Gladiator B16/1 A North Eastern Workhorse

[mikemeg]

Rob,

 

Here is one of the B16/1 photos which I have accumulated. If there are any copyright issues, here, then I will of course remove the photo.

 

In particular, look at the lifting eyes in the front mainframes, and the positions and shapes (the top ones are oval; the bottom ones are round) of the washout plugs.

 

Note also that the cab footsteps, on this loco, do not have that graceful curve on their front edges. The driving wheel balance weights are also interesting!

 

And look very closely at the front handrail on the tender; much longer than its corresponding cabside handrail!!

 

Also to note is that there is a mechanical lubricator on this side of the loco. The Isinglass drawing shows a mech. lubricator on the other side of the loco with an annotation indicating that a second lubricator was added on the right hand side of the loco and one on the left hand side. So three of these devices all situated on the footplate just forward of the front splashers.

 

Other details can be picked out, especially if the photo is enlarged to maximum viewing size.

 

From the tender logo, this photo is 1957 or later; from the state of the loco it is later, probably just prior to withdrawal.

 

I do have other B16/1 photos but these are from the 1920's and 30's and do not show the later LNER additions.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited April 28, 2017 by mikemeg

[Rob Pulham]

Thanks Mike, 

 

That's really helpful.

 

Following a query from Graham (Western Star) and a comment about not being able get at the coal by Jim Snowden on the guild forum, further work was done last night to represent the sliding plate on the front of the coal chute. 

 

Without taking the front,  off again and doing major surgery I had to employ a little subterfuge to give the impression of a sliding plate but I feel that once painted it will look the part.

 

 

 

I also managed to get the front upper coal plate fitted and the lifting rings. 

 

 

I still need to add the steps to the sides of the coal chute but that's about as far as I will go on this build (I keep forgetting "straight from the box"...) - I have lots of ideas for future builds of my own though.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Rob Pulham

[mikemeg]

Rob,

 

This is the tender front on the 4 mm model. Again, as with your build, quite a lot of additions over and above the basic kit. Still a little bit of filling to do along one of the joins but that's one of the great advantages of using the grey primer; highlights where this is necessary.

 

The brake standard (left hand standard in the photo)  and water scoop standard (right hand standard) are actually scratch built. The castings in the kit were just wrong and the handles both faced the same way. The two rods on these standards are continued, below the tender footplate, and connected to the cross shaft under the tender drag beam.

 

The single buffer on the tender drag beam and the raised wooden platform are also scratch built, using the photo of the 4125 gallon tender front, posted earlier in this thread, as the basis.

 

I know this is a test build and so should probably be restricted to "what's in the box" but if I'm going to try and do justice to this then why not go that extra distance?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited April 29, 2017 by mikemeg

[Rob Pulham]

HI Mike,

 

I think, aside from being a little on the slim side the brake and water scoop standards look to be okay at first glance. I may add a packing plate just to beef up the mounting a little. I am sure that they face opposite ways too but would need to check on that one. Like you having seen the photo I was planning to at least attempt to connect them to the cross beam.

 

Did I read on your thread that you had shortened the coal raves too? if so you can't tell in the photo that you have just posted.

[mikemeg]

HI Mike,

 

I think, aside from being a little on the slim side the brake and water scoop standards look to be okay at first glance. I may add a packing plate just to beef up the mounting a little. I am sure that they face opposite ways too but would need to check on that one. Like you having seen the photo I was planning to at least attempt to connect them to the cross beam.

 

Did I read on your thread that you had shortened the coal raves too? if so you can't tell in the photo that you have just posted.

 

Rob,

 

The brake and water scoop standards are 0.5mm wire - a scale diameter of 1.5" - which I was assured was the correct diameter. The grey colour and the lighting could make them appear thinner than that. The actual diameter is better seen on the portions just under the raised platform or on the section with the handles.

 

As for the coal raves, no I didn't shorten them though I probably should have. Those in the kit are approximately 3 mm too long when compared to the Isinglass drawing so could do with shortening. I'd be interested to know if this error is propogated to the 7mm kit for if it is, then that would suggest that the 7mm version was not re-drawn but 'shot up' from the 4 mm version.

 

This whole thing is made more complex by the presence of a 3 mm version of this kit; so which was the first? The attribution on the 4 mm etches, which I have, is to the 3 mm Society so perhaps that was the start point.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited May 2, 2017 by mikemeg

[Rob Pulham]

Hi Mike,  I will measure mine and let you know how long they are in scale feet and inches.

[Rob Pulham]

Rob,

 

The brake and water scoop standards are 0.5mm wire - a scale diameter of 1.5" - which I was assured was the correct diameter. The grey colour and the lighting could make them appear thinner than that. The actual diameter is better seen on the portions just under the raised platform or on the section with the handles.

