Smart Meter = smart move?

[hayfield]

52 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I remember when everybody heated their houses with coal fires.  Although this place is later than that and doesn't have a chimney, I own it, so I had to pay for the double glazing as there were no government schemes available.  I did get a subsidy for cavity wall insulation (and a few  free light bulbs!), but I'll have to pay if I decide to replace my ancient but reliable gas boiler with something else which although more efficient will still be expensive to run but probably less reliable.  If I do replace with gas, that could become unavailable in Europe within the life of a new boiler (or even within the life of the current government); electric or oil heating costs a lot more per therm, I don't have the land for ground sourced heating,  I'm unimpressed by air sourced heat pumps and solar panels aren't a great idea on a north facing roof.

 

I learned to drive a petrol engined car, but now I'm using a diesel which the politicians and environmentalists encouraged at the time.  Now they want me to drive an EV, but the forward economics are looking less attractive with the way the world is generating power.  Global politics and the economics of energy keep changing, but at the moment it looks like I have to wait for somebody to invent a better technology.  Domestic nuclear reactors anybody?

 

As a child I remember we had no heating up stairs, there were fire places but they were never uses. Every morning we had to get up clean out the fire then light a new one.

 

I remember us getting our first gas fire, heaven to switch it on and get instant heat

 

When I got married be brought a terraced house opposite my parents, no central heating, two gas fires down stairs and I guess we had an electric heater in my daughters bedroom. She was 7 when we got our first house with central heating, how things change and we become less hardy.

 

I am sold on solar panels, at this time of year between 9am & 5pm we are usually selling electricity not buying it if its sunny. in 10 years time this will be far more common than today. Pity we can't drill for gas . And all new cars will be electric

[boxbrownie]

5 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

Doors are always a bu@@er, sausage-dog draught excluders are a great help too!

 

Sure are, I didn’t completely realise just how much as in our last house we had double glazing and all new modern windows installed when we had two large extensions made but we didn’t do the front door (or back) as it was fairly modern and  seemed to work well at sealing drafts but after we still had still a definite cold area in the hall, our new house…well same age as previously but new to us…..we had again all new modern windows but this time both front and back doors were replaced by sealed locking composite doors and the difference when standing in their vicinity is dramatic.

Edited March 10, 2022 by boxbrownie

[Reorte]

5 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Sure are, I didn’t completely realise just how much as in our last house we had double glazing and all new modern windows installed when we had two large extensions made but we didn’t do the front door (or back) as it was fairly modern and  seemed to work well at sealing drafts but after we still had still a definite cold area in the hall, our new house…well same age as previously but new to us…..we had again all new modern windows but this time both front and back doors were replaced by sealed locking composite doors and the difference when standing in their vicinity is dramatic.

Well I'd rather be cold than replace the wooden front door with some modern plastic thing. In any case most of the draughts now appear to come through the cat flap hacked through the modern back door (even though it goes in to a porch rather than straight outside). I'll get a curtain for that one too at some point though.

 

Wouldn't mind seeing if I could at least fill in the letter box and find some alternative to that though.

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I remember when everybody heated their houses with coal fires.  Although this place is later than that and doesn't have a chimney, I own it, so I had to pay for the double glazing as there were no government schemes available.  I did get a subsidy for cavity wall insulation (and a few  free light bulbs!), but I'll have to pay if I decide to replace my ancient but reliable gas boiler with something else which although more efficient will still be expensive to run but probably less reliable.  If I do replace with gas, that could become unavailable in Europe within the life of a new boiler (or even within the life of the current government); electric or oil heating costs a lot more per therm, I don't have the land for ground sourced heating,  I'm unimpressed by air sourced heat pumps and solar panels aren't a great idea on a north facing roof.

 

I learned to drive a petrol engined car, but now I'm using a diesel which the politicians and environmentalists encouraged at the time.  Now they want me to drive an EV, but the forward economics are looking less attractive with the way the world is generating power.  Global politics and the economics of energy keep changing, but at the moment it looks like I have to wait for somebody to invent a better technology.  Domestic nuclear reactors anybody?

