First Group win South West franchise

[jim.snowdon]

Or a quiet changeover deferred until after the Waterloo works have ended?

 

Jim

[Southernman46]

The re-railing wasn't straightforward and they managed to derail the rear bogie too in the process - it's back on two rails and off site now.

 

Rest of post deleted ................ nights and 3 hours journey create an explosive mix ............ although perversely if the Reading - Salisbury had been as late yesterday as it was today then the connection would have happened anyway 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Southernman46

[Gwiwer]

 

 

these people couldn't run a fecking seaside whelk stall

As ever it is the upper ranks and "suits" who call the shots, make most of the decisions and are responsible for their actions.  Some of those might not be employed beyond the weekend. The on-train staff as ever do the best job they can in trying circumstances.

 

My experience has been that every time someone sneezes all the customer-facing staff vanish.  The worse things get the harder it is to find anyone to provide advise or assistance.  There are reports - which I can corroborate - that the one-way passenger flow in use at Kingston which is a temporary terminus has blocked off the platform lift for entering customers.  It is the wrong side of the barricades though can be used by arriving customers. In theory gateline staff will open the barricades upon request so that a departing customer may use the lift rather than climb the stairs.  On three visits in the past two weeks there have been, respectively, no gateline staff present (barriers open), only one who refused to leave the barriers to help and a collective of three all of whom refused to open the barricades for a wheelchair-bound passenger citing the "one-way system".  Not only unhelpful but questionable under accessibility requirements.  On al three visits there were plenty of staff at platform level (at least ten) all standing around doing nothing.  

 

Hampton Wick has "crowd controllers" when they are not needed - it's quiet at the best of times and to place two crowd controllers on the platform at which all trains go only to Kingston is surely a ridiculous waste.  Almost no-one boards a train there just to cross the river.  Teddington, which is busier, has had as many as 16 staff on one platform.  Strawberry Hill has no-one.  Twickenham has only the usual one or two platform staff.  Richmond has a couple of extras but everyone vanished yesterday.  

 

The blue-coat staff who appear to be extras hired for the duration have no idea where trains go, where they stop (or do not stop - critical when stops are being skipped at short notice) and when they are due.  They tell you "We are crowd controllers".  I doubt it.  Most of them look like school-leavers who couldn't control much at all not qualified and licensed crowd controllers.  I remain of the opinion that from engineering to customer service this project is too big and has been managed poorly in some respects.  

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Thankfully no "crowd controllers" on any of the Shepperton branch stations. I just stayed on the train and passed Teddington and

Hampton Wick twice on my journey to Waterloo.

 

It does confuse the online train announcements/displays though. A bit like a "Two Ronnies" sketch where it announces the next station

as the one you've just left.....

Edited August 16, 2017 by Peter Kazmierczak

[phil-b259]

and yes there is a serious issue in this incident ........................... wait for the official report 

 

That is what I have been hearing from contacts too - the report will be essential reading for all those involved with touching signalling equipment.

[Chris116]

My one trip to Alton during the blockade had a 12 coach train which according to the platform indicators (and in fact) was front 8 to Basingstoke and rear 4 to Alton. The on train announcements however could not make up its mind which part of the train was going where and at one point had the front 4 going to Basingstoke, the middle 4 going to Alton and the rear 4 going to Basingstoke. I awaited the shunting at Woking with interest. Although I knew what was supposed to be happening there were a lot of very confused people. Surely when the announcements are not working correctly the guard should turn them off and make the correct announcement themselves?

Edited August 16, 2017 by Chris116

[PaulRhB]

My one trip to Alton during the blockade had a 12 coach train which according to the platform indicators (and in fact) was front 8 to Basingstoke and rear 4 to Alton. The on train announcements however could not make up its mind which part of the train was going where and at one point had the front 4 going to Basingstoke, the middle 4 going to Alton and the rear 4 going to Basingstoke. I awaited the shunting at Woking with interest. Although I knew what was supposed to be happening there were a lot of very confused people. Surely when the announcements are not working correctly the guard should turn them off and make the correct announcement themselves?

Should do if they were getting the mixed announcements in their part of the train. I've had the same and it was only when the guard came through, was asked and then heard them, that he knew. There followed some brilliant announcements verging on those in the film Airplane

[woodenhead]

TWITS !!!!