 

Ahh,  mine may well be on the thick side now then... Yesterday having cut short a long weekend up north by yours truly forgetting to take his medication along I looked more closely at the brake and water scoop standards.  I thought initially that although slightly on the fine side that the castings looked usable. - By fine they are quite slender in appearance whereas the photo posted earlier show them to be quite chunky, especially the mounting pieces.

 

These are the castings provided.

 

 

The problem came when testing them against the tender front (stuck in place temporarily with bluetac).

 

 

Despite my cutting them off the sprue with as much length as possible, they are short in the column length

 

I couldn't see any immediate way of extending the column*  A better person than me might have been able cut it of and drill out the fixing brackets but they looked a bit on the fine side for me to be confident that I could achieve it so I decided to have a go at making some replacements.  

 

Now I have to be honest at this point and say that this really became a test exercise to see what I could achieve with my Proxxon mini pillar drill with the X-Y table attachment. I have been looking for something to try it out in anger, having only drilled out 4 buffer stocks since I got it at Christmas. 

 

 

 

 

They took me all day to make but I really enjoyed it and I have parts roughed out to make a couple more for a build for myself at some point. to give an idea of scale/chunkiness the new columns are made from 1.6mm rod (which further to the conversation with Mike above, pretty much replicates the castings).

 

*Thinking about it afterwards I could possibly have joined an extension piece onto the castings where they go through the wooden floor extension that's shown on the photo of the tender front.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Rob Pulham

[ArthurK]

Whereas it is difficult to measure where the precise start and end of the top coal plate is, as near as I can I make it 14' 4" measured from  the GA. I might add that the GA I have is of the unfitted version lacking train brakes and water pick up gear though I have no doubt that the dimensions  of the passenger tenders will be the same. The straight top of the rails is 10' 6"  The GA in Ken Hoole's book should confirm this. 

 

The brake standards a fraction over 1.5 inches in diameter which makes them a fraction over 0.5mm in 4mm or 0.9mm in 7mm.

 

Nice model Rob!

 

ArthurK

[PaulCheffus]

Yesterday having cut short a long weekend up north by yours truly forgetting to take his medication along 

 

Hi

 

I did something similar last year (first time in thirty years) but was able to get an emergency prescription by phoning 111 and collecting it from a Pharmacy local to where I was staying. Might be worth trying this if you are in the same position in the future.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Rob Pulham]

Thanks Arthur,

 

That's what I had worked out after mike quoted his 4mm size. Having spent an entire day making them I don't plan to remake them again especially as it isn't for me but I have noted it for a future build for myself.

 

Another session last night brought the tender a little nearer to completion. 

 

I managed to get all the whitemetal castings soldered on. I still haven't decided whether to fit the small steps at either side of the coal chute or not the jury is still out. 

 

I haven't soldered the coal space/tender front in yet because I want to be able to get at the hand rails, lamp irons etc from the back before I do, then the last job will should be making the corners for the flares.

 

 

[65179]

This is coming along really nicely Rob. 

 

Can I ask a silly question?  Is the toolbox support with an upstand at the back and a gap before the front coalplate as per the prototype?  I ask out of complete ignorance of NER tenders and because almost every model I have seen of an NER 4125 tender seems to look slightly different!  I can't see this area clearly in any of the photos in the relevant Yeadon's Register.

 

Here is my progress to date on my build of the Stephen Barnfield etches (in 2mm scale).

 

 

Please excuse the dodgy phone photo.  All we need now is a 3mm version and we'll have the full set!

 

Simon

Edited May 3, 2017 by 65179

[Rob Pulham]

This is coming along really nicely Rob. 

 

Can I ask a silly question?  Is the toolbox support with an upstand at the back and a gap before the front coalplate as per the prototype?  I ask out of complete ignorance of NER tenders and because almost every model I have seen of an NER 4125 tender seems to look slightly different!  I can't see this area clearly in any of the photos in the relevant Yeadon's Register.

 

Here is my progress to date on my build of the Stephen Barnfield etches (in 2mm scale).

 

IMG_20170427_224448583.jpg

 

Please excuse the dodgy phone photo.  All we need now is a 3mm version and we'll have the full set!

 

Simon

 

Hi Simon,

 

In my book the only silly question is the one that you don't ask.

 

The honest answer is I don't know for certain. Like you I haven't been able to find any clear enough photos to confirm it. I have placed mine that way purely because there are slots etched in the tender top plate to accept them and they leave a gap in between the front coal plate and the upstand of the shelf. I cannot even make out from the photos that I have whether there is in fact an upstand at all. 

