Smart Meter = smart move?

[Reorte]

27 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

Why ? The banter is quite informative and friendly.

There were a few signs of it moving on from that, and I myself was starting to have to fight the temptation to bite. By "we" I meant the specific discussion I was having with hayfield, just didn't want that to descend in to a full-blown argument. I wasn't suggesting everyone else stopped.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Reorte

[Nick C]

46 minutes ago, hayfield said:

no changing the central heating settings when going on holidays and saves energy when we are out

 

I would strongly recommend that you switch that part off - Never tell any kind of internet connected system when you are on holiday - it's an open invitation to burglars, as such things frequently aren't anywhere near as secure as they should be.

 

12 minutes ago, 30801 said:

In fact round here the meters are under silly little plastic manhole covers that break when a car goes over them. 

Ours are under similar covers, but in the pavement, not places that cars usually go over them...

[30801]

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

Ours are under similar covers, but in the pavement, not places that cars usually go over them...

 

Ours are in the pavement too. Where cars usually go over them.

It's a new(ish) build development where widespread car ownership has come as a surprise to the developers meaning parking spaces are limited.

[hayfield]

16 hours ago, Nick C said:

 

I would strongly recommend that you switch that part off - Never tell any kind of internet connected system when you are on holiday - it's an open invitation to burglars, as such things frequently aren't anywhere near as secure as they should be.

 

Ours are under similar covers, but in the pavement, not places that cars usually go over them...

 

There is nothing to say we are away, its just the same as the house has reached its desired temperature. Or the fact that our burglar alarm (outside it looks the same on or off)  is on or one of the cars is not on the drive. In fact the last one if not two are far easier observed than my heating. The fact is our system you don't need to tell anything, it knows in real time that the heating is not needed, nothing about us being out or away, to be accurate the system is still on but with a different temperature setting. Unlike setting a system/thermostat to be off for a set period. Please comment about what you know, this is the second time in about 3 replies you have assumed incorrectly about my actions or systems.  

 

The next thing is you are going to say don't go away because you will be burgled !! Years ago we were burgled and we had no central heating, no computers and quite often my car was never parked outside my house (as someone got there first). Everything of value was replaced by the insurers. 

[APOLLO]

Interesting articles

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/1702718/smart-meter-energy-crisis-ovo-energy-bills-power-cuts

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/1702468/national-grid-emergency-blackout-plan-tomorrow-england-wales-world-cup-energy

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/28/national-grid-emergency-winter-plan-energy-prices

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63782026

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63785431

 

This energy crisis is getting worse by the day (as is the winter weather).

 

Brit15

[Nick C]

6 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

There is nothing to say we are away, its just the same as the house has reached its desired temperature. Or the fact that our burglar alarm (outside it looks the same on or off)  is on or one of the cars is not on the drive. In fact the last one if not two are far easier observed than my heating. The fact is our system you don't need to tell anything, it knows in real time that the heating is not needed, nothing about us being out or away, to be accurate the system is still on but with a different temperature setting. Unlike setting a system/thermostat to be off for a set period. Please comment about what you know, this is the second time in about 3 replies you have assumed incorrectly about my actions or systems.  

 

The next thing is you are going to say don't go away because you will be burgled !! Years ago we were burgled and we had no central heating, no computers and quite often my car was never parked outside my house (as someone got there first). Everything of value was replaced by the insurers. 

While your particular case may be fine, there are known vulnerabilities in many of the smart home devices that could give an attacker access to the data such systems have learnt about the household's habits - here's one for the older Nest, for example. With that, they can predict when someone is likely to be out of the home, and so when to attempt a burglary - without needing to spend ages watching the house to see when cars and people come and go, during which time they could easily be spotted by either the householder or a neighbour.

 

That was my first post on this thread in several months, and it is part of my job to know about important IT vulnerabilities...

