GENERAL ELECTION 8th June

[Mallard60022]

As I will be busy elsewhere this weekend and this topic is veering ever further away from its intent I'll give notice that this will be locked at the end of the working day today.

Good and thank you, saves me getting thrown off RMWeb for eventually losing it and 'having a go'.

I enjoyed the 'ride' until a few pages back and then things got well away from the intended theme.

Phil 

[Neil]

Likewise my thanks too. I've enjoyed the opportunity to air my views, to listen to what others have had to say and to engage in debate. One topic looming on the near horizon will I think be the governments air pollution strategy and what the political ramifications might be.

[hayfield]

John, it's Britain that decided to leave, so it should be the UK to make the first step and guarantee EU citizens the right to stay first   Anything else is swapping cause and effect, or perhaps even twisting the truth

 

 

Again

 

I accept you have your own thoughts on this matter and see them from the other side of the fence. The view from our side is totally different.

 

What other club wants to punish you when you decide to leave. I can think of plenty of criminal who rule by fear and because of their own insecurity wish to make examples of those wishing to go.

 

If being in the EU was so good, whats the need to punish anyone wanting to leave? or make life difficult ? why are they so worried others may leave ? its a free world !!

 

I dont agree with most of Mr Farages rants, but the EU is behaving like the Mafia or other criminal gang, ruling with fear and threats of (financial) punishment

[hayfield]

Phil

 

.....and that is why a lot of 'immigrants' are feeling really really worried.

I do hope this works out for you all.

Phil

 

 

This is what I believe is what is on the table to the EU, but before any offer is made we must be assured that those from the UK will be equally treated. The goverments first priority is to its own citizens, end of

 

Having said this, we need the skills that some EU migrants can bring to us as much as they need the jobs. This should be a win win to both sides, but politicians gave got in the way.

[hayfield]

I liked most of your post until this bit. Nationally it is only banned in state controlled "arenas", such as the state prefectures, and other sensitive areas, where such disguises can shield a man of nefarious intent. A "public place" is a different definition from that with which we are familiar under UK descriptions. Thus, you will still find many tens of thousands of burka-wearers, let alone cross-wearers, turban-wearers and so on, across almost all of Paris, and all of France, except where defined. The most newsworthy examples of where this had been taken to extremes, on the beaches of the Riviera, are where the local, municipalities are controlled by the Front National. One such "maire" has been disowned by the FN. It also, partly explains, but does in no way justify I emphasise, the Nice attack, and previous and subsequent terrorist attempts by even nastier people.

 

FN has always been extremely strong in the very, very rich South East of France, where industrial decline, national identity and lack of affordable housing are not exactly their key priorities, especially with the influx of dirty Russian, Chinese and other money (and horrifically uncouth nouveau-riche, "ultra" nationals, who do not believe that they have any duty towards the needs of others, whether in a bar, restaurant or on a beach, let alone as a neighbour), in amounts rivalling London. Mme Le Pen claims FN is not a racist, semi-fascist or spectacularly anti-Islamic party, but her members (and her father) clearly believe otherwise. The dispossessed in the NE and many rural parts of France have adopted her as their only salvation, in true Trump fashion. Hopefully, the act of the EU now passing their dossier, regarding over 0.5 billion euros of misused funds (putting UKIP into the amateur bracket), to the French judicial prosecutors, and the extraordinary declaration that the Russian invasion of the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine were perfectly reasonable (due to the massive influx of Russian finance into her campaign) will see the end of this disgusting rabble.

 

FN support Brexit. Only saying.....

 

 

Mike

 

I have no issues with those wearing scarves, turbans, skull caps etc. Some where these (and always have done) for religious reason. there are also those who are not religious wearing head garments. No issues here at all

 

Its hiding your face, for example no problem wearing crash helmets whilst riding a bike, or a balaclava if the weather is very cold. However  not when going into a space where their is cash, security recognition is required or where human interaction is needed. You may say a sentence, now are you telling a joke and being ironic or are you concerned ?.

 

The little I know I have the feeling France has gone a little too far, whilst others whilst giving groups more freedom may think this freedom may be being abused at times

 

The sentence of "when in Rome do as the Romans" is in my opinion is good council, making you think "are my actions in keeping with the circumstance I find my self in"

 

But it is a two way street, others should consider the effects of their actions on others

[hayfield]

I was wondering when we would get there.

During the referendum posters appeared in a certain part of East London with wording something like below.

