Smart Meter = smart move?

[tigerburnie]

I can't turn my fire down, I guess I could throw less wood/coal on it......................................(we don't have gas up here due to the hills, all electric, so when the power goes off as it did last winter for a few days, we see, warm and cook by the light of the stove).

[hayfield]

31 minutes ago, tigerburnie said:

I can't turn my fire down, I guess I could throw less wood/coal on it......................................(we don't have gas up here due to the hills, all electric, so when the power goes off as it did last winter for a few days, we see, warm and cook by the light of the stove).

 

 

When buying a property we look at most aspects including utilities, the house we live in we bought on the basis we would build an extension. Had we bought a house semi off grid one of the factors would be having a power back up system, plus not only would solar power be beneficial but also a battery storage system comes into its own, and I guess more likely to be able to use a wind turbine

 

We now live in a rural village where some properties electricity is from overhead power cables, these regularly break in one place or another during the year. However if you are lucky enough to have woodland near for a supply of cheap/free fire wood then the gas shortage effects will be less affected by the gas shortage. Swings and roundabouts

[Ouroborus]

I watched in horror last night as the local news featured a woman who was sitting in her house in the dark with absolutely everything turned off.  She was pleased to be earning £25 for this.

 

Its a powercut in all but name.

 

And this is the sweetest carrot it'll ever be.  The next round of 'trials' will see that £25 reduced until eventually it fizzles down to zero and we get some bs propaganda that "Energy Saver Tuesday" is good for the planet and good for our wellbeing.

 

This happens every time, whether its smart meters, diesel cars, electric cars, whatever.  Here's the carrot, here comes the stick.

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

20 minutes ago, Ouroborus said:

This happens every time, whether its smart meters, diesel cars, electric cars, whatever.

Every goverment involved cock up,i wish i had never had them fitted,and the more i dig the more i find agree,if it aint broke dont fix it,leave well alone.

[hayfield]

31 minutes ago, Ouroborus said:

I watched in horror last night as the local news featured a woman who was sitting in her house in the dark with absolutely everything turned off.  She was pleased to be earning £25 for this.

 

Its a powercut in all but name.

 

And this is the sweetest carrot it'll ever be.  The next round of 'trials' will see that £25 reduced until eventually it fizzles down to zero and we get some bs propaganda that "Energy Saver Tuesday" is good for the planet and good for our wellbeing.

 

This happens every time, whether its smart meters, diesel cars, electric cars, whatever.  Here's the carrot, here comes the stick.

 

7 minutes ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

Every goverment involved cock up,i wish i had never had them fitted,and the more i dig the more i find agree,if it aint broke dont fix it,leave well alone.

 

Like most things the press searches for the most extreme examples they can find which has either no base in reality or shows some misguided person(s) taking things to extreme

 

Despite what we read or told by some conspiracists we are in a period of extreme energy costs following a decade of cheap energy made worse by the war in Ukraine, Many of us over the past couple of years anticipated energy prices would rise, for years now successive governments have encouraged consumers to become more energy efficient from a whole range of methods from insulating properties to LED light bulbs. As a society we should have done more

 

This experiment is totally voluntary, its looking at ways to smoothing out peak demands by those who are able to do so. I think it is important that folk like me who can alter their activities so that others who cannot can enjoy an uninterrupted supply of power at peak times. Far more preferable than power cuts 11 As individuals what we save is minuscule, but as a group its rather a lot

 

I have taken part in 4 out of the last 5 trials, yes we have used power but during the test period we have not used unnecessary appliances and changing the time or method of heating our evening meal. In the 3 events I have results for during those periods we saved 2.08 kwh, most of which we transferred our usage to a different time period. Its not sitting in the dark at all just adapting our useage

 

After the first test Octopus said the amount of power saved was the equivalent  of turning off one gas fired power station for the 1 hour period. the latest results excluding last nights trial are

 

So far in Saving Sessions, Octopus customers have saved 443,253 kWh. That's the equivalent of boiling the kettle 1,970,013 times

 

Whether we have smart meters or not we all will have to pay for peak time excess energy costs, we are doing this now anyway as the cost is spread over the whole day. not too long ago folk bulked at not being able to buy 100 watt bulbs, now we all buy LED bulbs in preference. Many have been buying cheap power during for years low use hours, no one has got up in alms.  