Makes your head spin eh? 

[boxbrownie]

34 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Well I'd rather be cold than replace the wooden front door with some modern plastic thing.

Your choice…..

 

I thought that until I saw some of the better ones, although cost is eye watering for a front/back door.

[hayfield]

There was a thing on TV about smart meters, I did not bother to listen to it that much, but it was explaining the benefits

 

But I thought back to what it was like

 

Forget the meters we have now, but as a child every house had coin operated gas and electric meters, these were the days when employees were paid weekly and in cash, also bank accounts were used by the better off

 

As a child I remember feeding both the gas and electric meters, it was either the gas man or the electric man (no meter readers in those days) who read the meters, emptied the cash, made a calculation and gave back the surplus funds. The benefit was it was a sort of savings, the negative was that everyone made sure there was change for the meters close by all the time

 

Eventually these prepaid meters were changed for meters that recorded use only, jars in the cupboard were used to save up for the quarterly bills and I think a trip to either the gas or electric board shop was needed every quarter to pay the bills, as bank accounts became more common (my dad was still being paid weekly in cash in the early eighties) the system morphed into the choices we now have. Initially my mum missed the return of money from the meter med, despite the benefit of not having to ensure enough change was always available to feed the meters

 

Today its a bit like we are taking the next step, machines can do the monitoring for us without the need to regulars have read or read the meters ourselves. In theory the days of getting a large shock of a very big bill should be a thing of the past, how you pay is irrelevant or a totally different topic. Its easier for all concerned and as discounts and or better deals being available to smart meter users shows the benefits in cost savings are being shared.

 

In my life time the energy industry has moved on from coin operated meters to meters that send data every 15 mins to the company. Whether you like it or no it is progress, think of what it would be like if we still had coin operated meters !!!  

[2E Sub Shed]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 

In my life time the energy industry has moved on from coin operated meters to meters that send data every 15 mins to the company. 

 

An the next step will be that the electricity distributor will be able to remotely cut your supply off when there is excess demand on a per household basis, so we will all end up drinking tea in the streets registered "at risk" person's house who still has a supply. 

[Michael Hodgson]

21 minutes ago, 2E Sub Shed said:

 

An the next step will be that the electricity distributor will be able to remotely cut your supply off when there is excess demand on a per household basis

That's one of the unadvertised benefits that smart meters already give them

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, 2E Sub Shed said:

 

An the next step will be that the electricity distributor will be able to remotely cut your supply off when there is excess demand on a per household basis, so we will all end up drinking tea in the streets registered "at risk" person's house who still has a supply. 

 

Please show proof this is being thought about, as it sounds scare mongering and fake news. Anyway they can turn off the supply to an area already

[Hroth]

The main problem with most conventional meters is that they're tucked away in a relatively inconvenient spot, discouraging the consumer from keeping an eye on them.  With the current increases in costs, I'll just have to make the effort to look under the stairs and in the cupboard by the front door once a week and keep track of levels of consumption that way. 

 

I feel a spreadsheet coming on!!!

 

As for getting a "smart meter", given the uncertainties about the damn things, I'll stick with my pair of dumbos until they malfunction or are condemned and the supplier WON'T provide replacements.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

Please show proof this is being thought about, as it sounds scare mongering and fake news. Anyway they can turn off the supply to an area already

NOT fake news.  The equipment already has this capability built in. 

It's more a question of whether they are allowed to do so - it is not permitted at present, but the technology supports it. 

 

https://www.resolver.co.uk/rights-guide/smart-meters

 

Take one to bits yourself if you don't believe it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G32NYQpvy8Q

 

[hayfield]

21 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

NOT fake news. 

It's more a question of whether they are allowed to do so - it is not permitted at present, but the technology supports it. 

