Smart Meter = smart move?

[SamThomas]

I really don't understand people banging on about the saving of not having meter readers being a real benefit of having a "smart" meter, especially as so many on here have reported their virual extintion.

The only times many of us without "smart" meters see a meter reader is when the meters have to be manually read by law which is, AFAIK every 2-years & that applies to "smart" meters too.

 

Another so called "benefit" is the DD/budget system - you hear too many horror stories of people trying to get their money returned when changing suppliers or having their usage revised.

[AndrueC]

49 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

Another so called "benefit" is the DD/budget system - you hear too many horror stories of people trying to get their money returned when changing suppliers or having their usage revised.

I've never paid bills in any way other than by DD and in ~thirty years have never had a problem let alone needed to claim it back. I even have my credit cards set up to clear the balance in full by DD every month. I've never had a problem changing suppliers either and I'm not aware of a significant number of problems with DD. My understanding is that they have proven to be one of the safest and easiest ways to pay bills.

 

DDs don't vary by much month to month normally (credit cards excepted) so it's just a matter of ensuring you have the funds in you account. You always get notified of a DD change - eg; the email I got last week - so you adjust your budget accordingly. Where possible I move all my DDs to the first week of the month so that they are covered by my salary payment.

 

As long as you're living within your means I see no reason to pay bills other than by DD.

Edited March 7, 2022 by AndrueC

[SamThomas]

19 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

I've never paid bills in any way other than by DD and in ~thirty years have never had a problem let alone needed to claim it back. I even have my credit cards set up to clear the balance in full by DD every month. I've never had a problem changing suppliers either and I'm not aware of a significant number of problems with DD. My understanding is that they have proven to be one of the safest and easiest ways to pay bills.

 

DDs don't vary by much month to month normally (credit cards excepted) so it's just a matter of ensuring you have the funds in you account. You always get notified of a DD change - eg; the email I got last week - so you adjust your budget accordingly. Where possible I move all my DDs to the first week of the month so that they are covered by my salary payment.

 

As long as you're living within your means I see no reason to pay bills other than by DD.

All I can say regarding your DD's Andrew is that's fair enough.

 

My experience is the opposite so even when it costs me a little more I avoid them - remaining in control is far more important to me than saving a littlr money.

 

You see having a choice is important - you choose your way & I'll choose mine.

 

Oh, & BTW I do live within my means & resent any inference that I do not.

[Nick C]

What's a meter reader? I've not seen one for years - and we're not on smart meters...

[AndrueC]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

Oh, & BTW I do live within my means & resent any inference that I do not.

No such inference was intended, it was just a general comment. Are you always this sensitive?

[hayfield]

13 hours ago, SamThomas said:

I really don't understand people banging on about the saving of not having meter readers being a real benefit of having a "smart" meter, especially as so many on here have reported their virual extintion.

The only times many of us without "smart" meters see a meter reader is when the meters have to be manually read by law which is, AFAIK every 2-years & that applies to "smart" meters too.

 

Another so called "benefit" is the DD/budget system - you hear too many horror stories of people trying to get their money returned when changing suppliers or having their usage revised.

 

From the guardian article on an earlier link (paying by DDI is cheaper)  You did earlier ask for evidence

 

British Gas has told customers its standing charges for electricity will be 45p for those with a direct debit, 50p for prepayment meters and 51p for cash and cheque. Gas standing charges will be 27p, 37p and 32p respectively. 

 

12 hours ago, AndrueC said:

I've never paid bills in any way other than by DD and in ~thirty years have never had a problem let alone needed to claim it back. I even have my credit cards set up to clear the balance in full by DD every month. I've never had a problem changing suppliers either and I'm not aware of a significant number of problems with DD. My understanding is that they have proven to be one of the safest and easiest ways to pay bills.

