Smart Meter = smart move?

[APOLLO]

Hayfield - That's pretty much the same as EDF's new (after April) Standard variable tariffs. Slight variations dependant on location (NW/NE/etc).  All are based on the price cap coming in April till September.

 

Legalised theft (the standing charge bit)

 

God help us all after September.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BernardTPM]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

Electric, the big shock is the rise in the standard charge

 

Was 20.0132p per day to 37.653p a massive 56.8% rise, 13.64p per day but £49.78pa

 

Standing charges will cost me £62 extra over the next year, to me this is a bit unfair on the low users (who may well be those who can least afford it) rather than those who use the most gas

 

They project that my electric bill will increase by £303 this year £50 being the standing charge

As I've said, this is my biggest gripe. At 52.499p per day for the electric, that's an increase of over 88% over the current charge. You've got off lightly.

[AndrueC]

Although I don't have any money worries it strikes home when your supplier notifies you of a change to your direct debit and it more than doubles.

 

"You’re currently paying £67 a month for your energy. To cover your usage, we believe this needs to increase to £149 a month. This amount is based on your account balance on 4th March 2022 and may change, depending on your future bills and payments."

 

Well within my reach but still more than enough to make me start reviewing my usage. Unfortunately I've always been sensible about energy usage so there's not much I can do that won't adversely impact my life.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

Hayfield - That's pretty much the same as EDF's new (after April) Standard variable tariffs. Slight variations dependant on location (NW/NE/etc).  All are based on the price cap coming in April till September.

 

Legalised theft (the standing charge bit)

 

God help us all after September.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have been on the standard capped tariff for the past 6 months which as we all know is well below the market, it has to be paid for. Perhaps when these charges are so high like the rates we should be informed where the money is both fore and where it goes. Clearly we have to pay for the cost of providing the network infrastructure, but how can that increase by so much ? We must be paying for other things

 

52 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

As I've said, this is my biggest gripe. At 52.499p per day for the electric, that's an increase of over 88% over the current charge. You've got off lightly.

 

Firstly I should have changed suppliers years ago, and against all the other big boys Octopus seems to regular come out on top when Which compares them

 

42 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

Although I don't have any money worries it strikes home when your supplier notifies you of a change to your direct debit and it more than doubles.

 

"You’re currently paying £67 a month for your energy. To cover your usage, we believe this needs to increase to £149 a month. This amount is based on your account balance on 4th March 2022 and may change, depending on your future bills and payments."

 

Well within my reach but still more than enough to make me start reviewing my usage. Unfortunately I've always been sensible about energy usage so there's not much I can do that won't adversely impact my life.

 

Like you its a cost our income can absorb, as of yet Octopus has not asked us to increase our payments, certainly our payments have not changed since British Gas set them 18 mths ago, plus we built up a reasonable cash buffer over last summer and we both transferred this over, made an extra payment in error (due to British Gas's way of including money which they had not received on to the statement) and a £50 credit for recommending my daughter (she also got £50). Plus my solar panels will now kick in saving me a few £'s

 

I do feel sorry for those who have to be very careful with their budget, at worst we could be less extravagant with our use of energy. Lets hope things will settle down a bit soon The worlds economy cannot flourish with these high oil rates, 

[Vistisen]

On 01/03/2022 at 18:07, cctransuk said:

 

Perhaps we have to accept that fuel is going to be more expensive in future, whilst taking financial measures to protect those least able to afford it?

 

Expensive fuel will concentrate minds on how to reduce our consumption - exactly what we need at this time and not a message easily conveyed to the 'live today' sector!

 

CJI.

As someone who emigrated fra the UK in the late 1980's I am always surprised by just how badly insulated houses are when I come back to visit. In 2001, we bought a large dilapadated farmhouse in the middle of Jutland. We spent about £5,000 pounds insulating the roof and putting new skylight windows in the roof to state of the art standards back then. This halved the amount we spent on heating form the first year we lived there to the second. We have a wood pellet burner and reduced the numer of tons of pellets burned from about 15 to about 7 a year. That is a yearly saving of at current prices £1500 a year so it paid for its self in under 4 years. and now 20 + years we have years later we have saved about £40,000.  Now things have moved on, and we have just replaced 18 windows and 3 doors with the new 'state of the art' equivelents and are in the middle of putting solar cells up in one of our fields. this should mean that energy costs ( heating and electricity) for a large 6 bedroom house should hopefully be about £1500 a year at current prices.  The way to save money is not to demand cheaper energy, but to use less energy. Good for both the pocket and the planet.