 

https://www.resolver.co.uk/rights-guide/smart-meters

 

Take one to bits yourself if you don't believe it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G32NYQpvy8Q

 

 

This is the part I was referring to as fake news

 

Regardless of whether you have a smart meter or not, you’re protected by strict regulations against your energy supplier cutting off your energy. Your energy supplier can only cut you off if you haven’t contacted them for 28 days after incurring a debt – and they have to contact you before they cut off your supply. Your supplier has to give you the opportunity to pay off your debt before they disconnect you.

Your energy supplier isn’t allowed to disconnect you during the winter months if you are of pensionable age, have a long-term medical condition, disability, or illness, or are in a vulnerable situation.

You also can’t be disconnected if your debt is owed to a previous supplier, you have been made bankrupt and the debt was incurred before you went bankrupt, or the debt is not for the gas or electricity you have used but for another service or appliance you have bought from your supplier.

 

 

While it is possible for an energy company to cut you off remotely via a smart meter, most have said that they will never do so without an engineer visiting your property.

It is very rare for energy providers to disconnect customers. British Gas had said that it hasn’t disconnected a residential customer in almost eight years.

 

Irrespectively of what meter you have companies have been allowed to cut people off as a last resort. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by hayfield

[Michael Hodgson]

 

Legislation also requires them to cut off power if the supply frequency falls outside a given tolerance of the nominal 50Hz, which it will under overload.

 

When I was working in what was then called the People's Socialist Republic of Romania, the locals had power cuts quite frequently because their supply infrstructure wasn't up to the job.  The trolleybuses, the party offices (also our office for reasons of national prestige) didn't get power cuts.  Such prioirty in load-shedding would also happen here (as it did during the 3-day week under Ted Heath) if we become unduly reliant on electric heating and EVs faster than we provide the network to support it.  Smart meters enable the authorities to do that much more selectively

[melmerby]

I've now had a third e-mail from E.on insisting "It's time to fit your smart meters." "We know you’re busy, but we haven’t heard from you yet about fitting smart meters for you."

(I don't like being pressured over anything and will push back)

 

It will be ignored, like the previous two as insisting rather than asking is not the way to do it.

 

How about some friendly persuasion?: "Would you like to benefit from the advantages a smart meter gives?" "If so contact us to arrange fitting" etc. etc.

Much more polite and less pressuring.

 

 

[trevora]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

E.on insisting "It's time to fit your smart meters."

Last year change to E-on next

from BG with a mk1 meter

they (eon) said they would update it by xmas /nothing happened

E-mailed them the other week and reply says they are doing no smart meters at this time

[Sir TophamHatt]

18 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

NOT fake news.  The equipment already has this capability built in. 

It's more a question of whether they are allowed to do so - it is not permitted at present, but the technology supports it. 

To be fair, he didn't say it was...  just that it sounded like it was.

[Sir TophamHatt]

On 10/03/2022 at 09:46, hayfield said:

I guess the calls on the public purse are many and schemes now have to be more targeted to those in the most need

 

Good info!
I wonder if such schemes were easier / better back then (sorry if that makes you feel old!).

 

But another question is who are most in need?

Middle earners are always overlooked as they earn too much for any credits, but not enough to be able to insulate their houses or whatever the case may be.  I wonder how many people fall from middle-earning into poverty.  I guess that's a topic for another thread though.

 

 

So far, E.on haven't pushed the smart meter on me as yet (despite my tariff requiring one).  I thought they'd message as soon as to get me booked in.

They've messaged every few weeks saying I need to get booked in (urgently!) but will continue to put them off for a while.

[hayfield]

7 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

 

Good info!
I wonder if such schemes were easier / better back then (sorry if that makes you feel old!).

 

But another question is who are most in need?

Middle earners are always overlooked as they earn too much for any credits, but not enough to be able to insulate their houses or whatever the case may be.  I wonder how many people fall from middle-earning into poverty.  I guess that's a topic for another thread though.

 

 

So far, E.on haven't pushed the smart meter on me as yet (despite my tariff requiring one).  I thought they'd message as soon as to get me booked in.