[PhilH]

34 minutes ago, Nick C said:

While your particular case may be fine, there are known vulnerabilities in many of the smart home devices that could give an attacker access to the data such systems have learnt about the household's habits - here's one for the older Nest, for example. With that, they can predict when someone is likely to be out of the home, and so when to attempt a burglary - without needing to spend ages watching the house to see when cars and people come and go, during which time they could easily be spotted by either the householder or a neighbour.

 

That was my first post on this thread in several months, and it is part of my job to know about important IT vulnerabilities...

Would it not be fair to say that in this technological age there is no safe haven for information. Certainly, at consumer level and has been proved time and time again, whether we like it or even know it because of the amount of information available on each and every one of us out in the ether there is no way of protecting our information if someone really wants to obtain it.

 

More and more I’m convinced all we can really do is trust to luck….

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by PhilH

[hayfield]

34 minutes ago, Nick C said:

While your particular case may be fine, there are known vulnerabilities in many of the smart home devices that could give an attacker access to the data such systems have learnt about the household's habits - here's one for the older Nest, for example. With that, they can predict when someone is likely to be out of the home, and so when to attempt a burglary - without needing to spend ages watching the house to see when cars and people come and go, during which time they could easily be spotted by either the householder or a neighbour.

 

That was my first post on this thread in several months, and it is part of my job to know about important IT vulnerabilities...

 

Nick

 

Thanks for your input, but this is not the technology that I can recognise and looks nothing like a smart meter ? 

 

Am I correct that its a thermostat ? But not a modern one similar to what's in use by the major suppliers. My smart thermostat is no different to my smart TV's or Alexa if I had one

 

Thanks for the heads up but many thousands have the Hive and Tado systems,  law of averages some will be burgled. 

[hayfield]

10 minutes ago, PhilH said:

Would it not be fair to say that in this technological age there is no safe haven for information. Certainly, at consumer level and has been proved time and time again, whether we like it or even know it because of the amount of information available on each and every one of us out in the ether there is no way of protecting our information if someone really wants to obtain it.

 

More and more I’m convinced all we can really do is trust to luck….

 

 

Phil

 

Quite correct, if someone is willing to go into that much detail you will get burgled come what may

[Reorte]

8 minutes ago, PhilH said:

Would it not be fair to say that in this technological age there is no safe haven for information. Certainly, at consumer level and has been proved time and time again, whether we like it or even know it because of the amount of information available on each and every one of us out in the ether there is no way of protecting our information if someone really wants to obtain it.

 

More and more I’m convinced all we can really do is trust to luck….

There's no such thing as 100% safe in any domain, so to a degree we're always trusting to luck. The question isn't ever really "is this completely safe?" it's "is this safe enough that it doesn't make sense to be concerned?"

 

It doesn't do us any good to be either over-concerned or over-complacent, the problem with new stuff is finding out just where sensible lies.

[Nick C]

8 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Nick

 

Thanks for your input, but this is not the technology that I can recognise and looks nothing like a smart meter ? 

 

Am I correct that its a thermostat ? But not a modern one similar to what's in use by the major suppliers. My smart thermostat is no different to my smart TV's or Alexa if I had one

 

Thanks for the heads up but many thousands have the Hive and Tado systems,  law of averages some will be burgled. 

Yep, it's a thermostat, I just used that as an example as it was the first one I found a decent article on. I think @Reorte has summed up the point I was trying to make well - just exercise a degree of caution before relying too much on 'smart' devices as there are negatives as well as positives - and I wanted to make readers of the thread aware of some of the negatives that might not be immediately obvious - and data security is something many people are not fully aware of.

 

Another thing to be aware of is the dependence on third-party servers for many smart devices - we all know that 1st gen smart meters revert to being a traditional meter if you switch suppliers, but most other smart devices don't - so if the supplier stops trading, or simply decides not to support that particular model any more, customers can often be left with an expensive paperweight - again, that might be a risk you're willing to take for the convenience it gives you, or it might not.

[30801]

22 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Another thing to be aware of is the dependence on third-party servers for many smart devices -

 

Further from smart meters but bye bye two grand smart excercise bike.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/20/21145349/flywheel-bike-shut-down-email-user-reactions-peloton-trade-in

 

We've just added the new oven to the rats nest of accounts for the various smart devices in the house.

