First Group win South West franchise

[D854_Tiger]

FirstGroup boosts its Waterloo trains with £895m British deal - http://www.standard.co.uk/business/firstgroup-boosts-its-waterloo-trains-with-895m-british-deal-a3568851.html

 

Do we know where the old (rather new) Siemens trains will be going.

 

Are these the rather nice trains currently operating the Waterloo - Weymouth line and being maintained down there, under a rather long term maintenance contract, by Siemens and in a purpose built maintenance centre as well.

[Dunsignalling]

Do we know where the old (rather new) Siemens trains will be going.

 

Are these the rather nice trains currently operating the Waterloo - Weymouth line and being maintained down there, under a rather long term maintenance contract, by Siemens and in a purpose built maintenance centre as well.

No, the units affected are the brand new ones not yet in service. They are dual DC/AC capable as built so should find new homes without too much difficulty.  

 

The class 444 and 450 units should stay on the duties they currently cover.

 

John

[Southernman46]

Are the 458's staying in service ??

[John M Upton]

Nope, they are going as well.

[phil-b259]

Just to clarify:-

 

The 450, 444, 158 & 159 classes are staying under the new franchise with no reductions in fleet quantities. No changes are planned with respect of maintenance responsibilities re Siemens.

 

The 455, 456, 458 & 707 classes are going under the new franchise, all replaced by new Bombardier stock.

[Gwiwer]

As the new stock isn't even in build yet we can expect the new franchisee to continue the old order for a couple of years yet.  Whether they re-livery or simply rebrand the suburban fleet remains to be seen but the main line fleet which is being retained will surely lose Stagecoach style as quickly as Northam can accommodate the vinyl application team.

 

Still not seen anything de-branded with just a couple of weeks to go but "South Western Railway" has emerged as the new trading name for the Farce/Empty-Ah show.

http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse%20documents/track%20access/1%20current%20consultations/01-08-2017%20-%20first%20mtr%20south%20west%20trains%20-%20section%2017%20-%20closes%20tuesday%2029th%20august%202017/passenger-access-application-form-p%20fmswt%20dec18%20v2.pdf

 

Other snippets of interest from that document include the Chertsey line being reduced to a Weybridge - Virginia Water shuttle and the Ascot - Guildford service is split across Aldershot.  In practice it carries few through passengers anyway.

 

Proposals for changes west of Southampton appear to be set in stone.  From Waterloo it's one an hour Weymouth, one an hour Poole semi fast and one an hour Southampton semi-fast with a new semi-fast Portsmouth - Southampton service (effectively replacing the Southern trains which may have to be pathed via Eastleigh) and the Portsmouth - Southampton stopper extended to Weymouth.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Gwiwer

[john new]

As the new stock isn't even in build yet we can expect the new franchisee to continue the old order for a couple of years yet. Whether they re-livery or simply rebrand the suburban fleet remains to be seen but the main line fleet which is being retained will surely lose Stagecoach style as quickly as Northam can accommodate the vinyl application team.

 

Still not seen anything de-branded with just a couple of weeks to go but "South Western Railway" has emerged as the new trading name for the Farce/Empty-Ah show.http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse%20documents/track%20access/1%20current%20consultations/01-08-2017%20-%20first%20mtr%20south%20west%20trains%20-%20section%2017%20-%20closes%20tuesday%2029th%20august%202017/passenger-access-application-form-p%20fmswt%20dec18%20v2.pdf

 

Other snippets of interest from that document include the Chertsey line being reduced to a Weybridge - Virginia Water shuttle and the Ascot - Guildford service is split across Aldershot. In practice it carries few through passengers anyway.

 

Proposals for changes west of Southampton appear to be set in stone. From Waterloo it's one an hour Weymouth, one an hour Poole semi fast and one an hour Southampton semi-fast with a new semi-fast Portsmouth - Southampton service (effectively replacing the Southern trains which may have to be pathed via Eastleigh) and the Portsmouth - Southampton stopper extended to Weymouth.

What I have not read anywhere is why anyone thinks dropping the 2nd Weymouth - Waterloo that gets used in favour of an every lamp post stopping Dorset to Portsmouth service makes sense. If anyone can explain the justification for it, given the previous Pompey - Bmth service was such a fantastically commercial success it got withdrawn, I'd be interested to read it, Edited August 5, 2017 by john new

[john new]

And as a follow-up will the one an hour Weymouth include the useful Clapham Junc stop or miss it out? That's a very useful exchange point option.