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

We are suffering from the destruction of the coal infrastructure been destroyed long before we had a safe sustainable alternative,the planet does not need saving and its had to deal with a lot worse than mankind in its existance,it has the time to do so,we dont.

Britain is 1% of the world emmissions so the rest are 99% one would assume,if you walk into a room where 99 people smoke and you dont are you going to get out alive,i doubt it.

until we all do something about it we are on a road to no where.We all want to live in the future but we need to invent it first and have it in place before we decimate what works.

[APOLLO]

Not just the UK.

 

 

Brit15

 

 

[Reorte]

17 minutes ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

We are suffering from the destruction of the coal infrastructure been destroyed long before we had a safe sustainable alternative,the planet does not need saving and its had to deal with a lot worse than mankind in its existance,it has the time to do so,we dont.

Need to be careful with that one. I agree about the point of destroying what we've got before we're in a decent place to actually do so, but not about "the planet does not need saving", although that depends exactly what you're talking about. It's not facing an existential crisis, and the changes that are happening are of the level that can happen naturally, but they happen naturally over very much longer periods and thus life has time to adjust. And that's before you consider the human pressures of an already badly over-populated world. It won't wipe us out but has the potential to cause a great deal of suffering. Now more extreme things like asteroids hitting the planet have also happened in the past and life has carried on, but only with a very large amount of it being lost.

 

Quote

 

Britain is 1% of the world emmissions so the rest are 99% one would assume,if you walk into a room where 99 people smoke and you dont are you going to get out alive,i doubt it.

until we all do something about it we are on a road to no where.We all want to live in the future but we need to invent it first and have it in place before we decimate what works.

 

Yes and no. There's a bit of "doesn't matter if I don't pay my tax, it's only a tiny fraction of the overall amount" about that. Everyone could say the same thing. People shouldn't get a pass simply because they live in a smaller country (or people in a larger country get a greater burden because of that). IMO it makes more sense to look at the figures per capita. On that front the UK isn't actually that bad, ahead of most (but not  all) significant industrialised countries. Ahead of China too for that matter, although you could well argue that we've just outsourced our emissions there (it wouldn't be unreasonable to argue that any they produce making stuff we use should be counted against us, not China).

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

Britain is 1% of the world emmissions so the rest are 99% one would assume,if you walk into a room where 99 people smoke and you dont are you going to get out alive,i doubt it.

 

So all the other 1%s keep doing it because the other 99% are doing it....

I assume you litter all over the place because you saw some teenagers dropping their Big Mac wrappers.

[hayfield]

36 minutes ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

We are suffering from the destruction of the coal infrastructure been destroyed long before we had a safe sustainable alternative,the planet does not need saving and its had to deal with a lot worse than mankind in its existance,it has the time to do so,we dont.

Britain is 1% of the world emmissions so the rest are 99% one would assume,if you walk into a room where 99 people smoke and you dont are you going to get out alive,i doubt it.

until we all do something about it we are on a road to no where.We all want to live in the future but we need to invent it first and have it in place before we decimate what works.

 

Seems to be going off topic and nothing to do with smart meters

[SHMD]

The trouble with emotive type phrases such as "Only 6 months to save the NHS" or "10 years to save the Planet" is that they are finite - they have a cut off point.

The NHS and the Planet will deteriorate slowly and there is no "one day" where everything is good and OK and the next it's failed.

 

I have no intension of getting a Remote Controlled Meter BUT I also have no want to waste anything either.

 

Perhaps instead of "Save the Planet" we should use the slogan - "Do not waste the Planet"?

 

 

Kev.

[APOLLO]

Truth is oil and gas are running out, it will be mostly gone by 2050 if we continue to burn them at present levels.

 

Source - BP Statistical review 2021

 

https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/business-sites/en/global/corporate/pdfs/energy-economics/statistical-review/bp-stats-review-2021-full-report.pdf

 

Scroll down to Total Oil proven reserves, reserve to production ratio 53.5 years (oil) - report page 16

 

And further down for gas, reserve to production ratio 48.8 years (gas) - report page 34

 

That's 53 years for oil, 49 for gas and any left by then will be at stratospheric cost. Of course reducing demand increases the R/P, and there are oil and gas fields to be found - (hopefully).

 

THATS the real reason for all this green malarkey - and the worlds population is rapidly rising and now EVERYBODY want's "The western lifestyle" - so we are all expected to bite the bullet now.