 

DDs don't vary by much month to month normally (credit cards excepted) so it's just a matter of ensuring you have the funds in you account. You always get notified of a DD change - eg; the email I got last week - so you adjust your budget accordingly. Where possible I move all my DDs to the first week of the month so that they are covered by my salary payment.

 

As long as you're living within your means I see no reason to pay bills other than by DD.

 

To be fair to SamThomas things do sometimes go wrong with DDI's as they do with every other payment system, and there are myths that the account holder loses control over payments. (my own bank told me that I could not cancel a DDI, I quickly put the agent into their place and the DDI was instantly cancelled) 

 

Like almost everyone else I have quite a few DDI's working as they should on my bank accounts every month. For me having made regular DDI payments to cover my annual energy use has to date cushioned me from the recent rises, my smart meter (along with paying monthly) has given me a trouble free way of ensuring I will not have any nasty surprises of unexpected large payment demands, without having to regularly  manually sending data to my energy supplier, plus taking advantage of discounts and or cheaper rates

 

 

[hayfield]

13 hours ago, SamThomas said:

I really don't understand people banging on about the saving of not having meter readers being a real benefit of having a "smart" meter, especially as so many on here have reported their virual extintion.

The only times many of us without "smart" meters see a meter reader is when the meters have to be manually read by law which is, AFAIK every 2-years & that applies to "smart" meters too.

 

Another so called "benefit" is the DD/budget system - you hear too many horror stories of people trying to get their money returned when changing suppliers or having their usage revised.

 

From the guardian article on an earlier link (paying by DDI is cheaper)  You did earlier ask for evidence

 

British Gas has told customers its standing charges for electricity will be 45p for those with a direct debit, 50p for prepayment meters and 51p for cash and cheque. Gas standing charges will be 27p, 37p and 32p respectively. 

 

12 hours ago, AndrueC said:

I've never paid bills in any way other than by DD and in ~thirty years have never had a problem let alone needed to claim it back. I even have my credit cards set up to clear the balance in full by DD every month. I've never had a problem changing suppliers either and I'm not aware of a significant number of problems with DD. My understanding is that they have proven to be one of the safest and easiest ways to pay bills.

 

DDs don't vary by much month to month normally (credit cards excepted) so it's just a matter of ensuring you have the funds in you account. You always get notified of a DD change - eg; the email I got last week - so you adjust your budget accordingly. Where possible I move all my DDs to the first week of the month so that they are covered by my salary payment.

 

As long as you're living within your means I see no reason to pay bills other than by DD.

 

To be fair to SamThomas things do sometimes go wrong with DDI's as they do with every other payment system, and there are myths that the account holder loses control over payments. (my own bank told me that I could not cancel a DDI, I quickly put the agent into their place and the DDI was instantly cancelled) 

 

Like almost everyone else I have quite a few DDI's working as they should on my bank accounts every month. For me having made regular DDI payments to cover my annual energy use has to date cushioned me from the recent rises, my smart meter (along with paying monthly) has given me a trouble free way of ensuring I will not have any nasty surprises of unexpected large payment demands, without having to regularly  manually sending data to my energy supplier, plus taking advantage of discounts and or cheaper rates

 

 

[SamThomas]

12 hours ago, AndrueC said:

No such inference was intended, it was just a general comment. Are you always this sensitive?

Fair enough, sometimes I go into RMW mode".

[SamThomas]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

From the guardian article on an earlier link (paying by DDI is cheaper)  You did earlier ask for evidence

I did indeed ask for evidence - evidence that the utilities could pass on the savings of customers using the DD system as opposed to the system I use where I am in complete control & is also automated.

 

I'm also aware that paying by DD is cheaper, but 1). I don't trust it (based on experience) & 2). I'm OK with paying a little more to remain in control.

 

Time to move on please.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Nick C said:

What's a meter reader? I've not seen one for years - and we're not on smart meters...

 

[AndrueC]

37 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

Fair enough, sometimes I go into RMW mode".

Lol, no problem. I could have phrased it better. My Dad used to say that he had to be more wary of direct debits after he retired and was living on his pension.