[Gwiwer]

The question regarding the stopping Weymouth switching from Waterloo to Portsmouth begs the question where do people travel to and from? There is no ORCATS to raid within one franchise, there is another train available hourly for trips northwards from Southampton. So are there enough purely local trips west of Bournemouth to sustain the service?

[john new]

The question regarding the stopping Weymouth switching from Waterloo to Portsmouth begs the question where do people travel to and from? There is no ORCATS to raid within one franchise, there is another train available hourly for trips northwards from Southampton. So are there enough purely local trips west of Bournemouth to sustain the service?

Except you are unlikely to get a seat, which you've already had when going north. More sensible for the few people heading towards Pompey (In comparison to those going northwards) to change at Southampton.  Experience travelling pax on the existing shows most people from west of Southampton stay on the train.

[Zomboid]

The change is only really for London (or stations north of Southampton) passengers from west of Poole. I've no idea how many of those there are, but it won't adversely affect people from stations between Poole and Southampton. Unless I've misunderstood what's planned.

[D854_Tiger]

The change is only really for London (or stations north of Southampton) passengers from west of Poole. I've no idea how many of those there are, but it won't adversely affect people from stations between Poole and Southampton. Unless I've misunderstood what's planned.

 

I'm guessing most of the Weymouth - London demand is weekday peak time anyway and I'm also guessing the peak time provision won't change.

 

Whenever I've been that way the service mainly seems to be fulfilling local needs, most especially to and from Bournemouth during sunny school holidays, expanding the number of local options seems like a good idea to me. Then withdrawing the previous Bournemouth - Portsmouth service was a decision made as much for operating convenience as anything.

 

Like you say, Poole's London service provision remains unchanged.

 

The Weymouth line undoubtedly benefited from the service going half-hourly but whether that needed to be to London always was doubtful, considering the London trains always did lose half their coaches, when going that way, which kind of told you all you needed to know about the level of demand for them.

[petethemole]

Not entirely, isn't the power west of Poole only sufficient for one unit? A decision no doubt made on the basis of demand at the time. Going back to steam days most Weymouth trains split at Bournemouth.

[Gwiwer]

The power west of Poole will accommodate more than one unit and more than one train. But there are limits and the control room needs to be aware of any out-of-course stock working. The intention is, as I read the document, to replace one Weymouth - Waterloo each hour with a Weymouth - Portsmouth so no net change. Peak services are arranged to meet both demand and current-supply limitations which is one reason why a handful of trains splits/attaches at Bournemouth. It offers both semi-fast and all-stations at much the same time and spreads the electrical load.

[John M Upton]

Diverting all the Southern Brighton/Southampton's via Eastleigh and Airport Parkway will be a tad tricky as whilst train crew sign Southampton via Netley, far fewer sign the diversion via Eastleigh route (in the case of Brighton crews, none at all, Eastleigh is exclusively Barnham Depot turf) as just two or three a day go that way currently.

Edited August 6, 2017 by John M Upton

[john new]

The power west of Poole will accommodate more than one unit and more than one train. But there are limits and the control room needs to be aware of any out-of-course stock working. The intention is, as I read the document, to replace one Weymouth - Waterloo each hour with a Weymouth - Portsmouth so no net change. Peak services are arranged to meet both demand and current-supply limitations which is one reason why a handful of trains splits/attaches at Bournemouth. It offers both semi-fast and all-stations at much the same time and spreads the electrical load.

True but why the beepty beep do we have to loose the recent improvement of a 2nd Waterloo service from Stations Wey to Poole when I really cannot see a massive demand for travel eastwards along the coast. If it is for operational only reasons then the customers in western Dorset are getting well stuffed as we are losing out big time.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Though Poole has three through trains an hour to Waterloo, the stopping service is overtaken by one of the Weymouth fasts, so in effect has two per hour. In fact the stopper is shown on the station screens as terminating at Farnborough, to stop customers getting the slow train if going through to London.

 

So if one of the Weymouth's is diverted to Portsmouth, in effect Poole (and Bournemouth) will only have one fast train an hour to Waterloo.