[hayfield]

20 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Yep, it's a thermostat, I just used that as an example as it was the first one I found a decent article on. I think @Reorte has summed up the point I was trying to make well - just exercise a degree of caution before relying too much on 'smart' devices as there are negatives as well as positives - and I wanted to make readers of the thread aware of some of the negatives that might not be immediately obvious - and data security is something many people are not fully aware of.

 

Another thing to be aware of is the dependence on third-party servers for many smart devices - we all know that 1st gen smart meters revert to being a traditional meter if you switch suppliers, but most other smart devices don't - so if the supplier stops trading, or simply decides not to support that particular model any more, customers can often be left with an expensive paperweight - again, that might be a risk you're willing to take for the convenience it gives you, or it might not.

 

Nick

 

I have more chance of having an accident crossing the road or driving my car. Does that mean I should never cross a road or ever buy a car ?

 

I have repeatedly asked those doom mongers how I have been conned, coerced or exploited by getting a Smart meter. Not one has yet given me a straight answer

The same goes for my smart thermostat, it saves me money

 

I accept that like being a driver or a pedestrian I have to take care.   BUT both devices have saved me money and I have facts to back it up, yes there may be drawbacks but as oo to date the benefits far out weigh the disadvantages

 

We should all be responsible for reducing our consumption of energy if for no other reason than helping out others.

[Nick C]

7 minutes ago, hayfield said:

I have more chance of having an accident crossing the road or driving my car. Does that mean I should never cross a road or ever buy a car ?

Nope, it means you should assess the risks before doing so (i.e. look both ways before crossing). Going back to the very first post on this thread, the OP asked for both pros and cons of smart meters (and as usual with RMWeb it's gone off topic to include other smart devices) - you're doing well at discussing the pros, but we also need to discuss the cons. There are both, and it's up to each of us to weigh them up and decide if it's worth it for our own circumstances. 

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, Nick C said:

Nope, it means you should assess the risks before doing so (i.e. look both ways before crossing). Going back to the very first post on this thread, the OP asked for both pros and cons of smart meters (and as usual with RMWeb it's gone off topic to include other smart devices) - you're doing well at discussing the pros, but we also need to discuss the cons. There are both, and it's up to each of us to weigh them up and decide if it's worth it for our own circumstances. 

 

I have been told that I have been screwed by my energy supplier, conned and or pressured into taking one on. I have asked several times for how these claims have affected me, like anyone else if I have been taken for a ride I would like to know

 

This is actually on topic, as you say I have quoted facts which I have/can back up with evidence. But just because I don't like them or large energy suppliers does not make them bad. If there is an issue tell us.

 

To date I have not come across any cons other than the LED display is a bit iffy. Perhaps not getting enough fresh air as I don't have to go out in the poring rail to read the meter anymore.

 

Please enlighten me of the risks, I do have an open mind and perhaps I can as you say, "look both ways" to avoid a pitfall.   

[trevora]

3 hours ago, Nick C said:

we all know that 1st gen smart meters revert to being a traditional meter if you switch suppliers,

my first gen british gas meter still works fine with E ON

[Nick C]

43 minutes ago, hayfield said:

Please enlighten me of the risks, I do have an open mind and perhaps I can as you say, "look both ways" to avoid a pitfall.   

I've never said anyone was pressured or connect into getting one, although there were certainly articles suggesting that it was happening - see here for example.

 

My concern, as an IT professional, is the security side of things - as with everything in cybersecurity it's an endless arms race between the defenders and the attackers, and the more people switch the more incentive there will be for attackers to try and breach the SM security. There has certainly been a huge increase in cyberattacks on infrastructure over the last few years, especially since last February. No system is ever 100% secure, it's simply impossible. For now the good guys are winning, but it only needs one slip.