 

As you can see here: https://www.tempohousing.org.uk/what-are-the-danish-2020-regulations/ A house built today must have a 75% saving in energy consumption compared to a house from 2006.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Vistisen

[SHMD]

I really really like this...

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-60617154

 

 

Kev.

[hayfield]

27 minutes ago, Vistisen said:

As someone who emigrated fra the UK in the late 1980's I am always surprised by just how badly insulated houses are when I come back to visit. In 2001, we bought a large dilapadated farmhouse in the middle of Jutland. We spent about £5,000 pounds insulating the roof and putting new skylight windows in the roof to state of the art standards back then. This halved the amount we spent on heating form the first year we lived there to the second. We have a wood pellet burner and reduced the numer of tons of pellets burned from about 15 to about 7 a year. That is a yearly saving of at current prices £1500 a year so it paid for its self in under 4 years. and now 20 + years we have years later we have saved about £40,000.  Now things have moved on, and we have just replaced 18 windows and 3 doors with the new 'state of the art' equivelents and are in the middle of putting solar cells up in one of our fields. this should mean that energy costs ( heating and electricity) for a large 6 bedroom house should hopefully be about £1500 a year at current prices.  The way to save money is not to demand cheaper energy, but to use less energy. Good for both the pocket and the planet.

 

As you can see here: https://www.tempohousing.org.uk/what-are-the-danish-2020-regulations/ A house built today must have a 75% saving in energy consumption compared to a house from 2006.

 

 

My own view is that in the UK there has been a lot of apathy over the years regarding insulating houses and energy saving, now its coming home to roost in a big way

 

Probably 20 years ago I decided to renew the insulation in the loft owing to the granules used either shrinking or insufficient were used, the bags I bought from the DIY shop were quite inexpensive but carried a message they were heavily subsidised by the energy companies.

 

Quite a few years ago the government brought in a law that houses for sale must have a written energy efficiency report when the property was put up for sale, the public hated it and I have an idea it was diluted. Even now few buyers worry about these reports as other features were perceived more important

 

10 years ago the government introduced heavily discounted insulating schemes, I had my loft insulation topped up to the then standards for £50, at the same time the cavities in the walls were filled again for £50. The house I bought 6 years ago thankfully had both done at the same time. But I doubt if it scratched the surface

 

If I was buying a house now I would look much further into how energy efficient the house is, my offer would be based on its value to me minus what it would cost to bring it up to standard. Something I would never have considered before. As I have said earlier last autumn I had solar panels installed, it was based on energy costs last spring on my financial decision, since then we have had 2 rate cap rises, with a third possible in 6 months,

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Vistisen said:

As someone who emigrated fra the UK in the late 1980's I am always surprised by just how badly insulated houses are when I come back to visit. In 2001, we bought a large dilapadated farmhouse in the middle of Jutland. We spent about £5,000 pounds insulating the roof and putting new skylight windows in the roof to state of the art standards back then. This halved the amount we spent on heating form the first year we lived there to the second. We have a wood pellet burner and reduced the numer of tons of pellets burned from about 15 to about 7 a year. That is a yearly saving of at current prices £1500 a year so it paid for its self in under 4 years. and now 20 + years we have years later we have saved about £40,000.  Now things have moved on, and we have just replaced 18 windows and 3 doors with the new 'state of the art' equivelents and are in the middle of putting solar cells up in one of our fields. this should mean that energy costs ( heating and electricity) for a large 6 bedroom house should hopefully be about £1500 a year at current prices.  The way to save money is not to demand cheaper energy, but to use less energy. Good for both the pocket and the planet.

 

As you can see here: https://www.tempohousing.org.uk/what-are-the-danish-2020-regulations/ A house built today must have a 75% saving in energy consumption compared to a house from 2006.