 

The upstand has been useful in helping me to solder the tool boxes on securely without getting lot's of solder visible at the front which would have needed cleaning up.

 

I have to say I don't envy you in building this in 2mm scale. I was struggling to see a couple of the bits yesterday in 7mm...

[ArthurK]

This is coming along really nicely Rob. 

 

Can I ask a silly question?  Is the toolbox support with an upstand at the back and a gap before the front coalplate as per the prototype?  I ask out of complete ignorance of NER tenders and because almost every model I have seen of an NER 4125 tender seems to look slightly different!  I can't see this area clearly in any of the photos in the relevant Yeadon's Register.

 

Here is my progress to date on my build of the Stephen Barnfield etches (in 2mm scale).

 

IMG_20170427_224448583.jpg

 

Please excuse the dodgy phone photo.  All we need now is a 3mm version and we'll have the full set!

 

Simon

 

The GAs of NER tenders show a gap between the toolboxes and the front coal plate. In the case of the tender on the model it is about 4 inches (full scale). The puzzling part is that the rear of the tool-boxes are connected by an inverted 'U' shaped structure (complete with beading). I have no idea what function this performs but the GAs of 3038, 3940 and 4125 gallon tenders all have this feature on both the old and new style of tool-boxes. 

 

If anyone out there knows the purpose of this feature please tell me, I would love to know.

 

ArthurK

[Rob Pulham]

The GAs of NER tenders show a gap between the toolboxes and the front coal plate. In the case of the tender on the model it is about 4 inches (full scale). The puzzling part is that the rear of the tool-boxes are connected by an inverted 'U' shaped structure (complete with beading). I have no idea what function this performs but the GAs of 3038, 3940 and 4125 gallon tenders all have this feature on both the old and new style of tool-boxes. 

 

If anyone out there knows the purpose of this feature please tell me, I would love to know.

 

ArthurK

 

Hi Arthur,

 

When you say inverted U do you mean inverted as in a letter 'n' or on one side like [? - sorry I am struggling with the limitations of the keyboard.

 

if as I suspect that it's the n is the beading at the top or along the bottom?

 

Not that I am going to add it but I am just curious.

[ArthurK]

Hi Arthur,

 

When you say inverted U do you mean inverted as in a letter 'n' or on one side like [? - sorry I am struggling with the limitations of the keyboard.

 

if as I suspect that it's the n is the beading at the top or along the bottom?

 

Not that I am going to add it but I am just curious.

 

Hi Rob

 

Don't ask me why but in the case  of the 4125 self trimming tender the toolboxes were connected by a plate 1' 4 wide and 1' 2" high. The central 6" (the distance between the boxes) was extended upwards to a height of 1' 8" with semicircular top. This latter was edged with beading on the front.

 

Contrary to my comments above the toolboxes on the 3940 tender were joined with a similar plate of the same height but as the distance between the boxes was 1' 2" it had an elliptical top. Being  an early drawing (Dec 1906 for the T1) it lacks the full width coal plate at the front, I an not sure when that was added.

 

ArthurK

Edited May 4, 2017 by ArthurK

[Rob Pulham]

Brilliant,  thanks Arthur,

 

Now it makes perfect sense,  I was struggling to work out where the beading might be but I was imagining an extended half cylinder running crossways between the rear or the toolboxes - think a short length of very deep gutter with a curved bottom, upturned so that the bottom of the curve was uppermost...

[65179]

The GAs of NER tenders show a gap between the toolboxes and the front coal plate. In the case of the tender on the model it is about 4 inches (full scale). The puzzling part is that the rear of the tool-boxes are connected by an inverted 'U' shaped structure (complete with beading). I have no idea what function this performs but the GAs of 3038, 3940 and 4125 gallon tenders all have this feature on both the old and new style of tool-boxes. 

 

 

Thanks Arthur that's really helpful.

 

Simon

[Rob Pulham]

Due to having a lot on at work I haven't been able to get back to the B16 until Sunday afternoon and yesterday.

 

Still good progress has been made since then with most of the tender detailing cracked. I found that the rear tender flare overlay wasn't on straight to that had to come off and be straightened.

 

The coal space is still loose until I get the brake/water scoop standards in place - I figure it will be easier to drill the floor if it lifts out.

 

 

Note the longer hand rail at the front of the tender. This seems to have been a feature of a few of the B16 tenders and thankfully you can make it out on the one photo of 61450 that I have found to date.

 

 

The small steps were a bit of a fiddle but worth the effort I think.

 

 

[Rob Pulham]

This week has been a good one at the bench seeing the tender almost complete.

 

 

 

 

 

The brake/water scoop standards rotate and you now need to unscrew them to get the chassis from the body.