[APOLLO]

This is EDF's rates (standard variable tariff and details commencing April (new price cap) to September 2022. It explains everything in detail.

 

https://www.edfenergy.com/sites/default/files/r1299.pdf

 

There are two sets of rates. The first is for normal meters

 

Standard Variable electricity and gas - Credit prices *DD prices cover - Monthly Fixed Direct Debit, 

 

IF YOU WANT TO PAY YOUR AMOUNT IN FULL DIRECT DEBIT WHOLE AMOUNT EVERY MONTH OR EVERY THREE MONTHS – HOW IT WORKS • Every month/three months you’ll get a reminder from us asking you to read your meter or pay your regular payment amount. • If you give a valid meter reading by the date we ask you to, we’ll use this to send you a bill for the amount we’ll collect from your account for that month or three months. So you can be sure you’re paying for your actual use. • We’ll also check your regular payment amount to make sure it’s set correctly and that you’re paying for what you use. • If you don’t give us a reading, we’ll ask you to pay a ‘regular payment amount’ which we work out by calculating how much energy we expect you to use in a year and dividing this into 12 equal payments. We look at any meter readings you’ve sent us or we’ve taken for you – if a meter reader visits your property for example. If you have less than two meter readings for your account, we will look at the size of your home and how you use your energy to make sure you’re paying the right amount.

 

I intend to do the above after 1 May when my contract ends.

 

 

The second is for smart meters

 

Standard electricity and gas – prepayment prices Electricity and gas prepayment prices are effective from April 2022 to September 2022. If you are (or become) a prepayment customer, and have a smart meter installed, the smart pay as you go “PAYG” prices for this tariff will apply. This is effective from 1 April 2022 (or from installation if after this date). You can find the prices for that payment method on the previous page.

 

VERY complicated indeed.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

[BMS]

22 hours ago, Ouroborus said:

 

What's the law being broken? 

 

The meter hasn't been tampered with, simply that on a sunny day, electricity may flow more in one direction than the other.  The PV was professionally installed at a time before smart meters.

 

I'm paying £3k a year at the moment for electricity, I'm really not worried about ever having a negative bill.

 

Potentially IMHO you would be breaking the terms of your contract with the supplier by not paying for the electricity used and being paid for what you export to the grid if that applies.

Anract from a more detailed Which report:

"

Will I be billed retrospectively?

So if you notice your meter running backwards, should you tell your supplier or not?

It might be tempting not to, as you will benefit from lower electricity bills. But beware that if the supplier finds out, it has a right to charge you retrospectively for up to a year for the electricity you have used but have not been charged for.

If you don't tell your supplier and it finds out, it has a right to charge you retrospectively.

Energy suppliers are deciding whether - and how much - to bill for energy usage retrospectively on a case-by-case basis. Most say they understand that, in most cases, the customer is initially unaware of the problem. And so they might, for instance, seek to recover only a proportion of the costs, worked out by looking at usage patterns after the meter has been upgraded.

However, once you have told your supplier that your usage meter is running backwards, the company has a period of one year in which to issue a bill for past usage. After this period, you don't legally have to pay a bill issued retrospectively.

Consumers who feel they have been unfairly billed in relation to this issue, or who have been charged to have their usage meter upgraded, should contact the Energy Ombudsman

"

Regards

.

[Ouroborus]

-

Edited March 8, 2022 by Ouroborus
duplicated

[Ouroborus]

Thanks, I read that too.    It would possibly be a breach of contract, but its not a breach of law.   

 

Its not my meter, its the property of the supply company, therefore the onus is on them that they ensure their equipment is fit for purpose.  They can replace it it they want to. But there is nothing that compels me to report it as faulty, just that i risk a years worth of bills if they decide it is.  Which, by the way, did happen to me in a rental property which had a smart meter.  Green Star Energy (cowboys) decided the meter was faulty (the property was empty) and billed me.  I had to take it to the ombudsman and supply the tenancy contracts, rental income and then wait for Green Star to have the meter tested.  I won.