 

Another thing we can do is use smarter gadgets

 

Soon after we moved in the thermostat which controls the boiler broke down. The previous owner had a British Gas service plan so I phoned them, they gave me a rough estimate and an idea of timescale. My son in law had been researching smart thermostats as he and my daughter worked shifts and had no regular pattern of being at home. He settled on a system made by Tado which immediately reduced his gas bill

 

Well I told him what happened and after a chat I phoned them up, the thermostat was cheaper than a standard British Gas supplied basic thermostat, secondly would arrive in 2 days for self fitting. When it arrived it was a simple installation, it works on a basis it shuts down when no one is at home, it also has many other features designed to save money (detects open doors/windows is one, climate control is another). Simply you set the normal parameters, and has many times more options than a standard unit, but then it detects if you are at home, if you are not then it will stay dormant until its needed.  I think smart gadgets will become more common place 

[AndrueC]

34 minutes ago, hayfield said:

but then it detects if you are at home, if you are not then it will stay dormant until its needed.  I think smart gadgets will become more common place 

The problem with that is the inherent latency in the system. I don't want my heating to come on when I get home. That would mean arriving to a cold house and in the depths of winter if I've been out of the house all day it will only be up to comfort levels about when I'm going to bed anyway.

 

My house isn't badly insulated (early 90s construction and I've added cavity wall and loft insulation, fully double glazed) but on a cold winter's day it can only raise the internal temperature by 2 degrees C per hour. I have a smart(ish) thermostat that can decide when to start in order to get the temperature where I want it at a particular time. In the past I've used a digital sensor to track the temperature over the year when I've asked for 19.5C by 7am and the thermostat varies the start time from 0645 (late spring) to 3am (cold and windy winter's night).

 

Thankfully I work from home now and will until I retire but if you're out at work all day most houses need to restart the heating at least an hour, maybe two before you actually arrive. Luckily most of us lead predictable lives so a simple 7-day thermostat will suffice. One with optimum start like mine might save a bit of fuel. But clever thermostats that stop and start heating based on whether the premises are occupied or not will only save fuel at the expense of comfort (which may be an acceptable compromise).

Edited March 5, 2022 by AndrueC

[Vistisen]

Just now, AndrueC said:

The problem with that is the inherent latency in the system. I don't want my heating to come on when I get home. That would mean arriving to a cold house and in the depths of winter if I've been out of the house all day it will only be up to comfort levels about when I'm going to bed anyway.

 

My house isn't badly insulated (early 90s construction and I've added cavity wall and loft insulation, fully double glazed) but on a cold winter's day it can only raise the internal temperature by 2 degrees C per hour. I have a smart(ish) thermostat that can decide when to start in order to get the temperature where I want it at a particular time. In the past I've used a digital sensor to track the temperature over the year when I've asked for 19.5C by 7am and the thermostat varies the start time from 0645 (late spring) to 3am (cold and windy winter's night).

My wooden pellet heater has both a calendar where I can set as many start and stops as i wish, the ability to react to weather forecasts and an app so that I can control it from my phone. the solar panels will include a storage battery. And there is apparently an integration to the electricity provider that means we can use solar power in the day. And the batteries in the evening. And if the weather forecast is for cloud. We can partially charge the battery at the cheap night prices. I will believe it when I see it. It all sounds a bit too good to be true. One thing that does concern me is that the max output on the panels will be 9.6 Kw. But the inverter is max 6 kw. What happens to the last 3.6 Kw if there is full sun?

[boxbrownie]

12 minutes ago, Vistisen said:

My wooden pellet heater has both a calendar where I can set as many start and stops as i wish, the ability to react to weather forecasts and an app so that I can control it from my phone. the solar panels will include a storage battery. And there is apparently an integration to the electricity provider that means we can use solar power in the day. And the batteries in the evening. And if the weather forecast is for cloud. We can partially charge the battery at the cheap night prices. I will believe it when I see it. It all sounds a bit too good to be true. One thing that does concern me is that the max output on the panels will be 9.6 Kw. But the inverter is max 6 kw. What happens to the last 3.6 Kw if there is full sun?

What surprised me was our new boiler (system gas boiler) has an external (outside) air temperature sensor and adjusts its responses (I suppose?) and operation according to that.

[AndrueC]

9 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

What surprised me was our new boiler (system gas boiler) has an external (outside) air temperature sensor and adjusts its responses (I suppose?) and operation according to that.

My wall thermostat had that as an option but when I bought it I went for the radio controlled clock module instead. Mind you mine also had a module for telephone control but I don't know how that worked. Honeywell don't offer either for the current product line.

 

I've since read that my thermostat is a bit basic. It bases the delta prediction on what happened in the previous 24 hours rather than monitoring what is actually happening so a sudden cold or warm snap can cause it to start late or early. Can't say I've ever noticed the difference though.