 

I like the idea of a through Portsmouth service, but not at the expense of losing a Waterloo fast.

[lapford34102]

Totally agree with John that this is a backward step. Wonder where it will leave Wool/Moreton/Upwey, will these lose their direct connection to capital

Perhaps GWR can be persuaded to extend a Westbury service...

Stu

[D854_Tiger]

True but why the beepty beep do we have to loose the recent improvement of a 2nd Waterloo service from Stations Wey to Poole when I really cannot see a massive demand for travel eastwards along the coast. If it is for operational only reasons then the customers in western Dorset are getting well stuffed as we are losing out big time.

 

My guess, in the end, it's ticket sales that count and tell the only story that matters.

 

The TOC will have surely seen that data and perhaps compared the number of London bookings with the number of Portsmouth bookings, already being made, despite there being no through trains and decided the change made sense for more of their customers.

 

Then, where growing traffic is concerned, that's all that counts in the end, keeping the maximum number of punters happy is the best way to have more of them.

 

Not forgetting that London is largely a captive market, that will have little choice but to fit in with the reduced number of through trains, where Portsmouth journeys are entirely viable by road and probably quicker if you have to change trains en-route.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Only marginally on-topic here (I can't find a thread for Waterloo rebuilding).

 

Good to see a lot of positive coverage on TV this morning about the rebuild. BBC Transport Correspondent presumably on hols as we got the awful Steff McGovern.

[brianusa]

What are the prospects for service improvement to Exeter?

 

Brian.

[Southernman46]

The power west of Poole will accommodate more than one unit and more than one train. But there are limits and the control room needs to be aware of any out-of-course stock working. The intention is, as I read the document, to replace one Weymouth - Waterloo each hour with a Weymouth - Portsmouth so no net change. Peak services are arranged to meet both demand and current-supply limitations which is one reason why a handful of trains splits/attaches at Bournemouth. It offers both semi-fast and all-stations at much the same time and spreads the electrical load.

 

The restriction is due the lack of HV grid capacity at Redlands Grid at the time of electrification and we could only put in a 1.5MW rectifier when it really needs either 2.5MW or 2 x 1.5MW - I suspect with the north expansion of Weymouth in recent years there would now be more capacity available were we doing the same scheme today.

 

Having experienced the Waterloo project each day as a traveller since Friday it feels well managed - the sheer volume of SWT staff on the ground to assist passengers is commendable - let's hope NR have given the same thought to response and Ops staff able to do "railway" things when the remaining railway breaks ............................... although inside knowledge would suggest not    wait until it gets really hot again.

 

It's a strange feeling seeing all that S&C in the suburban throat that increased the grey in my hair for 3 years just simply gone ....... fingers crossed for the project ......... Waterloo has deserved this level of investment for years

Edited August 7, 2017 by Southernman46

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I hope to be at Waterloo on Wednesday, so will try to get some photos. It'll feel strange arriving in the ex-Eurostar platforms, on a local from Shepperton.....

[Gwiwer]

What are the prospects for service improvement to Exeter?

 

Brian.

Apparently more 6-car trains west of Salisbury but no significant timetable changes. NR need to do something about the capacity before many more trains can be run. A longer loop at Tisbury, making it dynamic (able to manage a running cross rather than having one train await the other) is needed at the eastern end. Before the intended Devon Metro local service between Exeter and Honiton / Axminster can be provided there has to be some signalling work done through Honiton. If that service eventuates then London trains may make fewer calls with slightly reduced journey times. SWR has already indicated they intend to cut the London - Salisbury journey times but they haven't said how.

 

  

I hope to be at Waterloo on Wednesday, so will try to get some photos. It'll feel strange arriving in the ex-Eurostar platforms, on a local from Shepperton.....

Via me! Because the Wimbledon route is closed so Strawberry Hill benefits from extra trains as the Sheppertons are reversing at Kingston except for the normal handful which run "direct" via Richmond. Waiting at Richmond at 17.30 tonight I was pleased to hear clear announcements that the next train would be a "Direct Shepperton train NOT running via Kingston." The 17.29 is normally a Roundabout service but for now has been altered to a 17.30 Shepperton direct from Strawberry Hill to Fulwell.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

The National rail journey planner suggests that by changing at Teddington, one can save about 20 min by avoiding the run down to Kingston and back again. Wonder how many are doing that?