early 70s, we still went to Radyr 'as required' with it, usually on Fridays when a bit of traffic had accumulated, but in the form of a conventional transfer freight, drawn by the 08, as you say drastically overloaded, with a brake van on the back, from North Curve to Radyr Quarry.  I also recall working to Long Dyke on occasions as well, again with a brake van.  There were still a few D95xx at the back of Canton shed awaiting disposal when I started in 1970, but I never saw one on the E76 or any other duty after they were withdrawn.  They would be started up and moved around the shed yard occasionally, presumably as demonstrators for potential buyers.

 

There were 2 pilot duties at North Curve, this one and a Per Way 'as required' with it's own reporting number in the Z series; I have forgotten what it was, but it seemed to be a permanent allocation. North Curve was a busy little yard which, as well as the Ferry Road and Ely Mill trips, dealt with the loco fuel tanks for Canton, the coal yard at Virgil Street (this was at the back of the old Ninian Park football stadium), accessed down a bank via a sprung hand point, the type you had to stand on the lever of (a sort of pedal was attached to it) while the train passed over it*, and in addition it acted as a marshalling point for per way traffic, particularly the build up of wagons for weekend occupations and their dispersal afterwards.  Several trains called during the day to drop off or pick up traffic, sometimes both. and there were morning and afternoon shifts for 2 shunters and a wagon examiner.  The ground frame which accessed it had 5 levers, but the other side of the running lines had another ground frame which controlled the entrance to Canton Carriage Sidings at that end and the 'Taff Vale' sidings behind the up platform at Ninian Park station; this had 14 levers and was the biggest ground frame I ever worked, much bigger than Aberthaw West which still had a proper signal box building to live in!

 

I learned more about railways in the first day at North Curve than in the previous decade of trainspotting, and the revelation of how little I knew in comparison to how much I thought I knew was a bit of a shock!  

 

I once saw an 08 pulling 3 1.000 ton rafts, to make up 3 trains, of bogie bolsters loaded with steel billets through Tidal Sidings towards Pengam, in order to set them back into the sidings and split them into their trains; it had arrived, eventually, from the Stonefields direction and I watched from the shunter's cabin while I was waiting for one of the trains, to work upline somewhere.  I was first aware of it as the familiar sound of an 08 'digging in', but after a few minutes it dawned on me that it wasn't getting closer any time soon, or apparently going away either.  Now that was impressive!  And stopping the train, even from the crawl it was moving at, was pretty impressive, too!

 

Glad to hear my little saddle tank friend is being looked after, and must schedule in a visit to Pontycymmer to see it.  Wiggins Teape certainly kept it well, as it was always immaculately clean.

 

 

*this was to prevent the point being left set for the coal yard and wagons accidentally being sent down the bank to mingle with the traffic on Virgil Street.

[The Johnster]

Thanks again for all the posts - makes some very interesting reading.

 

Following Mike's comment earlier : "Note that as a general rule propelling over a falling gradient or a section which involved a falling gradient was not permitted, particularly with freight vehicles.", I wonder how many of the given examples above included a downhill gradient - they can't all have been flat or up hill ?

 

 

The 'E76 pilot' job I have referred to (post 10) was level throughout the running line sections it propelled over, but the Ferry Road Branch was, in it's entirety, classed as a siding.  We did propel down the bank from the Ely Harbour road to the sidings off Ferry Road proper, into road traffic and often having to move parked cars (the travelling shunters were hefty lads) out of the way, as well!  The Calvert branch was outside the scope of my route knowledge, and I have no idea what gradients it contained, only that propelling was done over several miles of it, but this was a fully vacuum fitted train which would come to a stand because the brakes would be applied automatically in the event of a train parting due to coupling failure, almost unknown with the instanters used, or any other reason.  It had a vacuum fitted brake van leading with a guard and a travelling shunter aboard.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks again for all the posts - makes some very interesting reading.

 

Following Mike's comment earlier : "Note that as a general rule propelling over a falling gradient or a section which involved a falling gradient was not permitted, particularly with freight vehicles.", I wonder how many of the given examples above included a downhill gradient - they can't all have been flat or up hill ?

 

I've had a quick look at most of the Western ones as listed in the late 1960s and they were almost all on the flat or uphill or were where the only propelling permitted was over the rising gradient with it not permitted in the opposite direction.  Hayle is one I would consider a possible exception because of the way the movements were carried out (but there any fitted wagons were required to be marshalled next to the loco).  St Blazey to Par Dock was also probably a very slight falling gradient in one but that required two Shunters to accompany the move including one walking ahead of it.

 

Offhand I can't think of any in South Wales where propelling of freight vehicles was permitted on falling gradients and there were definitely none in the London Division. And in later years there was an ever growing list of locations were it was prohibited to propel engineering trains in possessions, many were gradient linked but not all.

[Fat Controller]

The 'E76 pilot' job I have referred to (post 10) was level throughout the running line sections it propelled over, but the Ferry Road Branch was, in it's entirety, classed as a siding.  We did propel down the bank from the Ely Harbour road to the sidings off Ferry Road proper, into road traffic and often having to move parked cars (the travelling shunters were hefty lads) out of the way, as well!  The Calvert branch was outside the scope of my route knowledge, and I have no idea what gradients it contained, only that propelling was done over several miles of it, but this was a fully vacuum fitted train which would come to a stand because the brakes would be applied automatically in the event of a train parting due to coupling failure, almost unknown with the instanters used, or any other reason.  It had a vacuum fitted brake van leading with a guard and a travelling shunter aboard.

I think the Calvert branch was pretty level; the propelling was presumably from the junction from the Oxford- Bletchley line to the brickworks. I do wonder if the propelling move was the one that the train's going to do here on to the Bristol- South Wales line at Lawrence Hill (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52554553@N06/10420885453/in/album-72157636831122263/ ) ?