This site shows the demand on the gas transmission system, power generation gas, export to Europe (Bacton) and Ireland (Moffat) in real time on National Grids website (scroll down to the bar graph), a bit further down.

 

https://mip-prd-web.azurewebsites.net/InstantaneousView/Index

 

We (UK) currently import around half our gas from Norway (their bit of the North sea). The Langeled field, as shown in real time on National Grids website (scroll down to the bar graph), a bit further down.

 

Interestingly Norways gas has an R/P ratio of 18.4 years, UK less than 5 years, no wonder the push to ban gas boilers etc !!!!!

And this is how the mix of our electricity is generated. Not much wind around today !!

 

https://electricinsights.co.uk/#/dashboard?&_k=tuuxqh

 

All the info is on the web, all in real time, all very alarming for the future.

 

Stay warm.

 

Brit15 (50 years gas engineering).

 

 

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

11 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

So all the other 1%s keep doing it because the other 99% are doing it....

I assume you litter all over the place because you saw some teenagers dropping their Big Mac wrappers.

Well you got one bit correct,we would do better closing Mc D than the coal fired power system.

[Reorte]

13 minutes ago, SHMD said:

The trouble with emotive type phrases such as "Only 6 months to save the NHS" or "10 years to save the Planet" is that they are finite - they have a cut off point.

The NHS and the Planet will deteriorate slowly and there is no "one day" where everything is good and OK and the next it's failed.

 

It's a problem with language and conceptualising, there are frequently things in life where there are definite OKs and definite not OKs, big trouble with no way out, and a continuum between them. There never is an absolute, rigid fixed point somewhere in between where it flips over but how else to deal with that practically?
 

Quote

 

I have no intension of getting a Remote Controlled Meter BUT I also have no want to waste anything either.

 

Perhaps instead of "Save the Planet" we should use the slogan - "Do not waste the Planet"?

 

Sounds good to me.

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

The usage data seems good on the Drax site as i like to keep an eye on gridwatch as the electric Octopus send me is 100% green off a grid thats anything but.

[Metr0Land]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

Truth is oil and gas are running out, it will be mostly gone by 2050 if we continue to burn them at present levels.

 

Source - BP Statistical review 2021

 

https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/business-sites/en/global/corporate/pdfs/energy-economics/statistical-review/bp-stats-review-2021-full-report.pdf

 

Scroll down to Total Oil proven reserves, reserve to production ratio 53.5 years (oil) - report page 16

 

And further down for gas, reserve to production ratio 48.8 years (gas) - report page 34

 

That's 53 years for oil, 49 for gas and any left by then will be at stratospheric cost. Of course reducing demand increases the R/P, and there are oil and gas fields to be found - (hopefully).

 

THATS the real reason for all this green malarkey - and the worlds population is rapidly rising and now EVERYBODY want's "The western lifestyle" - so we are all expected to bite the bullet now.

 

 

Brit15 (50 years gas engineering).

 

 

 

ISTR back in the 70's oil crisis we were being told THERE'S ONLY 10,000 DAYS OF OIL LEFT!  (ie ~27 years)  Guess what?  We've had something like 20,000 days since those banner headlines and the alarmists quietly backtracked during that time to say 'we only said there were 10,000 days of PROVEN reserves'.

 

I suspect when push comes to shove the figures now being quoted will prove to be under-estimates but in any case I'll be long gone before those dates come around.

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, Metr0Land said:

 

ISTR back in the 70's oil crisis we were being told THERE'S ONLY 10,000 DAYS OF OIL LEFT!  (ie ~27 years)  Guess what?  We've had something like 20,000 days since those banner headlines and the alarmists quietly backtracked during that time to say 'we only said there were 10,000 days of PROVEN reserves'.

 

I suspect when push comes to shove the figures now being quoted will prove to be under-estimates but in any case I'll be long gone before those dates come around.

There'll be more oil than is currently known about of course, but neither is there an unlimited amount, and the odds are that as more time goes by the newly-discovered reserves will be more difficult and expensive to exploit.

[Ouroborus]

4 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 

I have taken part in 4 out of the last 5 trials, yes we have used power but during the test period we have not used unnecessary appliances and changing the time or method of heating our evening meal. In the 3 events I have results for during those periods we saved 2.08 kwh, most of which we transferred our usage to a different time period. Its not sitting in the dark at all just adapting our useage

 

 

Whether we have smart meters or not we all will have to pay for peak time excess energy costs, we are doing this now anyway as the cost is spread over the whole day. not too long ago folk bulked at not being able to buy 100 watt bulbs, now we all buy LED bulbs in preference. Many have been buying cheap power during for years low use hours, no one has got up in alms.  