[melmerby]

7 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

What surprised me was our new boiler (system gas boiler) has an external (outside) air temperature sensor and adjusts its responses (I suppose?) and operation according to that.

Not just a frost stat?

My 11yr old Worcester Combi has an external temp sensor that can be put anywhere. It comes on whenever the temp is below a certain figure.

It's in the internal garage which used to be very cold with a shed type side door, basic single glazing & an up an over with huge gaps around it. The boiler used to come on frequently when it was cold outside.

The garage now has a double skin roller shutter with no gaps, a proper uPVC side door and double glazing. It is quite a few degrees warmer and the boiler now rarely comes on when its cold outside.

 

[SamThomas]

4 x adults working variable hours (some unsocial) central heating & hot water on 24/7 & a 25 year old (soon to be replaced) boiler end of terrace.

 

2 x adults regular (& similar working hours) central heating timed*** & hot water on demand, boiler couple of years old, mid terrace (next door).

 

Our bills are something like 10% more consumption wise - small price to pay for the comfort.

 

Also, their insulation if better than ours (& one less external wall).

 

*** more "smart" controls than you can shake a stick at.

[BMS]

What worries me particularly is that we at home use 5x more gas in kwh than electric, in line with most people I believe. The charge for electric kwh is broadly 5 times that for gas kwh so the bill is going up FIVE times before you consider price increases, when we go fully electric.

Also, rhetorical question, Is the cabling in my house, street and area capable of supporting all of this load plus car charging? Boris J has a lot to do to meet his promises, IMHO.

I love the idea of renewables - we've got electric solar which first option powers the house appliances, secondly heats the house, and thirdly any excess heats the hot water up to 70 degrees. Any left over goes into the mains supply- my FIT scheme does not look at actual power supplied to the mains supply - it is assumed to be 50% of generated. We have a GEO display showing electric generated and used, displaying for a range of  info - days, weeks, years and costs for both current and historic ,, Also we have boring old meters - none of this so called Smart stuff.

 

Relying on solar energy feeding a meter backwards is illegal and can result in an assessed bill and charges when discovered.  Guess what my original electric meter did, I remmber watching it count down......

[SamThomas]

12 hours ago, BMS said:

What worries me particularly is that we at home use 5x more gas in kwh than electric, in line with most people I believe. The charge for electric kwh is broadly 5 times that for gas kwh so the bill is going up FIVE times before you consider price increases, when we go fully electric.

Agreed, gas, per kwh is far more cost effective than electric. Personally, I'd only consider an all electric home if the costs were the same as using gas.

[SamThomas]

12 hours ago, BMS said:

Also, rhetorical question, Is the cabling in my house, street and area capable of supporting all of this load plus car charging?

A question I've asked before but no-one seems to want to address the issue, especially those who appear to have been brainwashed into getting rid of fossil fueled vehicles & gas boilers.

The cable into my house is not large enough to power an all electric home (let alone with a possible EV charge point). A National Grid engineer told me that my house is on the last leg of a decades old cable that is "over its limit" as is the substation that feeds it & the HV cable that feeds that.

The voltage fluctuation is that bad I have to use a UPS/line conditioner in my office.

 

Probably explains the jump in standing charges for electricity - the money to upgrade the grid will have to come from somewhere.

[hayfield]

18 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

What surprised me was our new boiler (system gas boiler) has an external (outside) air temperature sensor and adjusts its responses (I suppose?) and operation according to that.

 

Our thermostat software takes into consideration what's happening with the weather, if its sunny the reaction time is much slower, than if its cold dark and damp. For us its a good Idea as we had a large rear extension build with large areas of glass, when the sun shines in autumn, winter and spring the room heats up quickly when the sun shines (its south facing), strangely enough in summer when its hot and sunny the sun in the hottest parts of the day is very high and I guess for heating purposes at the wrong angle making the room a very pleasant temperature. There are various other heat saving features 

 

But the drive is to have more efficient appliances being eco friendly

 

I remember the old central heating boiler kept the kitchen warm without the need for any radiators. Now they radiate little heat and the kitchen area needs radiators

 

Like cars homes of the future will be more eco friendly and high tech

[boxbrownie]

19 hours ago, melmerby said:

Not just a frost stat?

My 11yr old Worcester Combi has an external temp sensor that can be put anywhere. It comes on whenever the temp is below a certain figure.

It's in the internal garage which used to be very cold with a shed type side door, basic single glazing & an up an over with huge gaps around it. The boiler used to come on frequently when it was cold outside.