 

Language Timothy 

[john new]

The re-railing wasn't straightforward and they managed to derail the rear bogie too in the process - it's back on two rails and off site now.

 

Let rip this morning at one of the SWT "Managers" at Basingstoke who had let the 1st WOE train depart 2 minutes before the late running CONNECTING service from Waterloo arrived - I then had a 50 minute wait which pissed me right off after a long night shift and a 3 hour endurance marathon getting to work yesterday - I take back all the positive things I've said about this project - these people couldn't run a fecking seaside whelk stall let alone a railway that serves its FARE PAYING passengers - 12 of 'em all standing round of Basing P3 looking at their fecking mobile phones whilst NOT managing connecting service properly - TWATS !!!!

 

and I've got to do it all again this evening - bloody hell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

and yes there is a serious issue in this incident ........................... wait for the official report 

They've done that before too with the last train to Weymouth terminating short at Dorchester but running late. But not forcing the replacement bus to WAIT for the train it is replacing before departing therefore stranding people at Dorchester South!

[phil-b259]

It is a role that was, and still is, undertaken by that part of the ORR that is HM Railway Inspectorate, as the safety authority for the railways. It is they, frequently assisted by the specialist engineers and operators from the railway, who have the knowledge to investigate what went wrong and, ultimately whether charges are brought, usually under the Health and Safety at Work Act. Finding out exactly what caused a route to be set into a track that was occupied by another train, if not also part of the engineering possession is unlikely to be simple and not a task that I would expect BTP to be able to undertake.

 

Jim

 

True but there are two strands here.

 

Yes the BTP do not have the technical knowledge to investigate the incident - BUT you cannot rule out the possibility that someone has deliberately disregarded the rules and procedures and left the railway in a dangerous situation as a result. Naturally mistakes can happen and errors in procedure can occur so it does not automatically follow that there was any deliberate breaking of rules / procedures - but in the immediate aftermath of the incident you cannot assume that is the case.

 

Its worth remembering that a few years ago a Thameslink driver was sent to prison for deliberately ignoring the rules as regards TPWS instillation proving the BTP will quite correctly prosecute when required. Similarly I believe some of the people involved in the Wotton Basset SPAD the other year were prosecuted for deliberately breeching safety rules.

 

Thus as nobody can rule out the need for the BTP to gather evidence when it is clear that the signalling design, installation and most importantly testing are quite clearly written to avoid these sorts of situations occurring in the first place. If the investigation finds that the causes are not down to negligence by any party then the BTP can ditch the evidence they have acquired. Conversely if there is evidence of deliberate wrongdoing they already have crucial evidence in place .

 

The RAIB (and the wider railway industry) by contrast have a different agenda - IF the incident is a result of a genuine mistake or problem with safety rules / procedures then it is essential they know why so as to prevent a reoccurrence. Like the BTP they need to know what went wrong - but for different reasons. As such the two investigations overlap and will need access to the same evidence, but as the RAIB results cannot be used as evidence to prosecute both organisations need to work separately.

[jonathan452]

Or a quiet changeover deferred until after the Waterloo works have ended?

 

Jim

From what I can see on this video of yesterday's incident the 'Trains' on 'South West Trains' has already been painted out.

[corneliuslundie]

Luton Airport Parkway station had the ideal message for these situations on Monday "The next train may not be stopping at this platform"

Honest!

It did stop.

And regarding incorrect on-train announcements it is only recently that Arriva TW have sorted out the screens on the 158s so they show the next stop instead of the next but one.

Back on topic, while I understand the need for BTP to gather evidence I do not see why it need take any longer than for the Inspectorate to gather evidence - it will be the same evidence, just used differently.

Now, would all this have happened with Sykes lock and block?!

Jonathan

Edited to correct station name

Edited August 17, 2017 by corneliuslundie

[steve45]

From what I can see on this video of yesterday's incident the 'Trains' on 'South West Trains' has already been painted out.

I think the 'Trains' word is still there, its in red and merges with the background of the overall red livery

[Talltim]

I think the 'Trains' word is still there, its in red and merges with the background of the overall red livery

Looking at some pics, the 'Trains' is orange so doesn't stand out on a red background

[Peter Kazmierczak]

From what I can see on this video of yesterday's incident the 'Trains' on 'South West Trains' has already been painted out.