 

This is even more of an issue with commercial IoT/'smart home' devices that do not have the same regulatory oversight as the meters themselves do - can you be sure, for example, of where they are storing or transferring your personal data?

 

Of course the same problem exists with everything on the internet (including this very forum - after all, a lot of data was lost in the server failure last year), but in all cases it's important to think about your data and what's happening with it.

 

For you, the benefits of a smart meter outweigh the risks, because it's saved you money and enabled you to make best use of your solar panels. For me, I've been able to make substantial savings using just a cheapo power monitor and more loft insulation, I can't afford solar, and I'm on a fixed-price tariff from just before it all went crazy - so in my case there is not yet enough benefit to get a smart meter. That may well change in the future, depending what happens between now and when my current tariff expires - and at that point I'll have to re-evaluate the evidence and see if the balance has swung.

[hayfield]

3 minutes ago, Nick C said:

I've never said anyone was pressured or connect into getting one, although there were certainly articles suggesting that it was happening - see here for example.

 

My concern, as an IT professional, is the security side of things - as with everything in cybersecurity it's an endless arms race between the defenders and the attackers, and the more people switch the more incentive there will be for attackers to try and breach the SM security. There has certainly been a huge increase in cyberattacks on infrastructure over the last few years, especially since last February. No system is ever 100% secure, it's simply impossible. For now the good guys are winning, but it only needs one slip.

 

This is even more of an issue with commercial IoT/'smart home' devices that do not have the same regulatory oversight as the meters themselves do - can you be sure, for example, of where they are storing or transferring your personal data?

 

Of course the same problem exists with everything on the internet (including this very forum - after all, a lot of data was lost in the server failure last year), but in all cases it's important to think about your data and what's happening with it.

 

For you, the benefits of a smart meter outweigh the risks, because it's saved you money and enabled you to make best use of your solar panels. For me, I've been able to make substantial savings using just a cheapo power monitor and more loft insulation, I can't afford solar, and I'm on a fixed-price tariff from just before it all went crazy - so in my case there is not yet enough benefit to get a smart meter. That may well change in the future, depending what happens between now and when my current tariff expires - and at that point I'll have to re-evaluate the evidence and see if the balance has swung.

 

Nick

 

I can understand where you are coming from and the sound advice you are giving, yes I should take the same care with the smart items for my energy system as I do with all other smart devices, including the devices we use to access RMweb

 

Someone else questioned the reasons why I got a smart meter, none of them were accurate and despite requests no evidence or advice has been forthcoming.

 

Smart meter security is down to the providers and is their liability, much the same way my phone security is down to the phone network & phone maker, even with all their funds computer and phone companies have security lapses and get fined appropriately. Being careful is very wise council but totally different to not using one

[SHMD]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

I have been told that I have been screwed by my energy supplier, conned and or pressured into taking one on. I have asked several times for how these claims have affected me, like anyone else if I have been taken for a ride I would like to know

 

This is actually on topic, as you say I have quoted facts which I have/can back up with evidence. But just because I don't like them or large energy suppliers does not make them bad. If there is an issue tell us.

 

To date I have not come across any cons other than the LED display is a bit iffy. Perhaps not getting enough fresh air as I don't have to go out in the poring rail to read the meter anymore.

 

Please enlighten me of the risks, I do have an open mind and perhaps I can as you say, "look both ways" to avoid a pitfall.   

 

This has been explained  to you before...

 

You have NOT been told you have been screwed over, you have been told that you WILL be screwed over in the future.

 

At the moment, you are benefitting from a good deal, which in retail terms is called a "Loss Leader" TO GET enough customers signed up so that "instant pricing" can be brought in to force / control demand down at moments of energy supply stress - not always, but probably usually at peak times of the day.

 

I whole heartedly agree with you about wanting / needing to reduce consumption - for many reasons.

 

 

Kev.

[phil-b259]

On 25/11/2022 at 08:18, hayfield said:

 

If real time pricing comes in it matters not whether you have a smart meter or not (those without will be defaulted into a higher price band

 

 

This is not in dispute

 

However as has been pointed out many times, this real time pricing can only come in once the majority of meters are of the smart type.