George Galloway

Nigel Farage

Boris Johnson

Vladimir Putin

Marine le Pen

and Isis

All support Brexit.

Who do you stand alongside?

 

Just quoting.

The turn out was over 70% remain from memory.

Bernard

 

 

Bernard

 

This is the problem Vladimir Putin, Marine le Pen and Isis. Have nothing to do with Brexit. The others were campaigning, whether they did any good is another question. 

 

What really grated with me was the intervention of foreigners which ever side they were supporting. This was a UK matter which should have had no outside interference, let alone threats. Personally I feel this interference helped push the voters to leave

[antrobuscp]

Before this thread is locked, I would just like to say that I'm pleased it has been allowed to run as it has - it has been a very interesting read. Thanks to all who have taken part and to Andy for letting it run.

 

Whilst this thread is not Brexit specific, I can't help thinking that, had the opposing sides encouraged more discussions like this rather than indulging in, eg, peurile publicity stunts on the Thames, the referendum result, whatever it may have been, would have at least been the decision of a better informed electorate.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Almost all our politicians came out poorly from the referendum campaign, and I suspect that this is a contributory factor to the strong feelings of some who feel another vote is necessary.

 

It is my personal belief that had the arguments been put more plainly and honestly in the two referenda on the EEC/EU, we would not have stayed in when we did, but having stayed in we would not now be coming out.

 

Colin

[Purley Oaks]

Likewise I'm pleased that the thread has been allowed some lateral, thanks Andy.

 

Interesting Brexit piece on the Guardian website just now that Europe could allow a united Ireland to join EU after Brexit, following the GDR clause (when the former DDR or East Germany joined West Germany in 1990).

 

Wonder how that will affect the country? Is this what Dave C had in mind when he called the EUref? C'est la vie!

 

Mal

 

[The Lurker]

I would have thought that voting to remain in NI is a very different proposition to voting to join the Republic just to be in the EU. Would the protestants really do that?

 

In the same way, anecdotally a large number of voters for Scottish Independence also voted to leave the EU, hence Mrs Sturgeon's hesitancy; as I understand it the SNP's current desire is to be independent of the UK but within the EU.

[Purley Oaks]

Absolutely!

 

Nationalists, too, may prefer, say the NHS to the Republic of Ireland's not-quite-so-good health service.

 

Scotland is interesting just now with the conservatives set to become the SNP's main opposition in terms of Scottish constituency Westminster MPs, also that not every SNP voter is pro-EU. On the other hand many Tories, Lib-Dems and Labour supporters are in favour of remaining in the EU - but a large number of those favour the Union with England and Wales.

 

It's going to be an interesting few months...

 

Mal

[Ohmisterporter]

I have enjoyed this thread and learned quite a lot, despite the repetition and going round in circles and occasional personal attacks (not on me I might add). Hayfield and others have mentioned interference by foreigners as a factor in the Brexit vote, on both sides I might add. I was undecided about Brexit though really disliking the Project Fear campaign that Cameron and Osborne were running. I don't think they understood the British dislike of being bullied and sheer bloody mindedness when we are threatened. What tipped me into the Leave camp was the intervention by Obama who said that if Britain voted Leave we would go to the back of the queue for trade deals with the USA. At the time he said that we had a young man in our extended family serving in the British army in Afghanistan alongside his American counterparts. His job was mine clearance. That the POTUS placed such low value on British contribution to his country's war really pissed me off, when we had people coming home with missing limbs or in body bags.We were thankful that our man and his mates worked through their tour without serious casualties. But my resentment stayed.

 

As for Poles coming to Britain, I will just say that I was a baby boomer born in 1946 and went to school with several children who had Polish names from their fathers, who had been serving in the forces here and married local women. I learned to pronounce Polish names too, which is more than some of our news readers can manage.

[rockershovel]

Re #906, the SNP are a typical example of the complexity of the situation. The SNP have a clear and obvious incentive to remain within the EU - as Scotland are classed as a single EU Region, the SNP would be well placed to become the de-facto local administration. In an independent UK they would simply be a minority party, with (as is being widely suggested) the effect of keeping Labour out of office by the prospect of alliance or coalition.

[Guest]

I have a huge aversion to politics being discussed on a forum such as this, because it's usually only a matter of time before two or more folk go at each other. Bad feeling etc is the only possible result. That said, I am impressed (on the whole) by this thread and against my better judgement got sucked into it once or twice.

