Peter Kazmierczak Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 707003 + 707005 They're the ones that have been out and about the most on testing runs; even down to Bournemouth a few times Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted August 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2017 While recognising the importance of investigating an incident such as this, I am with those who feel that too much time is taken over such investigations, whether on the railway or the road network. All the time that the service is disrupted and causing serious congestion elsewhere, you are greatly increasing the risk of further accidents and fatalities elsewhere. Is that a risk that is proportionate to the potential benefits? Probably not, especially in this case where someone has been able (apparently) to take a photo that shows what has happened. PS: And I, too, remember Clapham very well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 I, too, wonder how the cab forward view from 64749 got into the public domain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted August 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) While recognising the importance of investigating an incident such as this, I am with those who feel that too much time is taken over such investigations, whether on the railway or the road network. All the time that the service is disrupted and causing serious congestion elsewhere, you are greatly increasing the risk of further accidents and fatalities elsewhere. Is that a risk that is proportionate to the potential benefits? Probably not, especially in this case where someone has been able (apparently) to take a photo that shows what has happened. PS: And I, too, remember Clapham very well. Having been caught up in the aftermath of a couple of RTAs last week when a major A-road was closed for several hours on two consecutive days following what seem to have been straightforward cases of drivers pulling out of junctions in front of somebody else, AMEN to that. John Edited August 17, 2017 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Once it becomes clear that the train departed correctly, and is thus not at fault, the evidence lies in data logs, relay rooms and equipment cabinets, the necessary inspection/downloading of which should not impede getting the train back on its wheels and out of the way. The points over which it passed will not be able to be properly inspected until that has happened anyway. Yes, there is a need to ensure that such evidence is not tampered with in the mean time, but that is a process of guarding, not investigating. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted August 17, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) In general terms, and referring to roads as much as railway, it would seem that far too much time is now taken up with investigation before roads / railways are reopened. To my mind it is entirely reasonable that evidence should be captured against future investigations but it is of equally pressing importance to reopen the way as soon as possible since, as noted above, disruption lends itself to increasing the risk elsewhere particularly where large numbers of people are gathered or road vehicles diverted via unfamiliar and sometimes distinctly secondary routes. In addition to which the Delay-Repay regime now in operation will mean it costs the operator even more if large numbers of people are delayed by more than the specified time; that time varies by TOC but moves are afoot to standardise on 15 minutes. Edited August 17, 2017 by Gwiwer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted August 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2017 The problem lies not with the investigators but the legal case afterwards. So many things can be thrown out on technicalities that they have to cover every angle before moving anything not deemed as necessary for safety. Sorry but that's the justice system so they don't risk compromising the case for inconvenience to transport links. I was at a bank fire and the fire crew were rather put out how much pressure we were getting from Control to reopen. They commented "we never get this on a road incident". I pointed out that there were diversionary routes available usually on the roads while there were none for the line involved so we would have to look for buses in the middle of school bus services, not likely. Each of the services have separate structures for safety and command and the Police declaring it a crime scene really puts the brakes on as there are more procedures that must be complete or they risk discipline or even legal action later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 While it might have been of interest to see the picture our illustrious leader has got here first and removed it quite reasonably as it may contain matter affecting the employment of one or more persons and have been posted without permission in the light of ongoing investigations. Agreed. Anyone who works for the railway should know that putting anything that they have as a result of their employment into the public domain is usually against the Rules. Railway operators like to keep their communications with the outside world very carefully controlled. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted August 17, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 17, 2017 Well, I hope it doesn't take as long as the road incident near here. On the main road between Welshpool and Newtown (on both the main north-south and east-west routes) a lorry driver managed to drive into the adjacent canal. This destroyed the barrier along the roadside. It was several months before this was replaced, and in the meantime there were "temporary" traffic lights (it is a 2-lane road). It appears that all this time the council, the companjy owning the lorry and insurers were arguing about who would pay! Back on topic, any more news about the change to the new franchise, which is after all imminent? Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Still seen no de-branding. They are keeping it under wraps it appears. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D854_Tiger Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Still seen no de-branding. They are keeping it under wraps it appears. olive green with Drummond lining 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted August 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2017 Still seen no de-branding. They are keeping it under wraps it appears. Staff brief to the crews said they will launch officially in September not during the blockade. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted August 17, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 17, 2017 Still seen no de-branding. They are keeping it under wraps it appears. An hour at Twickers this afternoon produced the expected selection of 450, 455/7, 455/8. 4559/9, 456 and 458 units. None of which was de-branded. The 707s didn't show. Might be interesting to take a late night train on Saturday which starts as SWT and ends as SWR in the early minutes of Sunday morning to see if the internal announcements have been reprogrammed to change at midnight. Staff brief to the crews said they will launch officially in September not during the blockade. However unless varied by DafT the requirement is for the incumbent to remove their branding before handing back the keys. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 All the 444s down my neck of the woods in service, are still fully brander as SWT. Difficult to see if anything is in the paint shop at BM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 I, too, wonder how the cab forward view from 64749 got into the public domain. Pretty easily - after the cement lorry incident at Oxshott, I'd posted some photos I took on site here on RMWeb virtually as soon as I'd got home from site because I thought people would be interested to see them but subsequently removed them pretty soon as I almost immediately had a number of contacts from various press reptiles asking of they could use them ............ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) Well as a celebration of SWT and the Wessex route generally and my previous association with making it work for almost 1/3 of my working life and my current Love / Hate relationship with it .......... ............... I'm spending tomorrow & Saturday at Weybridge, Wimbledon, Durnsford Road, Raynes Park, Barnes Bridge and the Shepperton Branch if I can manage it photographing anything & everything that moves ............... and then I'll order a Bachman 450 on Saturday First Group ................ use virtually ANY livery but white or grey pleasssssssseeeee !! and the 442's - it'll be GREAT to see them back and to be able photo them again even if they do then fall apart quickly. Edited August 17, 2017 by Southernman46 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Pretty easily - after the cement lorry incident at Oxshott, I'd posted some photos I took on site here on RMWeb virtually as soon as I'd got home from site because I thought people would be interested to see them but subsequently removed them pretty soon as I almost immediately had a number of contacts from various press reptiles asking of they could use them ............ But the picture posted was from the forward facing camera in the leading Cl.456 vehicle - it had the time stamped (to the second) plus other data. So I'd have thought that it would've been secured by the BTP. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted August 17, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) But the picture posted was from the forward facing camera in the leading Cl.456 vehicle - it had the time stamped (to the second) plus other data. So I'd have thought that it would've been secured by the BTP. Still doesn't mean it should be made public at this stage though... Edited August 17, 2017 by phil-b259 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Being digital, the investigating authorities (all three of them, and probably Network Rail as well) will have had certified copies. The important point will be that the process of downloading has been witnessed and, as a piece of evidence, secured. There will be other working copies for use in the investigation process. None of this destroys the original. The key point is that if the video footage is required as evidence in any prosecution or disciplinary hearing, it will be one of the certified and secured copies that will be used as it can be warranted as being proof against tampering. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Still doesn't mean it should be made public at this stage though... Exactly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted August 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2017 No free ice cream in the far flung reaches of Empire but these at least have, sorry HAD a train theme 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 Is that the new First livery? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted August 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2017 Is that the new First livery? nah they've been told they all have to go by Saturday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted August 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2017 Still doesn't mean it should be made public at this stage though... Concur. Additionally publishing the same, if it is evidence, can also be illegal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted August 17, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 17, 2017 Concur. Additionally publishing the same, if it is evidence, can also be illegal. Agreed but only if there is already a charge with a hearing pending or in progress in which case the matter is sub judice If any material which enters the public domain legitimately before such charge is laid is later relied upon in evidence it might be open to question but the making of it public was not at the time an offence and the person(s) responsible cannot be charged in retrospect if at a later date the item becomes evidence. The image which was removed from this topic may well have not been used legitimately if it was indeed from the forward-vision camera of the incident train. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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