 

When refitting the chassis during testing the cranks on the bottom of the shafts of the standards I realised that the brake rods were catching on the outer frame and had held one end of the chassi from fitting flat to the underside of the body. There is a plate with a slot in it in which two slots in the front ends of the inner chassis engage this was about 1.5 too high. To cure it I adjusted the offending brake spreaders and the rods inwards and then with the chassis upside down and engaged in the slots I used the microflame to run around the etches of the plate while pressing on the underside of the chassis with a block of wood. After a few moments the plate eased slowly downwards into the correct position and when the solder set again it was as it should have been.

 

 

As far as I can tell there is just the vacuum pipe and the axleboxes/spring castings to fit. I may also make the central 'buffer' from styrene but I will see how it goes when I test the running to see if it needs it.

 

Next it's on to detailing the chassis before tackling the body details.

[Rob Pulham]

With the tender virtually complete my return from Doncaster saw a start made on detailing the loco chassis. I add the springs to the drivers and then looked at the brake gear. 

The instructions are along the lines of fit parts.... with a couple of build photos to assist with the general positioning.

 

Thankfully looking at prototype pictures helped answer most questions. the first being how the hanger mounts fit

There is a better view in Yeadon but I found this and it saved me scanning the book.

 

 

As with some older kits, the forks in the etches for the rods connecting the brake spreaders are a little over etched so needed bushing.

 

 

 

By accident or design some scrap from the chassis etches folded over the spreader was just the right thickness to fill the gap.

 

 

They just need soldering together once fitted.

[mikemeg]

 

 

 

Thankfully looking at prototype pictures helped answer most questions. the first being how the hanger mounts fit

There is a better view in Yeadon but I found this and it saved me scanning the book.

 

 

As with some older kits, the forks in the etches for the rods connecting the brake spreaders are a little over etched so needed bushing.

 

Rob,

 

That looks vaguely familiar. I used that photo for exactly the same purpose. And the 4mm forks on the brake linkage also needed adjusting.

 

Regards

 

Mike

Edited June 6, 2017 by mikemeg

[JeffP]

That last mod looks prototypical.

[mikemeg]

Rob,

 

A word of caution based on the experience with the 4 mm version of this kit. The coupled wheelbase of the B16 is 6' 9" + 6' 9" which should also be the distances between the bottom journals of the brake hangars. When I checked the brake linkage on the 4 mm version, the front portion - the portion with the two linkage rods - was spaced correctly at 6' 9" (27 mm in 4 mm) which would equate to 47.25 mm in 7 mm.

 

However as etched, the single rod between the middle and rear brake stretchers assembled to 28.25 mm distance (49.44 mm in 7mm). This was corrected by filing a slot from the edge of the centre of the stretcher to the hole in  the centre of the stretcher, thus allowing the stretcher to 'travel' another 1.25 mm aong the slot in the linkage rod, and reduce the spacing to the required 27mm.

 

When assembling any compensated brake linkage, I always draw out the geometry and spacing, to scale, on a piece of card. This is then used to check the actual linkage spacing and to assemble the linkage. This is how this discrepancy was found.

 

I don't know if this error is propogated to the 7 mm version but worth checking.

 

Otherwise the brakes will hang at different angles, and at a different spacing from the wheel tyre, even touching the wheel tyres, on the rear set of drivers.

 

Also, according to the Isinglass drawing, the rear rod and the bracket from the brake trunnion are located off centre i.e. they are not located under the centre line of the loco. If this rear rod is so fixed, centrally, then it very successfully impedes the fitting of the rear body/chassis fixing bolt!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited June 7, 2017 by mikemeg

[Rob Pulham]

Thanks for the heads up Mike,

 

I had planned to assemble it all loosely before soldering anything together which should have hopefully picked out such a discrepancy but having the measurements will certainly take the guess work out of it.

[Rob Pulham]

A slight diversion from work on the chassis has had me looking at the oil boxes that are quite prominent on the sides of the frames above the footplate.

 

Although I have some castings they are too long and wouldn't cut down very well so I decided to have a bash at making some from scratch.

 

I measured the length of three together and marked it off on a length of square bar and then marked a line 1mm from the top, along what will be the front edge.  Next I filed the marked section down to the line at the front while maintaining the full height at the back. - To give me a sloping top. 

 

A strip of scrap etch to form a lid and another length with two rivets punched in either end forms the mounting bracket.

 

Before cutting each individual oil box off the bar I drilled holes for the pipes in the bottom and then added some 08mm OD tube and length of fine brass beading wire to represent the oil pipes. Three down three more to make for the other side but at least two of them don't need the tube/pipes fitted because they sit on the splasher top.