The garage now has a double skin roller shutter with no gaps, a proper uPVC side door and double glazing. It is quite a few degrees warmer and the boiler now rarely comes on when its cold outside.

 

No, it specifically mentions about how the boiler adjusts it output depending upon the outside ambient temperature.

It also mentioned how it can be converted (by jetting and control sensors according to the installer) for hydrogen rich gas mixtures! Looking to the future I guess?

 

The frost stat is on the room thermostat, a separate setting.

Edited March 6, 2022 by boxbrownie

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, SamThomas said:

A question I've asked before but no-one seems to want to address the issue, especially those who appear to have been brainwashed into getting rid of fossil fueled vehicles & gas boilers.

The cable into my house is not large enough to power an all electric home (let alone with a possible EV charge point). A National Grid engineer told me that my house is on the last leg of a decades old cable that is "over its limit" as is the substation that feeds it & the HV cable that feeds that.

The voltage fluctuation is that bad I have to use a UPS/line conditioner in my office.

 

Probably explains the jump in standing charges for electricity - the money to upgrade the grid will have to come from somewhere.

What is the rating on your main (supplier) fuse? It should be at least 60 amp, and usually will be changed for a 80/100  amp fuse by the supplier at no cost.

[SamThomas]

2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

What is the rating on your main (supplier) fuse? It should be at least 60 amp, and usually will be changed for a 80/100  amp fuse by the supplier at no cost.

The fuse is a 100amp - the cable is a 7/.044 - equivelent to 6mm approx.

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

The fuse is a 100amp - the cable is a 7/.044 - equivelent to 6mm approx.

If it’s a 100 amp fuse the supply to it must be good enough for that load, which will be fine for EVSE installation as anything 80 amps and above is fine.

I cannot see the supplier fitting a fuse at which at full load would blow/trip their own supply.

 

Just be aware that some of the fuse holders will have 100 amps on the sticker but may be fitted with a lower fuse rating!

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

The fuse is a 100amp - the cable is a 7/.044 - equivelent to 6mm approx.

If you need to exceed 100A for any length of time, I dread to think what your bill's going to be.

 

As for how much power the grid is going to have to supply through your substation, it will depend on what your neighbours are going to be using.  I assume like most places these days, there's quite a few houses with solar panels on the roof, who should be drawing less power (during the day) from the network, offsetting to some degree those who are simply drawing everything from the grid.  It may well be that there is a change in when the peak demand occurs if a lot of folk are drawing more power at night and less during the day - that is one of the justifications for pricing by time of day.  That in turn could alter the economics of having some sort of battery storage system, whether to save power you've generated yourself or power you buy from the grid

 

As I've said before, I don't want a smart meter - but the time will come when I don't have the option and the economics will justify it.  What I really object to is the false publicity claiming that a smart meter will save me money now. 

I don't need the same sort of hassle that I had when Affinity Water tried to install a water meter and kept getting it wrong and sending me massive bills - I still don't have one because the idiots kept putting it in the wrong pipe.

My gas boiler must be 25 years old, so it's not a modern efficient one - but at least it still works - what they 've been installing reently seem to pack up within 10 years.  Yes, we all need to move off gas altogether but I don't want to replace it with something unreliable that's going to need replacing again before very long.

Call me a Luddite if you like, but at my time of life and with a heart condition and diabetes, and having had kidney cancer, why would I incur great capital expenditure and put up with the disruption of having things changed if I'm statistically unlikely to see payback?

[boxbrownie]

Fit a Vaillant it comes with a 10 year warranty.

 

There might be others that do as well, we changed our 28 year old boiler which had been in the house from new (it also was a Vaillant) and the first year it seemed to have saved us about 30% on gas usage.

[SamThomas]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

If it’s a 100 amp fuse the supply to it must be good enough for that load, which will be fine for EVSE installation as anything 80 amps and above is fine.

I cannot see the supplier fitting a fuse at which at full load would blow/trip their own supply.

 

Just be aware that some of the fuse holders will have 100 amps on the sticker but may be fitted with a lower fuse rating!

Being an electrical engineer by main profession I am well aware of the common practice of the supply authorities main fuses being far in excess of the cable capacity.

When the meter was changed a few years ago I noticed that the fuse was 100a rating.

A 100a fuse will not blow the cable but will cause it to run warm. Couple that to all the other houses on that "leg" & you can see why my voltage goes up & down.