34theletterbetweenB&D Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 ...Which leads me to ask isn't the market for Pullmans at saturation point I suppose the answer to this question must be "NO" otherwise why would Hornby do it, but surely can they be anybody left who hasn't got a train of Pullman coaches by now. Wouldn't Hornby's resources be better spent on getting some GWR non-corridor stock out there a full Gresley streamliner set released, to match the zillion A4's already sold? And I do think that a reasonable commercial suggestion because clearly 'glamour' sells. I may be mistaken in this, but the evidence of five distinctly different groups of Pullman car types from Hornby, and two from Bachmann, introduced in OO over the past 15 years, must confer on the C20th Pullman vehicles the best overall coverage of any type of coach operated in the UK, especially when considered in relation to the small numbers in service? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 I've never understood Hornbys fascination with Pullmans , but they must sell, hence the reason they keep producing them. Either that or they really have a crap Sales intelligence system. I know it's sacrilège to some but while I can tell the difference between Mk1 Pullmans and the older styles ,beyond that a Pullmans a Pullman . I've got 5 of them, that's all I will ever need Simon told us on many occasions that whatever else they dropped, Pullmans and Pullman trainsets had to be in the range every year. I've recently done some research for the articles in next month's Model Rail and we're currently on the fourth re-tool of Pullman cars since the shorty Tri-ang version and that's not counting the Brighton Belle EMU and the 12-wheelers as separate toolings. In the 1980s version, one car Lucille was in the range continuously for 20 years! A Pullman car with a popular girls name - of course it will sell. I'm afraid non-corridor stock, GWR or anything else, simply isn't in the same league in terms of potential sales, any more than the Peckett is in the same league as Mallard. Popular appeal to the ordinary, non-railway enthusiast purchaser is what the Pullman has and its what makes it sell. Pullman umber and cream is also the only livery which covers every era from its introduction in 1927 to the present day (the Belmond train). Everyone's heard of Pullman - only the likes of us have heard of Collett non-corridor stock. (CJL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Turpin Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 a full Gresley streamliner set Waving a large wad of £20 notes slowly and provocatively: 'Come on now Hornby, you know want to'. Then adds with a taunting whisper, 'Unless you want Bachmann to show you how to do it, and we give them all our lovely money!' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 Tri-ang's R228 Pullmans arrived in April 1958 and were the second most popular coaches. Between 1962 and 1965 over 45,000 Pullman 1st class coaches were ordered and in 1962 they were the most popular coaches abroad. I think they were the first model coaches to have interiors and the tables laid out for a meal and the brass table lamps with pink shades were impressive. The availability of 'South Wales Pullman' train boards, 'Golden Arrow' stickers and a waiter and passengers added to the play value. Even the Model Railway Constructor described the body detail as superb. Please see Tri-ang Railways The Story of Rovex Volume 1 1950-1965 by Pat Hammond for further information The success of the Tri-ang Pullmans probably inspired Hornby-Dublo to produce theirs. At the time I thought they were the last word but the Pullmans that Hornby now produce make both the Tri-ang and Hornby-Dublo Pullmans look toy like. I would still like to have some passengers and catering staff to go in them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Roger Sunderland Posted March 3, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 3, 2017 Well I would hope the sales of collett corridor stock would be proof of how well new non-corridor stock would sell Believe it or not there are people who don't model the GWR! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil gollin Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 . Are any of the presently available TYPES (not specific names/numbers) suitable for the Southern Region ? (I assume the FUTURE square window version to be released with the Golden Arrow Train Pack will be correct ?) . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 . Are any of the presently available TYPES (not specific names/numbers) suitable for the Southern Region ? (I assume the FUTURE square window version to be released with the Golden Arrow Train Pack will be correct ?) . Some timber and some all-steel K-types ran on the Southern - the latter post-1961 on the Western Section. Prior to that the Southern had match-boarded 8 and 12 wheel cars, most of which were replaced when all-steel K-types were cascaded from the East Coast ML by the arrival of Met-Camm Mk1 Pullmans in 1960/1. So most Hornby car types suit the SR at some period. Not surprising as Hornby has always liked to do 'local' models from their home territory. Speaking specifically of the Golden Arrow, this train was re-equipped in 1951 with U-type cars, distinguished by their shallower main windows with cream above and below, steel doors with smaller oval windows, and rectangular lavatory and pantry windows. So far, no suitable models are available or promised. As there were no U-type brakes, several older cars were updated with rectangular toilet and pantry windows to match BUT THEY RETAINED THEIR ORIGINAL MAIN WINDOWS and the original doors at at one end. At the other end the vestibule was converted into a guards compartment and fitted with a door having a rectangular droplight. These were known as Guard Parlour cars. Two notable ones were First Class Minerva and Third Class Car No. 208 which I believe are two of the cars in the proposed Hornby set. No. 208 was the only non-U-type to carry the proper Corporate Image Rail Grey and blue livery. Minerva survives in the VSOE/Belmond Pullman but has been extensively rebuilt with oval windows etc so does not look like it did when running on the Golden Arrow. All this and more Pullman info is in Model Rail April issue published on March 9 next week. (CJL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 R4738 Minerva and R4740 Argus worked on the 'Devon Belle'. Please see The 'Devon Belle' article by Chris Leigh in the February 2006 Model Rail. R4739 34 also worked on the 'Devon Belle' Hornby has made many of the other Pullmans for the 'Devon Belle' in the past including the observation car. It is possible to represent this train using Hornby coaches. 21C3 'Royal Mail' was one of the locomotives used in 1947 but, unfortunately, not in the same form as the Hornby model which represents the locomotive as it was in 1943. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted March 3, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 3, 2017 Believe it or not there are people who don't model the GWR! Indeed, most hobbies attract a lunatic fringe like that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 One of the problems is that even with all these Pullmans, I think you are still struggling to make a correct formation for most Pullman trains. After starting to do the research to build a set of Steel Ks using Hornby/Keen/Comet parts and getting quite interested in them, the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned. Started before the Hornby ones were announced. This was inspired by a thread on RMWeb. I might finish them one day. Since then I've bought a Hornby Brighton Belle set and have actually changed my modelling priorities because of it. So buying more Pullmans cars is definitely on the horizon for me. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivegreen Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 Indeed, most hobbies attract a lunatic fringe like that Oh come on, do you mean that there really were companies whose coaches were not painted green? I've never seen any in my asylum home. But then... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted March 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 3, 2017 Oh come on, do you mean that there really were companies whose coaches were not painted green? I've never seen any in my asylum home. But then... Ah ....but was it the RIGHT green ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovex Posted March 3, 2017 Author Share Posted March 3, 2017 I knew that my throwaway comment about GWR non-corridor stock was a mistake Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted March 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 3, 2017 I knew that my throwaway comment about GWR non-corridor stock was a mistake Never mind.Confession is good for the soul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted March 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 3, 2017 Ah ....but was it the RIGHT green ? The Men in Malachite Green and Sunshine Yellow Striped robes stand ready to extract these infidels and re-educate them Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Co-tr-Paul Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 My only gripes with Hornby Pullmans is 1) only made in one colour style. Some ran in maroon, green, blue/grey at points in their lives which would be nice in rtr form - I see a Bulmurs Pullman pack selling well ! 2) could we have some earlier vehicles, Maid Of Morvah for example? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 Wasn't there also some ex LMS ones that carried Blood and Custard? I seem to remember a colour photograph of one in an early issue of Backtrack. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinTrucks Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 Wasn't there also some ex LMS ones that carried Blood and Custard? I seem to remember a colour photograph of one in an early issue of Backtrack. Jason Yes, but they were distinctly different from those wood K-types that Hornby produce. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 I thought that. But the post above mine mentioned Maid Of Morvah which I think was an ex LMS one. So I decided to mention them anyway. I would like a set of Midland ones as well. Not the Midland Pullman diesel, but the American style cars. Or how about an LBSC set complete with PUP. I'm not suggesting these as RTR models, just that I think they would make very good subjects to model. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 British Railways repainted six 1926 wooden bodied cars green in 1958 and used them on Waterloo-Southampton Docks boat trains for two years before they were transferred to ordinary stock and withdrawn in 1963/64. To provide some colourful trains Wrenn produced some Pullmans in Southern and LMS liveries. Tri-ang made one in Wagon Lits livery. To me the blue and grey Brighton Belle and Golden Arrow coaches look dreadful yet the Blue Pullman train looks attractive and would look wrong in umber and cream livery. The availability of the new Hornby Pullman coaches has caused the value of the Hornby Dublo and Wrenn Pullmans to plummet. The Wrenn Pullman prices shot up overnight as soon as Wrenn stopped producing them but now you can buy a rake of them for £48. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 Tri-ang's 1961 catalogue cover shows Britannia hauling a rake of Pullmans but Tri-ang did not promote the Pullmans inside the catalogue. There was simply an illustration of a rake of Pullmans being propelled by a diesel shunter. Perhaps Tri-ang did not need to advertise them. 1961 was a good year for model railways as the crimson and cream coaches were marketed alongside the new maroon, green and brown and cream coaches and the Pullmans added to the colourful scene. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted March 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 3, 2017 Idle speculation.It seems this thread is rekindling an interest in Pullman cars.Wonder how many have been sold as a result of this discussion over the last week ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinTrucks Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 I thought that. But the post above mine mentioned Maid Of Morvah which I think was an ex LMS one. So I decided to mention them anyway. I would like a set of Midland ones as well. Not the Midland Pullman diesel, but the American style cars. Or how about an LBSC set complete with PUP. I'm not suggesting these as RTR models, just that I think they would make very good subjects to model. Jason Maid of Morwen was a 8-wheeled kitchen-observation car built in 1914. It was one of a number of cars (12-wheelers) allocated under a 20-year contract to the Caledonian Railway. Other cars (8-wheelers) to which I referred earlier, were added in 1923. The LMS took them over in 1934 and they ceased to be Pullman cars as such from that date. By all means feel free to paint a Hornby matchboard K-type Pullman in LMS crimson lake if you wish. However, if you are a modeller who requires an as-accurate-as-possible model of a particular car, this will not be for you. Model Pullmans are best viewed casually. The more one learns, the less satisfying the Hornby matchboard 8-wheelers become! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Whereas the all-steel K type cars, which were built in a discrete batch and thus more uniform, seem to me pretty good for 'as in service in the early thirties' condition. How excellent that we have an Ivatt Atlantic available capable of roaring along on the front too, that can be easily massaged into early thirties condition. I knew that my throwaway comment about GWR non-corridor stock was a mistake. I feel you should maintain quiet and dignified optimism. Hornby have 'form' in working their way around the companies over time, though the exact plan is not transparent to outside observers. Why so slow getting around to the LMS non-gangwayed compartment stock for example, when they had a stack of traction in their range to haul it, (and yet more available from the competition)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forester Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Model Pullmans are best viewed casually. The more one learns, the less satisfying the Hornby matchboard 8-wheelers become! The Hornby 8-wheeler wooden K-type Pullmans are actually quite good models of the individual cars they were produced from, with a couple of exceptions . The problem lies with the later Hornby policy of re-releasing them with totally arbitrary names and numbers of cars they bear little resemblance to. If you stick with the original name/numbers or carefully look for cars which match the various styles it is possible to build a pretty accurate rake. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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