 

If you're changing the time you eat your evening meal I don't see how this saves energy.  I DO see how it allows Octopus and the others to say "during this hour we saved 400 polar bears".   Keep it quiet that we burned 300 later on.  Its all smoke and mirrors.

 

If i remember correctly, the transition from 100W bulbs to LEDs was not direct.  In the middle we had "Low Energy" bulbs (Compact Fluorescents).  Remember those?  The ones that took an age to warm up, remained dim and were so full of mercury that they need their own recycling facility.  I'm not sure they were such a 'win' for the environment.

 

The point I'm making is this.  There is a cost to everything.  Everyone wants the western lifestyle.  And some want it more than us and are prepared to pay for it, perhaps more than we are.   There will be a reason for these trials, one likely not shared with the general public.  Maybe its the forerunner of energy rationing, actually limiting how much energy we are allowed to use.   You and your fellow participants may perhaps be allowing the authorities to determine just how much electricity you need as opposed to how much you want. 

 

How low can you go?  We're about to find out.

 

I can already hear the tin foil hat comments coming along, but i well remember those comments about smart meters and those spurious claims about how they were introduced to save us money.  I suppose in a roundabout way, they will, just not in the manner we really wanted.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Ouroborus

[Reorte]

25 minutes ago, Ouroborus said:

 

If you're changing the time you eat your evening meal I don't see how this saves energy.  I DO see how it allows Octopus and the others to say "during this hour we saved 400 polar bears".   Keep it quiet that we burned 300 later on.  Its all smoke and mirrors.

Only some sources of power are controllable (at least rapidly). The wind blows when it blows, nuclear power stations can't be turned on and off at will etc. The only ones that can are some forms of gas and hydroelectric. So to meet peak demand there is some wastage the rest of the time. Trying to persuade people to shift is about trying to make demand match a little more closely to the inflexible production.

 

The problem with it is that demand isn't actually all that flexible either. Some shifting is possible but stuff mostly needs using when it needs using (and there are possibly other issues with shifting, e.g. I think having a meal closer to bed time isn't actually a particularly good thing health-wise). On the other hand if you can run your washing machine overnight without it keeping anyone awake it helps to do so. Well as long as it's not one of those prone to catching fire... It's also why charging electric cars overnight doesn't really put any extra burden on generation and transmission (yet), it's using power that would otherwise go to waste, which is a win-win.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Reorte

[APOLLO]

3 hours ago, Reorte said:

There'll be more oil than is currently known about of course, but neither is there an unlimited amount, and the odds are that as more time goes by the newly-discovered reserves will be more difficult and expensive to exploit.

 

 Just about sums up the situation.

 

The BP statistics world energy review is a very well respected document throughout the worlds energy business, and of course is a best guess by those who know in the industry. If you look at previous years, some years various R/P's are up, sometimes down, due to many factors, (usage, weather, new discoveries and fields coming on / off stream etc) - but the general overall trend is down. Covid gave R/P's bit of a relief, but we are getting back on track with world energy usage post covid and with added population yearly.

 

Interesting to note that the two pages I quoted are absent from this years (2022) BP report. (Reserves and R/P ratios). I know not why (but can guess).

 

Moving load outside of peak is a help but not a solution. We (UK) need more base load generation, which is either coal, gas or nuclear as wind cannot be relied upon to provide a significant % of base load  (cold windless spells like right now 7.4% wind).

 

I remember my apprenticeship induction course back in 1969 - Natural Gas would last for 25 years we were told, well that was over 50 years ago and there's still a bit left !!. Truth is Maggie Thatcher and her "Dash for gas" (electricity generation by gas) has vastly depleted our reserves and shut all our coal mines, with no thought whatsoever as to its successor over the years, which has to be Nuclear given the immense scale of the problem. Trouble is new nuclear takes years to plan / develop / build, years that we don't have, hence the vast price increases etc.