Jonathan,

I can still see the "TRAINS" bit. It's in a shade of orange that can get "lost" in the red.

 

Edit - Sorry, didn't read the above two posts.....

Edited August 16, 2017 by Peter Kazmierczak

[Peter Kazmierczak]

It makes me smile when on the Fenchurch St line and it's announced that "The next station is Barking", I tend to say "mad" to myself.....

[PaulRhB]

Looking at some pics, the 'Trains' is orange so doesn't stand out on a red background

158 arrived back from refurb at 15:00 in full SWT lettering & livery . . .

Edited August 16, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Talltim]

It makes me smile when on the Fenchurch St line and it's announced that "The next station is Barking", I tend to say "mad" to myself.....

Change at Barking for the Isle of Dogs

[The Stationmaster]

Back in the mid/late 1970s we reached the conclusion on the WR that what we then called 'big bang' possessions' were far more effective than multiple weekend possessions for doing large track and signalling jobs - such as this one at Waterloo.  Even then the amount of time lost simply taking and giving up a possession involving both civil and signal engineers (and potentially other depts too) chewed into the time available to do the work.  If the work itself was tight for time - and it would no doubt have to be tight on some weekend style possessions in the Waterloo throat - there was a greater chance of overruns leading to service chaos.  Similarly with, even then, increased emphasis on S&T testing you needed larger areas to be under possession just for that phase and you would be injecting considerable time at every weekend. 

 

The other problem is resourcing - of both plant and material.  A three week 'big bang' would clearly translate to months of weekend possessions - the simple, mathematics of hours actually available to work leads inevitably to that conclusion.  That also means the necessary plant has to be available every weekend, the testers have to be available, the perway folk have to be available and tehhbuilding folk to alter the platforms.  Getting sensible protection under today's conditions in a site such as that would no doubt occupy almost as much space as that being taken for the current possession - effects on potential interlocking but more particularly traction current to isolate and room for cranes to work will settle that.

 

And the other advantage of a big bang - provided it is correctly timed (as this one is as it coincides with reduced commuting traffic in a holiday month) is that you need only do three lots of train service alterations - weekdays, Saturdays, & Sundays.  But if you go over months you'll likely hit at least one Bank holiday and probably a  change of service which means far more work and far more different services for passengers and no time for anybody to get used to any of them.  I had this discourse in the 1990s with Railtrack who insisted on leaping about here there and everywhere with weekend possessions - as a result over the course of 52 weekends we ran 43 different Sunday train services although our basic Sunday service only changed 3 times.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Rather like a model railway club.

If you have a permanent home, you can leave the layouts up each week and start operating straight away. But if you have to put up and take down layouts in a venue like a church hall each time, then there's less time at "playing trains".

[stewartingram]

It makes me smile when on the Fenchurch St line and it's announced that "The next station is Barking", I tend to say "mad" to myself.....

 

As it is on the Northern line? "The next station Oval" - funny shape for a station! Is the one after that square, or circular?

 

Stewart

[SouthernMafia]

Perhaps the attached image might shed some light. Points were apparently run through on inward working.
 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Andy Y
Image removed for confidentiality reasons

[david.hill64]

Interesting picture. I would have expected that loss of detection (or out of correspondence) should have prevented a route being set.................Someone's for the naughty step.

[phil-b259]

Perhaps the attached image might shed some light. Points were apparently run through on inward working.

 

Not really - other than to confirm what was already fairly obvious - namely that what we have is a serious failure situation that fundamentally compromised the ability of the interlocking to do its job properly!

 

As I have pointed out many times, in principle such a thing is no different to what occurred in 1987 and caused 35 people to lose their lives - hence the need for extreme caution in the immediate aftermath.

 

I would also like to ask where the picture came from as those involved usually don't put stuff in the public domain until investigations are completed.

Edited August 17, 2017 by phil-b259

[Gwiwer]

While it might have been of interest to see the picture our illustrious leader has got here first and removed it quite reasonably as it may contain matter affecting the employment of one or more persons and have been posted without permission in the light of ongoing investigations.

 

In other matters but pertinent to SWT the first class 707 has entered public service today operating trips between Waterloo (Eurostar - or should we revert to calling that "Windsor Side" now?) and Staines / Reading.  Sorry I don't have the set number available.  This keeps SWT's promise to have the class in passenger service during their franchise.  Just.