 

The longer it takes to reach that majority the longer it takes for real time pricing to be adopted.

 

As I happen to being able to heat and light your home is a fundamental human right and the statistics show us the people who suffer most from fuel poverty are those on the margins of society (the low paid, those living in substandard housing, etc), real time' fuel pricing is simply a way for the rich to get richer!

 

[hayfield]

15 minutes ago, SHMD said:

 

This has been explained  to you before...

 

You have NOT been told you have been screwed over, you have been told that you WILL be screwed over in the future.

 

At the moment, you are benefitting from a good deal, which in retail terms is called a "Loss Leader" TO GET enough customers signed up so that "instant pricing" can be brought in to force / control demand down at moments of energy supply stress - not always, but probably usually at peak times of the day.

 

I whole heartedly agree with you about wanting / needing to reduce consumption - for many reasons.

 

 

Kev.

 

Kev 

 

Thank you, one of the three items partially explained, but how certain I will not may. There might be a time when all are asked for the benefit of stopping power cuts that electricity for a certain period may be more expensive. The argument put forward forgets to remind us dual pricing is with us now. both Economy 7 and some EV over night charging at a lower rate than I am paying. Just because you don't have a smart meter will not insulate you from price rises at peak times, you will pay more all the time !! Perhaps its not smart meter users that will be "screwed" but dumb meter users

 

But you have not answered the statements that I have been pressured and or conned into having one. 

 

I have been part of the experiment where we have been paid for reducing our import over a 1 hour period, I call it a benefit which I volunteered to take part in

[phil-b259]

On 28/11/2022 at 09:46, hayfield said:

 

You missed the point totally, if smart meters were of no use commercial entities would not install them.

 

 

Smart meters are very useful - if you are a Government / electricity company and don't want to dig into your profits / spend cash on investing in renewing the energy network or making UK  housing stock massively more energy efficient.

 

Domestically however smart meters are only of use to you (the householder) if you have the ability to adjust the amount of fuel you use. For middle- and upper-income home owners this is relatively painless - but huge numbers of the most vulnerable in society can only do that by depriving themselves of heat or light.

 

[hayfield]

1 minute ago, phil-b259 said:

 

This is not in dispute

 

However as has been pointed out many times, this real time pricing can only come in once the majority of meters are of the smart type.

 

The longer it takes to reach that majority the longer it takes for real time pricing to be adopted.

 

As I happen to being able to heat and light your home is a fundamental human right and the statistics show us the people who suffer most from fuel poverty are those on the margins of society (the low paid, those living in substandard housing, etc), real time' fuel pricing is simply a way for the rich to get richer!

 

 

Real time pricing has been with us for years, at the moment the main worry is at peak hours and those of us who can should reduce what we use for the benefit of those who need it. The alternative choice is power cuts !! this is far worse

 

Fuel poverty and substandard housing is not what smart meters is about.

[hayfield]

3 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Smart meters are very useful - if you are a Government / electricity company and don't want to dig into your profits / spend cash on investing in renewing the energy network or making UK  housing stock massively more energy efficient.

 

Domestically however smart meters are only of use to you (the householder) if you have the ability to adjust the amount of fuel you use. For middle- and upper-income home owners this is relatively painless - but huge numbers of the most vulnerable in society can only do that by depriving themselves of heat or light.

 

 

This has nothing to do with the topic, please keep politics out of it otherwise the thread will get locked

[phil-b259]

1 minute ago, hayfield said:

 

The alternative choice is power cuts !! this is far worse

 

 

Nope.

 

The alternative is SPENDING MONEY on new generation facilities.

 

The cold hard truth is for years the energy companies have been shirking their responsibilities in this regard wile sweating the assets for all they are worth to provide shareholders dividends while the Government sit back and say 'its up to the free market'

 

Smart meters are simply more of the same - more excuses for 6the industry and the Government to do nothing while making life even more miserable for those who are already at the margins.