Before it's locked, one final thought from me, and by my own admission, I know very little of some of the things that have been discussed.

When casting my vote, I will do my best to see the bigger picture, but I fear my choice will be simple. There are only a few things that concern me and are likely to have an impact on myself and my family. These few things are my primary concern and any other concerns I may have are likely to be ignored on polling day. I do hope that does not make me ignorant. It probably just makes me one of many, many millions of others that focus on the things that affect them to the exclusion of everything else.

I have learnt a lot from this thread, however.

[APOLLO]

For me the main decider to vote out is the future direction that Europe is taking. The EU has stated openly that it want's ever more and closer Europe, a superstate of 28 countries plus more yet to join - all "ruled" by the strongest member - Germany. Just look at the actions and speeches of Mrs Merkel. "States will take there share of (German) immigrants or will face consequences, and yesterday this

 

BERLIN — Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany warned Britain on Thursday not to harbor “illusions” that it can negotiate a deal on future relations with the European Union while simultaneously negotiating its departure from the bloc.

Future relations can be negotiated only after the terms of the exit have been agreed upon, Ms. Merkel told Germany’s Parliament on Thursday.

“I have the feeling that some people in Britain still have illusions on this score,” she said. “That would be a waste of time.”

Ms. Merkel was not more specific, but as a leader known for choosing her words carefully, her warning about the high costs of leaving Europe could be interpreted as a subtle message for voters in France, Britain and Germany itself.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/27/world/europe/angela-merkel-germany-britain-brexit.html?_r=0

 

Since when has she spoken for all of Europe / the EU ?

 

No thanks - I do not want that. (again I'll not mention the war(s) !!!)

 

Out - and bl**dy quickly too. I'm a Wiganer (99.99% Labour) and I'm voting Conservative, this time for a valid reason, my country's future.

 

Brit15

[ian]

This thread has certainly been exceptionally well mannered despite the wide and diverging views expressed. Why can't the various OO track and Hormanpol GWR ashpan colour threads be this well behaved?

 

As is usual with any election in this country the truth will be hidden in what isn't mentioned rather than the negative campaigning and character assasination that normally go on. (Not mentioning any group in particular - they all do it.) It will be followed by the usual disappointment/outrage/resignation as someone gets in and starts back-pedalling on their promises.

 

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose. (Sorry, being a lazy British type I can't be bothered to go off in search of characters with the correct accents. Mind you - misplace an apostrophe and I'll hound you down!)

[hayfield]

I have enjoyed this thread and learned quite a lot, despite the repetition and going round in circles and occasional personal attacks (not on me I might add). Hayfield and others have mentioned interference by foreigners as a factor in the Brexit vote, on both sides I might add. I was undecided about Brexit though really disliking the Project Fear campaign that Cameron and Osborne were running. I don't think they understood the British dislike of being bullied and sheer bloody mindedness when we are threatened. What tipped me into the Leave camp was the intervention by Obama who said that if Britain voted Leave we would go to the back of the queue for trade deals with the USA. At the time he said that we had a young man in our extended family serving in the British army in Afghanistan alongside his American counterparts. His job was mine clearance. That the POTUS placed such low value on British contribution to his country's war really pissed me off, when we had people coming home with missing limbs or in body bags.We were thankful that our man and his mates worked through their tour without serious casualties. But my resentment stayed.

 

As for Poles coming to Britain, I will just say that I was a baby boomer born in 1946 and went to school with several children who had Polish names from their fathers, who had been serving in the forces here and married local women. I learned to pronounce Polish names too, which is more than some of our news readers can manage.

 

 

Geoff

 

I really do agree with you on this one, I don't thing I went to school with any Polish lads, plenty from the Commonwealth, a few from Italy, Israel etc. We always have been a country of migrants.

 

I like most others have no problems with those who wish to bring their skills which we need to this country. Lets face it since time in memorial our country has had visitors from mainland Europe.

 

But my firm belief that when in a trading pack, all Europe was doing fine. But as soon as we got into a political union it was down hill.

 

I still cannot see what the issue is in leaving the EU though, we still want to trade with them and I guess they want to trade with us, except they now have competition as we will ditch the trade barriers and inflated protectionist prices, they will have to be competitive. 

[Neil]

Again

 

I accept you have your own thoughts on this matter and see them from the other side of the fence. The view from our side is totally different.

 

What other club wants to punish you when you decide to leave. I can think of plenty of criminal who rule by fear and because of their own insecurity wish to make examples of those wishing to go.