 

Still there's this (warning - Daily Express) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/1709009/Nuclear-fusion-breakthrough-US-unlimited-energy

 

Brit15

 

 

 

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

Well two months in and after a visit to tidy up the bad work still nothing working as far as smarts concerned,it looks like the electricity meters gave up coms to them too and after three days the screens still searching............DONT GO NEAR THE THOUGHT OF HAVING THESE THINGS,if it aint broke leave well alone,they only want to data collect anyway and NO the rates are not cheaper,its as misleading as the you only get green energy crap.

[hayfield]

4 hours ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

Well two months in and after a visit to tidy up the bad work still nothing working as far as smarts concerned,it looks like the electricity meters gave up coms to them too and after three days the screens still searching............DONT GO NEAR THE THOUGHT OF HAVING THESE THINGS,if it aint broke leave well alone,they only want to data collect anyway and NO the rates are not cheaper,its as misleading as the you only get green energy crap.

 

Seems you have summed it up   "a visit to tidy up the bad work still nothing working as far as smarts concerned," is a comment on bad workmanship. Many of us have had smart meters working for years without an issue

 

I for one fall into the category, where the smart part of the meters worked perfectly, but the gas meter itself was failing to record my true gas use. Using your analogy/thought process I should be shouting from the hills don't use gas meters.

 

Until the cap came in force I was on a cheaper rate importing energy  by using a smart meter. I was and still am receiving a market leading export rate  again because I have a smart meter. I have been on a trial because I have a smart meter which has earnt me energy credits for reducing my usage at certain times. Smart meters have in the past and still are saving me money.  Simply if I took your advice I would be out of pocket

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

15 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Seems you have summed it up   "a visit to tidy up the bad work still nothing working as far as smarts concerned," is a comment on bad workmanship. Many of us have had smart meters working for years without an issue

 

I for one fall into the category, where the smart part of the meters worked perfectly, but the gas meter itself was failing to record my true gas use. Using your analogy/thought process I should be shouting from the hills don't use gas meters.

 

Until the cap came in force I was on a cheaper rate importing energy  by using a smart meter. I was and still am receiving a market leading export rate  again because I have a smart meter. I have been on a trial because I have a smart meter which has earnt me energy credits for reducing my usage at certain times. Smart

meters have in the past and still are saving me money.  Simply if I took your advice I would be out of pocket

Ive been in the skilled trades 55 years and it took me 5 years before we were roaming the place working on the line side of electricity system,if you cannot attatch a meter to a board with three screws properly let alone straight god help the country.

As far as having to have a smart screen to cut your consumption ,if you cannot read the coventional meter and do some simple maths over given time periods............its not quantum physics we are talking,i dont know of many who find these work well or at all.

Im still giving readings as the gas isnt talking to the electricity meter,funny the old ones worked for 60 years without a hitch.

[hayfield]

9 minutes ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

Ive been in the skilled trades 55 years and it took me 5 years before we were roaming the place working on the line side of electricity system,if you cannot attatch a meter to a board with three screws properly let alone straight god help the country.

As far as having to have a smart screen to cut your consumption ,if you cannot read the coventional meter and do some simple maths over given time periods............its not quantum physics we are talking,i dont know of many who find these work well or at all.

Im still giving readings as the gas isnt talking to the electricity meter,funny the old ones worked for 60 years without a hitch.

 

We are not talking about consumption reduction, but its a known fact that in normal times having a smart meter gives you access to accounts with cheaper rates. As I export power on sunny days I earn at a higher rate per kwh as I have a smart meter. My readings are accurate and I do not have to freeze my but off reading the meter, then spend time sending the data off, in fact this out of date method is more likely to be affected by human error than the automated system. Who has mentioned a smart screen ?  In fact I doubt if the screen is smart at all !! its a visual display unit. 

 

You have a problem with either a bad installation and or faulty equipment, the vast majority do not have these issues. Ranting on about how skilled technicians are now again is nothing to do with the smart meter hardware. As you seem to have knowledge of electrics you are in a position where you could have a technical chat with the service department and get a quick resolution, good luck with your endeavours. 

[PhilH]

5 hours ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

Well two months in and after a visit to tidy up the bad work still nothing working as far as smarts concerned,it looks like the electricity meters gave up coms to them too and after three days the screens still searching............DONT GO NEAR THE THOUGHT OF HAVING THESE THINGS,if it aint broke leave well alone,they only want to data collect anyway and NO the rates are not cheaper,its as misleading as the you only get green energy crap.

As always other, equally valid, opinions are available….😎