 

I think the take home message from the Which? article was that if you notice your meter goes backward on a sunny day, perhaps think about keeping it to yourself.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Ouroborus

[boxbrownie]

Well I had been telling my previous supplier since last August that our gas meter had stopped reading usage, every month they sent a request for a reading and I sent the same reading each month with a note reminding them the meter is faulty and I heard absolutely nothing, when Pure Planet finally went bust and we were transferred over the Shell Energy in December I made sure they knew about the faulty meter but even then they weren’t too bothered and just said they don’t actually “take over” the gas supply until February and our meter will be changed in April.

 

Its an absolute mess.

[shady]

If /when so called smart meters actually become smart meters then I might have one fitted , at present I cant see any advantage for most people in using them (if someone is blind or disabled in a way that prevents them from reading their meters then fair enough they get an advantage). I don't find it very difficult to open the meter box , take a reading and submit it online.

(The "useful" info of what is being used at any one time has been available via either free or cheap meters (wireless clamp meter) for well over a decade anyway ).

 

When people ask the question of could the existing electrical infrastructure cope with everyone going fully electric , the answer is a very simple not a cat in hell's chance (it will vary from place to place).

 

Generally speaking a residential property will have  a 60, 80 or 100 amp main fuse , obviously when this was done no one expected a residential property to be drawing the full load , let alone doing so for any length of time, let alone the thought of all/many in the same street trying to do so at the same time, the "last mile" as it stands simply wont cope.

The "Last Mile" was built on the assumption that approx a max of one third of the "capacity" would be used at the same time. When local underground cables overheat and break , depending on how long ago they where installed and the complexity of the local situation the existing records of what cables are exactly where/feed into each property is not always as accurate as it could be. (though some cowboy road crews do seem to  "find" pipes and cables very easily !!)

 

This morning Gas was trading at £6.50 per therm , that's 22 pence per Kilowatt Hour or over 3 times the cap increase that comes in on 1st April , and that's the wholesale price!!

I have seen it suggest that roughly speaking any gas fired power station that was forced to buy at that price would mean its cost of gas per Kilowatt hour of electricity would be 65p!!!

 

Before the current Ukraine situation , practically everyone was expecting another increase in the cap prices in October , now its just a question of how large an increase.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sir TophamHatt]

On 05/03/2022 at 15:01, hayfield said:

10 years ago the government introduced heavily discounted insulating schemes, I had my loft insulation topped up to the then standards for £50, at the same time the cavities in the walls were filled again for £50.

Which is great for those people that can get on those schemes.

Whenever I have looked, unless you are in receipt of some sort of benefit, it's largly full price.

Having to spend best part of £1000 a month on nursery fees, £500 on a mortgage (our 3-bed house was bought for £140k a few years back) - leaves little left for insulation indulgences.  We already use less electric than many our age, as well as trying to heat our living room using the fire only but a 2 year old needs a warm bedroom to sleep in, so it's not as easy without heating.

I appreciate we're just at an expensive stage in our lives but it's not as simple as paying £50 and it's done.

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

Which is great for those people that can get on those schemes.

Whenever I have looked, unless you are in receipt of some sort of benefit, it's largly full price.

Having to spend best part of £1000 a month on nursery fees, £500 on a mortgage (our 3-bed house was bought for £140k a few years back) - leaves little left for insulation indulgences.  We already use less electric than many our age, as well as trying to heat our living room using the fire only but a 2 year old needs a warm bedroom to sleep in, so it's not as easy without heating.

I appreciate we're just at an expensive stage in our lives but it's not as simple as paying £50 and it's done.