They've messaged every few weeks saying I need to get booked in (urgently!) but will continue to put them off for a while.

 

At the end of the day the government spend our money and if we want them to spend more, it will cost us more

 

Sadly it looks like the standing charges on both gas and electric are becoming more of a tax, than the cost of maintaining the supply network. It also affects the less well off than others.

 

Middle earners and their spending power is another topic altogether, in theory they should be comfortable financially. In practice its a totally different story.

[2mmMark]

On 10/03/2022 at 18:02, boxbrownie said:

Your choice…..

 

I thought that until I saw some of the better ones, although cost is eye watering for a front/back door.

There is a massive markup on doors & glazing.  We were fortunate to get some doors & glazing done at trade prices and the savings over retail were amazing!

[boxbrownie]

4 hours ago, 2mmMark said:

There is a massive markup on doors & glazing.  We were fortunate to get some doors & glazing done at trade prices and the savings over retail were amazing!

Indeed they are, and we too managed a good deal because one of our neighbours owns a very well regarded DG/Building company here, it still wasn’t cheap but at about 25% list price it was very welcome.

 

We we’re luck as without him we wouldn’t have known about “the better” makes/versions of these doors.

Edited March 12, 2022 by boxbrownie

[AndrueC]

On 11/03/2022 at 11:49, 2E Sub Shed said:

 

An the next step will be that the electricity distributor will be able to remotely cut your supply off when there is excess demand on a per household basis, so we will all end up drinking tea in the streets registered "at risk" person's house who still has a supply. 

Highly unlikely. Energy companies don't make any money from us if they don't supply us with fuel.

 

Cutting off the supply will remain the very last thing they will do. They don't want to do it. The government doesn't want them to do it. It will only happen if there is a serious crisis in the energy industry when the alternative is a collapse in the grid supply. We are a long way from that both government and industry will continue to do everything they can to avoid that scenario.

Edited March 12, 2022 by AndrueC

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 minute ago, AndrueC said:

Highly unlikely. Yet again we see someone falling into the trap of thinking that the energy companies begrudge supplying us. Energy companies don't make any money from us if they don't supply us with fuel.

 

Cutting off the supply will remain the very last thing they will do. They don't want to do it. The government doesn't want them to do it. It will only happen if there is a serious crisis in the energy industry when the alternative is a collapse in the grid supply. We are a long way from that both government and industry will continue to do everything they can to avoid that scenario.

 

Percentage wise, a small number, but there's not a lot of money to be made supplying customers who don't pay their bills.

 

Mike.

[AndrueC]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

Percentage wise, a small number, but there's not a lot of money to be made supplying customers who don't pay their bills.

 

Mike.

Having a dumb meter doesn't make it any less likely that non-payers will be cut off. Suppliers will continue to do what they do now - convert the customer to PAYG. Only it'll be cheaper for them because they won't have to send someone out to replace the meter so that's a net gain. They only resort to cutting people off in extreme cases and to do so they have to go through an extensive legal process.

 

But let me get this straight - you're arguing that being able to cut off non-paying customers is a disadvantage of smart meters? Maybe you're happy to pay for freeloaders through your bill but I'm not. If someone really can't be persuaded or cajoled into paying for the fuel they use then they should be cut off. And in such cases, the quicker it can be done and the less it costs to do so the better.

[Torper]

When a smart meter is fitted, I assume that it goes into the same place that the old meter occupied.  In our house the (old) meter is in an out-of-the-way place where we dont look at it very often (perhaps once every couple of months to take readings) and the so-called advantage of "saving" electricity by frequntly checking up on usage would therefore seem to be lost.

 

DT

[30801]

7 hours ago, Torper said:

When a smart meter is fitted, I assume that it goes into the same place that the old meter occupied.  In our house the (old) meter is in an out-of-the-way place where we dont look at it very often (perhaps once every couple of months to take readings) and the so-called advantage of "saving" electricity by frequntly checking up on usage would therefore seem to be lost.

 

They come with a remote display you can place somewhere convenient.