 

If being in the EU was so good, whats the need to punish anyone wanting to leave? or make life difficult ? why are they so worried others may leave ? its a free world !!

 

I dont agree with most of Mr Farages rants, but the EU is behaving like the Mafia or other criminal gang, ruling with fear and threats of (financial) punishment

 

To be fair this isn't a universally held view here in the UK.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

As example, we received Emmanuel Macron's policy programme (even tho not eligible to vote ourselves) through the door a few weeks before the French Presidential first round vote. It is 32 crammed pages long and full of explanations and examples of how his policies would work. He won, and will probably win the second round. Only three other candidates bothered leafletting us - all were just two sides of one piece of paper. They lost.

 

I too have direct experience of using printed matter hand delivered, detailing local issues and what the candidate I was 'managing' would do about it if elected. A large Tory majority and a 30 year incumbent were trounced.

 

A few of the electorate did say that they were swayed by the material we delivered. It is surprising how quickly one can post these flyers. It sometimes took longer to compile them and get them printed. Ignore colour and use coloured paper at the printers. Any colour is fine it really makes no odds.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I expect Poland would be happy with that, Spain and France perhaps less so.

Twice as many French here as Brits in France.

 

For Spain, I would think the Brits there are an essential part of the economy in some areas such as Benidorm.

[Neil]

Here's an interesting point of view about democracy and why tactical voting might be a good thing.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Here's an interesting point of view about democracy and why tactical voting might be a good thing.

 

Not that many constituencies this time round where tactical voting is likely to make a difference.

 

LibDems going about it differently by not putting up a candidate against Caroline Lucas (Green) in Brighton Pavilion.

[fozzy280472]

[quote name="APOLLO" post="2703835" timestamp="1493384810")

 

Out - and bl**dy quickly too. I'm a Wiganer (99.99% Labour) and I'm voting Conservative, this time for a valid reason, my country's future.

 

Brit15

 

 

This is the post of the thread .....we are going to leave the EU ....that's it .

It's ALL of our responsibility to ensure the UK gets the best deal coming out of the EU for the country , I don't mean hard or soft brexit I mean real negotiation, not being worried about upsetting or appeasing different countries just to be nice or in some misguided idea that if were nice people will like us in the UK it just doesn't work like that.

I wouldn't say I'm a Tory but I will vote for them in the GE simply because I believe only by solid concerted negotiation can we make the best of the situation we are in , we really don't need the likes of the Lib Dems slowing every decision down as some kind of punishment for the brexit vote .

I think an awful lot of people need to realise that the people voted to leave , not the government, it's now the government's responsibility to act on the democratic people's decision.

People also need to realise that by using their vote as a protest vote actually may cause problems for the country in the long run during the forthcoming negotiation and in my opinion that's quite a childish attitude to take and worst quite foolish.

 

Cheers

Paul

[Joseph_Pestell]

I am hoping that Andy will unlock us again after his well-deserved break.

 

In case he does not, I need to get something off my chest. Labour was the Party in Government at the time of the financial crash of 2007/8. But Labour did not cause that crash despite the weasel words used by the Conservatives and the LibDems, Nick Clegg especially, to make the electorate believe that it was.

 

Given the extent of that banking crash, the consequences could have been far worse than those experienced in the late 20s / early 30s. That was avoided by all Governments, not just the Labour Govt in the UK, spending more public money and borrowing more than they would otherwise have done. Had the Tories been in Govt in 2008, nothing would have been handled very differently.

 

The National Debt continues to increase in absolute terms although with some economic growth it represents a lower percentage of annual GDP, a measure by which we have always looked quite good internationally, including in 2010.

[ian]

Twice as many French here as Brits in France.

 

For Spain, I would think the Brits there are an essential part of the economy in some areas such as Benidorm.

 

As the individual countries won't be negociating any attempt to sway the necociations by leaning on/calling in favours/sweet-talking specific nations is pointless. The EU countries and commission have (or will have) agreed what the negociating team can and can't offer, what can be traded, what is the least the EU will accept and what, ideally, they would like.

 

The UK team will have a similar list.

 

There is an interesting question of what happens if no deal is reached by the end of the two years. Plenty of scope for brinkmanship, last minute concessions and much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[Rivercider]

We voted to leave, but where are we going?

If the wheels come off the Brexit negotiations I would be interested to know the different implications between a bad deal and no deal,

 

cheers