 

The two schemes I am referring to were open to everyone, the initial one was for rolls of insulation in B&Q perhaps 20-25 years ago and had printing on the packaging stating these were subsidised by an energy company. I must admit that when I insulated the roof space of the extension we had built 5 years ago the cost of insulation had rocketed

 

The second scheme was to increase the depth of insulation/insulate the loft and or insulate the cavity in the house walls, the cost of each to the householder was £50 each

The only rule I can remember was that at least 50% of the loft had to be covered the the depth of insulation required. No financial checks or income requirements were required, From memory mine was done after Dec 2009 as I was working when it was done, prior to Dec 09 I was self employed and would have taken the day off

 

The house we now live in had the same thing done both in the loft and walls, the paperwork states it was done in Sep 2009

 

I do appreciate the situation you are in, when my daughter was born my wife gave up work for several years and times were very tight and as you say there is no money available for these things that will make life better for you.

 

I guess the calls on the public purse are many and schemes now have to be more targeted to those in the most need

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

I guess the calls on the public purse are many and schemes now have to be more targeted to those in the most need

 

If we're going to have this done we're going to have to pay for it - whether that's pay for it ourselves, or pay increased taxes.

If we don't have it done, we still have to pay - but in the form of increased heating usage.

[Reorte]

I could do with some more insulation but the awkward bit (which admittedly I've talked about from time to time but never actually made any meaningful effort to find a solution) is a gap between a false and real ceiling. The false ceiling goes to the bottom of the roof, the real ceiling above it (so originally there would be a bit of sloping ceiling), which gives an area of uninsulated roof that there's no obvious way of reaching. I'm not sure I'd want to trust the false ceiling to the weight of insulation, even if I could find a long enough stick to poke it in to place with.

 

Also the doors opening right in to the living room don't help (complete with cat flap and letter slot), just settled for a curtain over the front door.

[boxbrownie]

25 minutes ago, Reorte said:

just settled for a curtain over the front door.

There you go…..15th century draft proofing never fails.

[Hroth]

31 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Also the doors opening right in to the living room don't help (complete with cat flap and letter slot), just settled for a curtain over the front door.

 

Doors are always a bu@@er, sausage-dog draught excluders are a great help too!

 

 

On energy consumption in general, I've just submitted my G&E readings for the last three months.  I was prepared for the worst, but the result was within the bounds of sanity. However, given the way things are going I expect the next quarter will probably be the same, even with the CH mostly off.  I don't think a "smart meter" is going to help!

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

If we're going to have this done we're going to have to pay for it - whether that's pay for it ourselves, or pay increased taxes.

If we don't have it done, we still have to pay - but in the form of increased heating usage.

 

Michael

 

I think that is one of the problems for homeowners, don't get me wrong as the benefits far outweigh the negatives, I guess one of the benefits of social housing properties are bought up to a minimum standard, as for those who rent privately not much other than voting with your feet

 

We moved 6 years ago and had a list of requirements which we hoped would sort us out through retirement, when I bought this house the insulation work in the loft and walls was a nice to have feature, 6 years later its a must have.

[Michael Hodgson]

I remember when everybody heated their houses with coal fires.  Although this place is later than that and doesn't have a chimney, I own it, so I had to pay for the double glazing as there were no government schemes available.  I did get a subsidy for cavity wall insulation (and a few  free light bulbs!), but I'll have to pay if I decide to replace my ancient but reliable gas boiler with something else which although more efficient will still be expensive to run but probably less reliable.  If I do replace with gas, that could become unavailable in Europe within the life of a new boiler (or even within the life of the current government); electric or oil heating costs a lot more per therm, I don't have the land for ground sourced heating,  I'm unimpressed by air sourced heat pumps and solar panels aren't a great idea on a north facing roof.

 

I learned to drive a petrol engined car, but now I'm using a diesel which the politicians and environmentalists encouraged at the time.  Now they want me to drive an EV, but the forward economics are looking less attractive with the way the world is generating power.  Global politics and the economics of energy keep changing, but at the moment it looks like I have to wait for somebody to invent a better technology.  Domestic nuclear reactors anybody?